I had a couple encounters/discussions with Indian languages the last couple of days and it got me to thinking.
Okay, so on Saturday I wound up seeing the movie Lion, about this lost 5 year old kid in India who winds up being adopted into Australia. He winds up getting separated from his family and gets stuck on a train travelling to Calcutta. He only speaks Hindi (the most popular Indian language), but people in Calcutta speak Bengali, so he's not really able to communicate with anyone. Intellectually I knew there were/are multiple languages spoken in India, but it's not really something that often comes to mind.
Then on Sunday I took Timmy to a WHL game, but we also took one of the kids who comes to our house after school who is equally mad about hockey, and also invited his dad who came along. They are as you could have guessed, south Asian. At some point when I was talking with his dad about hockey, he mentioned them trying to grow the game, including Hockey Night in Canada's Punjabi-language broadcasts. I asked him if he spoke Punjabi and how good were they, and he replied that no, he spoke Gujarati at home.
Now Edmonton has a sizeable South Asian community, and we frequently have to order interpreters for court. But when it comes to South Asians, I swear every single time it is Punjabi that we need.
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US. That would explain why the CBC would choose Punjabi as the language of it's HNIC broadcast. But when I look at India/Pakistan, there are only about 100 million Punjabi speakers out of 1.2 billion Indians, and Punjabi is way down the list in terms of popular languages.
So why is it that Punjabis / Sikhs are so much more likely to emigrate to the West than other Indians? Google has pretty much failed me at this point.
Well their province was split in the 1947 partition which resulted in something like 1 million people dying. Sikhs are a not entirely embraced minority in both countries.
Probably something to do with those things if I were to guess.
Punjabis were considered a "martial race," and the British Raj drew its native officers and peasant levies heavily from the province. This led to the socio-political advancement of Punjabi landowner families, who generally retained their status after independence--especially in Pakistan, where there was no land reform the military controls the deep state. Given that emigrants tend to come from the wealthier and more educated strata, that probably has something to do with it.
They have a higher relative GDP/C than other Indian races from what I've seen.
I'm skeptical Punjabis are the majority in the US. I see a billion Patels (Hindu speaking Guajratis) running motels and stop and robs, not that many turban heads.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 31, 2017, 07:07:41 PM
I'm skeptical Punjabis are the majority in the US. I see a billion Patels (Hindu speaking Guajratis) running motels and stop and robs, not that many turban heads.
patel isn't some indian last name like johnson?
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Quote from: LaCroix on January 31, 2017, 07:17:00 PM
patel isn't some indian last name like johnson?
It is.
oh
Not too many of those sorts of injuns up in your neck of the woods I guess.
Yeah Patel is pretty common. Of course so is Singh. And there are also the vowel soup last names like Vijayakumaran.
Patel reflects a caste as well. It means something like landowner. I think it's related to the English name "Payne", Most south Asian immigrants come from the higher castes.
Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2017, 07:25:25 PM
Not too many of those sorts of injuns up in your neck of the woods I guess.
Yeah Patel is pretty common. Of course so is Singh. And there are also the vowel soup last names like Vijayakumaran.
one of the two only indian-indians I've ever met in north dakota was a patel, and she said she could only marry other patels. she was a canadian.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2017, 07:26:35 PM
Patel reflects a caste as well. It means something like landowner. I think it's related to the English name "Payne", Most south Asian immigrants come from the higher castes.
I don't think it is a 'Varna' type situation though. That is what we normally think of 'Caste'.
That sounds like a 'Jati' which is more like a class system as I understand.
But I always found it very confusing. Probably because it is very confusing :P
Think it depends on your location. A lot of Tamils in Ontario, both from Sri Lanka and india
Canada I can definitely see. Can't walk a block in Canada without bumping into a Singh.
Quote from: Valmy on January 31, 2017, 07:38:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 31, 2017, 07:26:35 PM
Patel reflects a caste as well. It means something like landowner. I think it's related to the English name "Payne", Most south Asian immigrants come from the higher castes.
I don't think it is a 'Varna' type situation though. That is what we normally think of 'Caste'.
That sounds like a 'Jati' which is more like a class system as I understand.
But I always found it very confusing. Probably because it is very confusing :P
Think of Jatis as occupations, within the caste system. Subcastes, in other words. Varnas are the traditional four castes, while jatis number in the thousands. We speaks of castes, but Hindus (and many non Hindus) speak mostly of jatis. The offense on the football team is a caste, and each position group is a jati.
