This just in:
Michael Jackson is still dead.
Are we : sure?
In related news his Arcade Collection is awesome.
http://www.pinsane.com/pinorama/events/MJ_09/kr/michael_jackson_arcade_entry.html (http://www.pinsane.com/pinorama/events/MJ_09/kr/michael_jackson_arcade_entry.html)
Newsflash! Michael Jackson to be buried without his brain!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on July 06, 2009, 11:33:37 AM
Newsflash! Michael Jackson to be buried without his brain!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/
He'll be buried as he lived.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on July 06, 2009, 11:33:37 AM
Newsflash! Michael Jackson to be buried without his brain!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/
I like how the article ends with the most totally useless fact.
QuoteMICHAEL Jackson starred as the Scarecrow in The Wiz, the 1978 musical version of The Wizard of Oz – playing the character without a brain opposite Diana Ross as Dorothy.
Do NOT diss The Wiz. :mad:
I was scared of the scene in The Wiz where the trashcans try to eat them.
Which color Dorothy was hotter?
Quote from: Barrister on July 06, 2009, 11:19:55 AM
This just in:
Michael Jackson is still dead.
So is McNamara :contract:
Quote from: Viking on July 06, 2009, 12:23:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 06, 2009, 11:19:55 AM
This just in:
Michael Jackson is still dead.
So is McNamara :contract:
As is Generalissimo Francisco Franco, for that matter. -_-
From the Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1197780/Ghost-Michael-Jackson-caught-camera-pacing-corridors-Neverland.html
Quote from: Daily Mail on July 06, 2009, 11:19:55 AM
'Ghost' of Michael Jackson caught on camera pacing the corridors of Neverland
By Julian Gavaghan
Last updated at 1:39 PM on 06th July 2009
Everyone loves a ghost story.
But only the most one-eyed of Michael Jackson fans could see anything in the latest supposedly creepy goings-on at Neverland.
Footage from a TV crew's tour of the King Of Pop's now deserted ranch, which appeared on the respected Larry King show in the US, has been seized on by believers of the supernatural.
They are trying to persuade YouTube visitors that a shadow filmed in one of the unending hallways is actually Jacko's ghostly presence.
The alleged sighting is the latest in a string of bizarre rumours to emerge after his death nearly two weeks ago.
These include reports the late singer will tour the world via hologram and that he will be buried without his brain.
Neither Miko Brando - the son of screen legend Marlon - nor his cameraman noticed the spectre during their trip to the California ranch.
But after it was posted on YouTube, rumours have spread like wildfire across the internet.
Viewer comments and chat forums have debated in earnest the possibility that the shadow belongs to Jackson himself.
Jackson was a huge fan of JM Barrie's Peter Pan, the little boy who never grew up (as the name of his ranch suggests) and lost his shadow before Wendy sewed it back on.
On YouTube, one user said: 'Yes, that is MJ, even the hair style silhouette everything..!! Immortal!'
Another wrote: 'That is so weird. I have played it over five times now and I have to admit that it does resemble MJ. I can't believe I am saying that actually. It's his image.'
But others were not so convinced.
'It is the shadow of a TV crew person in the room, idiot people. Get a grip... that's not genuine ghost footage!' wrote tubs1000.
Looks like the reflection of a person walking by behind the camera reflecting off the glass and then the camera lens. Meh. You knew shit like this would happen though. Elvis haunts Graceland too, right?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 06, 2009, 01:20:46 PM
Looks like the reflection of a person walking by behind the camera reflecting off the glass and then the camera lens. Meh. You knew shit like this would happen though. Elvis haunts Graceland too, right?
Elvis is still alive.
I think I mentioned this before, but I still miss Bill Clinton:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090707/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_haiti_bill_clinton_jackson
Quote"He was an immensely gifted man and I think he basically meant well," Clinton told The Associated Press. "I know about all the trouble he had in his life and I hope he will be remembered for his contribution as an artist. I hope his children turn out well. That would be the greatest tribute you could have."
Yowch :lol:
Quote from: Josephus on July 06, 2009, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 06, 2009, 01:20:46 PM
Looks like the reflection of a person walking by behind the camera reflecting off the glass and then the camera lens. Meh. You knew shit like this would happen though. Elvis haunts Graceland too, right?
Elvis is still alive.
The king is not dead. He just went home.
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 06, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
Are we : sure?
In related news his Arcade Collection is awesome.
http://www.pinsane.com/pinorama/events/MJ_09/kr/michael_jackson_arcade_entry.html (http://www.pinsane.com/pinorama/events/MJ_09/kr/michael_jackson_arcade_entry.html)
Thats just set me away investigating making arcade machines :s
This thing had started when I left for work and was still going at lunch time.
It's longer than Das Rheingold and Gotterdammerung combined! :mad:
Hey guys, have you heard?
Michael Jackson died last week. That like totally got eclipsed by the global economy crisis, the revolts in Iran and China, the coup in Honduras and Sarah Palin resigning. :(
Quote from: Martinus on July 07, 2009, 04:34:48 PM
Michael Jackson died last week. That like totally got eclipsed by the global economy crisis, the revolts in Iran and China, the coup in Honduras and Sarah Palin resigning. :(
If only
Ok, I've had enough of Michael Jackson now. Move on, media :frusty:
Quote from: Caliga on July 08, 2009, 07:56:02 AM
Ok, I've had enough of Michael Jackson now. Move on, media :frusty:
All they needed to make the service perfect was keyboard cat.
Hard to believe that the girl is his daughter.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmagazine.web.de%2Fimages%2F728%2F8482728.jpg&hash=7768a274cb43680c68e6c8376b7d9ab67b4ea7ca)
Agree, her nose looks much too natural. :mad:
Looks like the Jackson family got a 3 for 1 deal at the nose clinic.
Funnier before fucking Caligula tossed his shitty ass line in there. <_<
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 08, 2009, 08:08:12 AM
All they needed to make the service perfect was keyboard cat.
:D
I was working out at the gym yesterday and they had all three cable news 'Michael Jackson 24/7' stations going. Except Fox blamed Michael Jackson's death on Obama and MSNBC blamed his death on Bush.
Anyway they had a story that he had children with a good friend of his who was blonde with blue eyes because he wanted kids who were bonde with blue eyes. Man that guy really really liked white people god bless him.
Prince #1 looks a lot more like MJ imo.
:huh: You dudes don't seriously think he's biologically related to any of them, do you?
Quote from: Caliga on July 08, 2009, 09:43:41 AM
:huh: You dudes don't seriously think he's biologically related to any of them, do you?
They sure don't look like it...
But even before MJ started doing whatever the fuck he did to his skin he was a pretty light skinned black dude right? I suppose it is possible....
err... was he? I think he was at least medium-toned, or whatever you want to call it.
Quote from: Valmy on July 08, 2009, 09:44:54 AM
Quote from: Caliga on July 08, 2009, 09:43:41 AM
:huh: You dudes don't seriously think he's biologically related to any of them, do you?
They sure don't look like it...
But even before MJ started doing whatever the fuck he did to his skin he was a pretty light skinned black dude right? I suppose it is possible....
:huh: He wasn't that light skinned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt9TUy0_GiM
Their mother is white. Could have gone either way.
Quote from: Caliga on July 08, 2009, 09:50:12 AM
err... was he? I think he was at least medium-toned, or whatever you want to call it.
Paper bag brown?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2009, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: Caliga on July 08, 2009, 09:50:12 AM
err... was he? I think he was at least medium-toned, or whatever you want to call it.
Paper bag brown?
Caramel?
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 08, 2009, 10:19:21 AM
Caramel?
Never heard caramel. Heard cafe au lait, mocha, never heard caramel.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2009, 10:20:29 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 08, 2009, 10:19:21 AM
Caramel?
Never heard caramel. Heard cafe au lait, mocha, never heard caramel.
This color:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fanniemay.com%2Fassets%2Fitems%2FVanilla-Caramel500.jpg&hash=573dc8d55526b7cb0d2d2a100c20e5f1c7ab88b0)
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 08, 2009, 10:08:02 AM
Their mother is white. Could have gone either way.
Typically Mulatos tend to mix traits than look fully one or the other though. Hence the 'Yellow Rose of Texas' song.