Speaking of India and football you can always remember the rhyme: 'Bobby Singh won all three rings' if anybody ever asks you who the only player in professional football history was to win the championship in three different leagues (in his case the NFL, CFL, and XFL).
I feel like Gujarati last names are way more common (Patel, Shah, Desai, Amin, etc). But similar story to the Punjabis... definitely over represented relative to their population back in India (4%). Gujarat is one of the most economically prosperous parts of India. I guess they have their shit together when it comes to visa applications.
Who are the indian shit heads who run the smelly convenience stores, sketchy gas stations and nasty motels?
Love the Indian doctors though. When I can understand them. Seem to like getting into urology.
I have an Indian doc. Name is Sarin. But he's 2nd gen.
I had an Indian doc. His name was Israel and he was Christian. Dude was all over the place.
Quote from: HVC on January 31, 2017, 09:37:56 PM
I had an Indian doc. His name was Israel and he was Christian. Dude was all over the place.
Lacks focus.
My roommate in College was Indian. His last name was Thomas and his family had been Christians for centuries. And he was second generation and had a thick west Texas accent. So boy was I surprised when we first met in person and he was an Indian guy.
I don't currently know any Indians, aside from Gupta and Garbon.
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2017, 02:34:12 PM
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US.
Where did you find that information? Because I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find anything that clearly breaks down the linguistic/regional origin of Indian-Americans.
Quote from: dps on February 01, 2017, 05:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2017, 02:34:12 PM
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US.
Where did you find that information? Because I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find anything that clearly breaks down the linguistic/regional origin of Indian-Americans.
Only main thing I found was mentions that Indian immigrants in US primarily come from Punjab or Gujarat.
I hear that the Bangladeshi population is growing rapidly as well. Seems weird that their Indian Bengali neighbors might not be.
I am skeptical it is really that regional. I suspect most parts of India are well represented in the US.
Pretty fertile rural place, albeit with major urban centres and not too far from Delhi so they're not entirely bumpkins?
The Punjabis in the British army leading the way?
I have heard that back in the 50s when bulk labour was being recruited for the British factories that muslims and sikhs were very well looked upon as there was some racist belief about their religion making them better and more subservient workers than the hindus.
I have to say that is a very bizarre stereotype to have of Sikhs.
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2017, 09:04:48 AM
I have to say that is a very bizarre stereotype to have of Sikhs.
It is Jos.
I can't find the actual quote now but its not something I'm making up. It is a viewpoint that was believed at the time.
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2017, 09:04:48 AM
I have to say that is a very bizarre stereotype to have of Sikhs.
Not really when you think about it. The Sikhs even to this day make up a disproportional amount of the armed forces of India. In the British Empire days it was even more so.
Being in the army is all about discipline and following orders. Exactly the qualities you want from your shop floor workers.
Quote from: garbon on February 01, 2017, 09:14:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2017, 09:04:48 AM
I have to say that is a very bizarre stereotype to have of Sikhs.
It is Jos.
He "has heard" pretty much anything he wants to believe is true.
Quote from: dps on February 01, 2017, 05:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2017, 02:34:12 PM
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US.
Where did you find that information? Because I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find anything that clearly breaks down the linguistic/regional origin of Indian-Americans.
I would withdraw the comment that Punjabis are the majority in the US. But it does appear to be true for Canada and the UK.
Quote from: Barrister on February 01, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: dps on February 01, 2017, 05:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2017, 02:34:12 PM
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US.
Where did you find that information? Because I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find anything that clearly breaks down the linguistic/regional origin of Indian-Americans.
I would withdraw the comment that Punjabis are the majority in the US. But it does appear to be true for Canada and the UK.
There are a lot of Punjabis in the UK but they aren't a majority. They make up about 45% of the UK diaspora.
A few of half-baked theories as to why Punjabis are over-represented:
- Partition. Millions of Punjabis lost their homes due to partition and may have been more willing to emigrate as a result (and this was at a time when the UK was encouraging immigration and had open borders to the Commonwealth)
- Caste - many upper caste Hindus believes they would lose caste if they went overseas. That view is not widespread now but it was during the grat waves of Asian migration in the 50s and 60s. Sikhs did not take this view.