I suppose it is possible for the white traits to win out...but for all three of his kids?
First 2.
#3 is a clone.
I thought that the mother already said Jacko wasn't the biological father.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on July 08, 2009, 11:30:55 AM
I thought that the mother already said Jacko wasn't the biological father.
If by 'the mother' you mean Debbie Rowe, IIRC she's never confirmed or denied that fact.... out of love and respect for MJ, she claims*.
*the real reason no doubt being some sort of bribe from the Jackson empire.
Ahh...yeah, apparently she was artificially inseminated, but wouldn't say who the sperm belonged too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-513206/My-life-mother-Michael-Jacksons-children-Debbie-Rowe.html
QuoteShe befriended Jackson and - like a schoolgirl with a crush - offered to bear him children when he spoke about his longing to be a father.
Incredibly, some kind of agreement was struck, and in early 1996 she was artificially inseminated, possibly through IVF, though she refuses to talk about the details. Whether it was with Jackson's sperm or an anonymous donor's - more likely given the light-coloured skin of the children she produced - Rowe is not saying.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 08, 2009, 10:20:29 AM
Never heard caramel. Heard cafe au lait, mocha, never heard caramel.
Really? Well it is pretty common.
No matter where the 3 kids comes from, rest asured that the Jackson Family will fuck up their lives soon enough... <_<
Quote from: Mr.Penguin on July 08, 2009, 11:50:13 AM
No matter where the 3 kids comes from, rest asured that the Jackson Family will fuck up their lives soon enough... <_<
Unless Siege fucks the daughter first.
Quote from: Syt on July 08, 2009, 11:58:00 AM
Quote from: Mr.Penguin on July 08, 2009, 11:50:13 AM
No matter where the 3 kids comes from, rest asured that the Jackson Family will fuck up their lives soon enough... <_<
Unless Siege fucks the daughter first.
They will just make Siege part of their freak show, he will fit right in, one way or another...
Hey, at least it'll be safe sex.
:lmfao: Ironically I literally just now got off the phone to have that functionality: tested. :blush:
Quote from: Caliga on July 08, 2009, 12:09:20 PM
Ironically I literally just now got off the phone to have that functionality: tested. :blush:
They do that over the phone now? :o
Quote from: Syt on July 08, 2009, 12:14:42 PMThey do that over the phone now? :o
Yes. On a note which may or may not be related, I need to find some Kleenex. :(
:lmfao:
QuoteMichael Jackson 'tried to adopt Nadya Suleman's octuplets'
Michael Jackson tried to adopt Nadya Suleman's octuplets just months before he died, it has been reported.
Published: 9:05AM BST 03 Jul 2009
The King of Pop is alleged to have offered to pay Miss Suleman to look after her children.
According to her publicist, Victor Munoz, he promised her children "wouldn't need for anything" for he turned down the "creepy" offer on her behalf.
The 50 year-old singer, who died last week after a suspected heart attack, has three children – Prince, 12, Paris, 11, and seven-year-old Prince Michael II, known as Blanket.
But Munoz claims he was called three times by the star's representatives who asked questions about Miss Suleman and told him Jackson wanted to help.
Jackson is also said to have called personally. He was apparently concerned by reports that Miss Suleman, 33, an unemployed single mother who already has six other children, was planning on putting the octuplets up for adoption.
Malia, Jonah, Isaiah, Nariah, Jeremiah, McCai, Josiah and Noah were the product of IVF and were born in January.
Their mother admitted on network television that she was "struggling" and her mother, Angela, openly criticised her decision to have more children as "unconscionable".
According to Munoz, speaking to the Daily Mirror, Jackson told him "Blanket would love to have more siblings".
"I could take care of all the babies, they could live with me and wouldn't need for anything. They would have a bright future," he is said to have told him.
"I want to take care of Nadya. She will be happy and won't have to worry about caring for her children any more."
Munoz said he had received many hoax calls since the news broke, making headlines around the world, and initially thought the calls were a wind-up.
"When the person on the end of the line said 'Hi it's Michael Jackson' I was a bit taken aback. Michael wanted to know how the babies were, how Nadya was coping," he said.
"He then said he could take care of the children if Nadya couldn't. It was creepy. He was basically offering to buy the children. I was a bit shocked.
"Michael clearly thought Nadya was unfit and decided he wanted to help those children."
Munoz, a former estate agent who has since fallen out with Suleman, claims the first contact made by the Jackson camp was by an aide in February.
"The man asked how Nadya was holding up, how the children were and said that his client wanted to help. The conversation meant nothing to me, my head was overloaded with all the calls coming in," he said.
He said that several days later, he received a call from a man claiming to be Jackson's attorney.
"It was more of the same. This guy was asking about the family and how everything was going. I thought it was weird they kept calling, I realised they were trying to become friendly. To me that meant they wanted something," he said.
The third call came from Jackson himself, he claims.
"Afterwards I went on to YouTube to listen to Michael Jackson's voice. I couldn't believe he had called me directly," he said.
"A number of people, some celebrities, had asked about adopting but none had called me in person. The implication was that if Nadya decided to give the kids up Michael Jackson wanted to be first in line.
"It wasn't as if he was trying to broker a deal there and then. But he made it clear he wanted to adopt them. He sounded genuine. He was genuinely concerned about the children. He asked if they were all going to be healthy.
"But I just blew it off. I knew Nadya would never want to get rid of her kids so it wasn't important."
He said that the final call came two days later, from an aide.
"This guy was really giving me the sales pitch," he said. "It was almost like I was supposed to take the hint. He told me Michael could make Nadya happy, he said she would be compensated."
He admitted he never told Miss Suleman about Jackson's offer and stopped working for her in March.
"I was going to tell her about the calls. It was all kind of a joke. She would have loved it as she gets star-struck," he said. "But we had started arguing a lot by this time. It was like working with a child, she was completely draining."
Holy shit that is hilarious. That is right out of a comedy routine.
:yes: It really does sound like an SNL skit, doesn't it?
Hell, there's a good chance it's not true, but it's still amusing.
OMG OMG OMG!!!!!! :o
QuoteJoe Jackson: "Omer Bhatti is Michael's Secret Son"
KTLA News
8:36 AM PDT, July 30, 2009
LOS ANGELES -- Joe Jackson has confirmed that a 25-year-old aspiring rapper from Norway, is actually Michael Jackson's fourth child.
In an interview posted on NewsOne.com, Joe Jackson talks about Omer Bhatti and told the reporter that he knew Michael had another child.
"Yes, I knew he had another son, yes I did," Jackson said in the video.
He also discussed Bhatti's dancing abilities and his resemblence to the Jackson clan. "He looks like a Jackson, acts like a Jackson, can dance like a Jackson," he said.
As a child, Bhatti often traveled with Jackson and even lived at the singer's Neverland ranch.
Court records show Bhatti was living at Neverland when authorities raided the estate in 2003 looking for evidence of child molestation.
Bhatti was briefly interviewed by investigators and was initially on the defense's list of prospective witnesses.
But he was never asked to testify.
At Jackson's memorial at Staples, Bhatti was prominently seated in the front row next to the pop star's children and siblings.
Bhatti is also said to be seeking a DNA test to determine whether Jackson is in fact his father.
Jackson's brother Jermaine has said Bhatti would be welcomed into the family, if he's proven a Jackson.
"If Omer's his son, he's his son," Jermaine told Britain's the Daily Mail. 'We won't deny it. We are going to give him the same love and care that we give Prince and Paris and Blanket. I can't clearly say if he is Michael's but I saw this kid around him."
In 2004, Us Weekly reported that Jackson did, indeed, acknowledge that he was the father.
A source told the magazine: "Jackson has told his closest associates Omer's mom's was a Norwegian with whom he had a one-night stand."
Now if this is his biological son, could he try to force out the other jackson "kids" who sure as hell share no genetic lineage?
I don't know, but I'm sure if he can he'll try. :)
I heard a clip of that interview on the radio. It sounded like both the interviewer and Joe Jackson were asleep.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on July 06, 2009, 11:33:37 AM
Newsflash! Michael Jackson to be buried without his brain!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/
He's not buried yet? ewwwww.
That Norwegian dude does look like Jacko.
so..
hows your junk, Caliga?