There are also a lot of Gujaritis here following their expulsion from Uganda.
Other big communities are Bengalis (mainly from Bangladesh and mainly in the restaurant trade) and Tamils
Quote from: Gups on February 01, 2017, 10:57:35 AM
Quote from: Barrister on February 01, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: dps on February 01, 2017, 05:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2017, 02:34:12 PM
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US.
Where did you find that information? Because I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find anything that clearly breaks down the linguistic/regional origin of Indian-Americans.
I would withdraw the comment that Punjabis are the majority in the US. But it does appear to be true for Canada and the UK.
There are a lot of Punjabis in the UK but they aren't a majority. They make up about 45% of the UK diaspora.
A few of half-baked theories as to why Punjabis are over-represented:
- Partition. Millions of Punjabis lost their homes due to partition and may have been more willing to emigrate as a result (and this was at a time when the UK was encouraging immigration and had open borders to the Commonwealth)
- Caste - many upper caste Hindus believes they would lose caste if they went overseas. That view is not widespread now but it was during the grat waves of Asian migration in the 50s and 60s. Sikhs did not take this view.
There are also a lot of Gujaritis here following their expulsion from Uganda.
Other big communities are Bengalis (mainly from Bangladesh and mainly in the restaurant trade) and Tamils
Not just Uganda. East Africa in general became pretty hostile to Gujaratis during/after decolonization. My (2nd gen Indian) girlfriend's family owned a store in Mombasa which was burned down by black rioters in the 60s. They applied to the UK and US simultaneously, but ended up in the US.
Quote from: grumbler on February 01, 2017, 10:30:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 01, 2017, 09:14:09 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2017, 09:04:48 AM
I have to say that is a very bizarre stereotype to have of Sikhs.
It is Jos.
He "has heard" pretty much anything he wants to believe is true.
Why would I want to believe that? What benefit is there to lying about a random obscure fact? :blink:
the stereotype iirc is their religion makes them crazy good fighters. I don't think I've heard the one that says their religion makes them loyal
Quote from: LaCroix on February 01, 2017, 11:24:01 AM
the stereotype iirc is their religion makes them crazy good fighters. I don't think I've heard the one that says their religion makes them loyal
Just ask Indira Gandhi.
Mainly Gujaratis in my neighbourhood, both Muslim and Hindu.
I'd prefer to include Bangladeshis and Pakistanis in the totals though, the current setup is an aberration :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on February 01, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: dps on February 01, 2017, 05:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2017, 02:34:12 PM
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US.
Where did you find that information? Because I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find anything that clearly breaks down the linguistic/regional origin of Indian-Americans.
I would withdraw the comment that Punjabis are the majority in the US. But it does appear to be true for Canada and the UK.
I'm not saying that you were wrong, just that I can't find any information one way or the other.
Quote from: dps on February 01, 2017, 12:27:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 01, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: dps on February 01, 2017, 05:03:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on January 31, 2017, 02:34:12 PM
So I started looking it up. In most countries, Sikhs / Punjabis (as I understand it all Sikhs speak Punjabi, but not all Punjabi-speakers are Sikhs) Punjabi-speakers form the majority of South Asians in Canada, as well as in the UK and US.
Where did you find that information? Because I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find anything that clearly breaks down the linguistic/regional origin of Indian-Americans.
I would withdraw the comment that Punjabis are the majority in the US. But it does appear to be true for Canada and the UK.
I'm not saying that you were wrong, just that I can't find any information one way or the other.
I went back and did more searching, best I could find was a news article from India reporting on US census results, which showed Hindi as the most popular "Indian" language in the US, with Punjabi back in 4th or 5th place.
I was hoping Gupta would be able to enlighten me, but if he can't, then there's probably no easy answer to the patterns and distribution of the Indian diaspora.
The one factor though is immigration patterns can be self-re-inforcing. Once the first immigrants get established, they sponsor in their family (who then in turn sponsor in more family). One a city becomes established as having a large community, other resources such as churches/temples, newspapers, restaurants, and the like come along, which encourages even more immigration. Maybe that's all that's been happening.
Don't forget that the vast majority of Punjabis are Muslim. 100m Punjabis are Mulsim compared to about 15m Sikhs and maybe 10m Hindus. Punjabi is more of a Pakistani language than an Indian one - west Punjab in Pakistan has 5 times the population of its Indian neighbour