Quote from: Jaron on July 30, 2009, 05:38:59 PM
so..
hows your junk, Caliga?
Amazingly large, as always. :)
Quote from: Caliga on July 30, 2009, 11:06:50 AM
LOS ANGELES -- Joe Jackson has confirmed that a 25-year-old aspiring rapper from Norway, is actually Michael Jackson's fourth child.
I believe that his age would make him his first child. :contract:
I've seen that "fourth child" thing repeated by multiple sources; it sounds odd to me, too.
Quote from: Caliga on July 30, 2009, 06:20:29 PM
Quote from: Jaron on July 30, 2009, 05:38:59 PM
so..
hows your junk, Caliga?
Amazingly large, as always. :)
:console:
There are companies that can help you with that you know.
http://www.1800gotjunk.com/
Quote from: Caliga on July 30, 2009, 06:20:29 PM
Quote from: Jaron on July 30, 2009, 05:38:59 PM
so..
hows your junk, Caliga?
Amazingly large, as always. :)
Whatchu gonna do with all that junk? Gonna get Jaron drunk?
QuoteWe are going to give him the same love and care that we give Prince and Paris and Blanket.
What? He called one of his children Blanket?
No, that would be crazy.
The childs name is actually Prince Michael II.
Quote from: Jaron on July 30, 2009, 08:24:43 PM
No, that would be crazy.
The childs name is actually Prince Michael II.
So deadpan. :lol:
The Drama Continues
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8192030.stm
QuoteMark Lester, a former child star and long-time friend of Michael Jackson, says he could be the father of one of the late pop star's children.
Speaking to the News Of The World, Lester said he had donated sperm to the King of Pop and was willing to take a paternity test.
"I believe Paris could be my daughter," he said, and noted she bore a physical resemblance to his daughter, Harriet.
Calls to Lester's home in Cheltenham were not immediately returned.
The 51-year-old, who rose to fame playing Oliver Twist in the 1968 film of the stage musical, had been friends with Jackson for nearly 30 years.
He is godfather to Paris, 11, and Jackson's two other children, 12-year-old Prince, and Prince Michael II, seven.
Jackson suffered a cardiac arrest at his Los Angeles home on 25 June at the age of 50.
His mother, Katherine, became the permanent guardian of his three children last week.
Welfare concerns
In a video on the News Of The World website, Lester said he had come forward at this time "because I have concerns about the welfare and upbringing of the children".
"There's a contact issue," he added. "I dearly want to remain in contact with those kids and I feel now this is the only way that I can ensure that."
The former actor, who now works as an osteopath, also detailed how the arrangement with Jackson had come to pass.
Mark Lester, a former child star and long-time friend of Michael Jackson, says he could be the father of one of the late pop star's children.
Speaking to the News Of The World, Lester said he had donated sperm to the King of Pop and was willing to take a paternity test.
"I believe Paris could be my daughter," he said, and noted she bore a physical resemblance to his daughter, Harriet.
Calls to Lester's home in Cheltenham were not immediately returned.
The 51-year-old, who rose to fame playing Oliver Twist in the 1968 film of the stage musical, had been friends with Jackson for nearly 30 years.
He is godfather to Paris, 11, and Jackson's two other children, 12-year-old Prince, and Prince Michael II, seven.
Jackson suffered a cardiac arrest at his Los Angeles home on 25 June at the age of 50.
His mother, Katherine, became the permanent guardian of his three children last week.
Welfare concerns
In a video on the News Of The World website, Lester said he had come forward at this time "because I have concerns about the welfare and upbringing of the children".
"There's a contact issue," he added. "I dearly want to remain in contact with those kids and I feel now this is the only way that I can ensure that."
The former actor, who now works as an osteopath, also detailed how the arrangement with Jackson had come to pass.
His name is Mark, but he goes by Mo. :)
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 09, 2009, 02:57:51 PM
Speaking to the News Of The World, Lester said he had donated sperm to the King of Pop and was willing to take a paternity test.
I guess that's
one way to put it.
QuoteReport: Coroner rules Michael Jackson's death a homicide
Thomas Watkins / Associated Press
Los Angeles— A law enforcement official tells The Associated Press that the Los Angeles County coroner has ruled Michael Jackson's death a homicide.
The finding makes it more likely criminal charges will be filed against the doctor who was with the pop star when he died.
The official says the coroner determined a fatal combination of drugs was given to Jackson hours before he died in his rented Los Angeles mansion on June 25. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the findings have not been publicly released.
Forensic tests found the powerful anesthetic propofol in Jackson'' system along with two sedatives, the official says.
Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson's personal physician, is the target of a manslaughter probe headed by Los Angeles police.
I was just gonna post that.
Trial of the century coming up.
Defense:
1: Jacko asked him to do it. (crazy option, but hey they guy was crazy)
or
2: Jacko took the sedatives and doc didn't know about it. The propofol plus those did him in. (pretty likely, IMO)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 24, 2009, 04:23:57 PM
Defense:
1: Jacko asked him to do it. (crazy option, but hey they guy was crazy
I don't think that is a defense in california.
He still isn't burried, is he? Even in death the guys a freak show.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 24, 2009, 04:23:57 PM
2: Jacko took the sedatives and doc didn't know about it. The propofol plus those did him in. (pretty likely, IMO)
Timing and tox levels would be everything in that defense- regardless of superstar status, I'm pretty sure Jacko's doctor was bound to do routine bloodwork to avoid just such an occurrence.
Doc looks screwed to me.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/2009/08/24/michael-jackson-s-medical-homicide-what-the-coroner-s-announcement-really-means.aspx
Quote
Full Post
Posted Monday, August 24, 2009 7:14 PM
Michael Jackson's Medical Homicide: What The Coroner's Announcement Really Means
Newsweek
Michael Jackson's death took a bizarre turn this afternoon when the Los Angeles County Coroner's office announced it'd found the anesthetic propofol, usually used in general surgery, and two other sedatives to have caused the singer's death in June. The drugs were no surprise—court testimony earlier this week established early on that Jackson was on myriad medications the day he died. The big shock came when the coroner announced that the death was being labeled a homicide.
It's important to note that homicide indicates that Jackson was killed; it does not, necessarily, mean he was murdered (homicide with intent to kill); many previous medical homicide cases have involved euthanasia. The Los Angeles County DA has not yet announced murder or manslaughter charges against Jackson's physician,Conrad Murray, who admits to giving Jackson the drugs.
Besides the fact that it made Jackson family whisperings of a conspiracy sound slightly less crazy, the homicide announcement left us wondering: what does medical homicide even mean? How do you draw the line between medical homicide and malpractice? And is as bad as it sounds?
Advertisement
Click here to find out more!
Yes, actually. NEWSWEEK's Sarah Kliff spoke with Dr. Vincent DiMaio, editor of the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology and former chief medical examiner in Baxter County, Texas about what constitutes medical homicide, what doesn't and why it's actually not too difficult to tell the difference. Excerpts:
By classifying this death as a homicide, what is the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office saying about the actions of Jackson's doctor?
What they're alleging is that [Michael Jackson's doctor] gave [Jackson] a medication for a non-medical reason and that caused the death...The reason they can classify this as a homicide is that there is simply no medical reason for this drug to have been administered. Suppose he was in surgery, and the doctor had given him too much medication. That's a different situation which would probably be signed off on as an accident. But in this situation, it's clearly a homicide.
In general, how do you define a medical homicide? What makes it different from medical malpractice?
There are five ways that forensic pathologists categorize deaths: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide or undetermined. Essentially, homicide means that somebody has caused the death of another person...In terms of medical homicide specifically, I think the simplest way to say it is that it's a medical decision that's outrageous, that you could not justify your actions medically. Or you just go to extremes, like deciding to do an operative procedure for which you don't have the support, doing an operation on your kitchen table. That's essentially the way to say it: if you have a medical situation, where you're using things inappropriately and have no medical justification, that's homicide.
Is it difficult, in medical situations, to draw a line between accident and homicide? Are there cases that fall in between?
Usually, it's actually really simple. If the doctor makes a mistake, you have records and other people who were in the room, and it would mostly be classified as malpractice. If it's reasonable, and you screw up, it's not going to be homicide. When you do something that's really out there, that makes absolutely no medical sense at all, something like this, that's when it's no longer malpractice.
What about the Jackson case clearly indicates it was a homicide?
Even though there was no intention to kill, what he did was so beyond what normal people would consider reasonable medicine that it gets classified as a homicide. There was no medical justification and, besides that, he was using an anesthetic without an anesthesiologist. So not only do you have no medical justification, you also don't have the right support system in place.
Will it be possible for the doctor to argue his case as a medical mistake, a case of negligence, not homicide?
You just can't argue this one. Here's the problem question for him: what is the medical justification for giving him this drug? And that's where they've got him, because there is no medical reason for the situation he was in. He wasn't even doing an operative procedure and there was no anesthesiologist. Moreover, he's an internist. Even if the drug were warranted, the conditions would be inappropriate. It's not his specialty, its not internal medicine and there were no support personnel.
How often do medical homicide cases come up in forensic pathology?
Very rarely. You do get some situations where doctors do medical procedures that are not recognized, causing the death of a patient, but most of these are medical malpractice. Most of the homicide cases that I know of are euthanasia, which is a bit different. It just gets to the point that, for something to be categorized as homicide, it would have to be something really gross, where there's no real justification for what they are doing.
How does the Jackson case fit into the history of forensic pathology?
It's completely unusual, not something that anyone, myself included, would ever expect to encounter. The only cases called homicide, that I know of, were where it was intended [the euthanasia cases]. But there's nothing to this level.
I wonder what the doctor was thinking when he did that.
So a new single is released, This Is It. Bad still should've been that.
Doc to be charged on Monday.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson-death6-2010feb06,0,319714.story
QuoteD.A. to charge doctor in Michael Jackson case
Prosecutor will file charges against Dr. Conrad Murray on Monday, officials say. The action comes after negotiations on his surrender bogged down, sources say.
By Harriet Ryan, Jack Leonard and Richard Winton
February 6, 2010
The Los Angeles County district attorney's office will file a criminal case against Dr. Conrad Murray on Monday, authorities said, capping an eight-month police investigation into Michael Jackson's death and ending days of intense speculation about when the singer's personal physician would be charged.
Official confirmation of an impending criminal prosecution in the Jackson matter came Friday in a press release in which the district attorney's office took the unusual step of announcing charges in advance. The move seemed designed to temporarily quell a media frenzy that had drawn a hundred reporters and a fleet of television trucks to a courthouse near LAX on Friday morning in anticipation of imminent charges.
The statement from prosecutors said a case pertaining to Jackson's death will be filed at that courthouse, but did not name Murray or specify the charges. Numerous sources with knowledge of the case said the cardiologist will be charged with involuntary manslaughter for administering the combination of sedatives and anesthetic blamed in the singer's June death.
Prosecutors originally planned to file the case Friday, according to law enforcement sources, who said the case was delayed after a dispute arose with Murray's defense team Thursday over the details of his surrender.
Murray, who owns a home in Nevada and works in Houston, has been staying in the Los Angeles area as he awaits charges. Through his attorney, the doctor has said he wants to turn himself in rather than be arrested and has made arrangements for surrender, including gathering his passport and meeting with bail bond companies.
But how bail should be set became a sticking point during negotiations between prosecutors and the defense, according to two law enforcement sources and Murray's lawyer, Ed Chernoff.
Prosecutors wanted Murray to make a formal court appearance in which a judge would evaluate the specific circumstances of the case, set the amount of bail and dictate any restrictions on his movements, according to law enforcement sources who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.
Murray's lawyer said negotiations broke down because authorities insisted on "a photo op" of the physician in handcuffs.
Chernoff said Murray wanted to turn himself in at a police station and post the $25,000 bail that is the court-set standard for involuntary manslaughter charges. The bond would allow him to walk out of the police station and remain free pending a formal arraignment, Chernoff said.
He said prosecutors asked Murray to agree not to post bail at the police station so he could be taken into custody, transported to a courthouse by police and brought before a judge, the lawyer said.
"I told them there is no way that I'm going to let my client sit in jail so you can have your show and parade him into court in handcuffs," Chernoff said. "That's when they pulled the plug."
A district attorney's spokeswoman disputed Chernoff's account, saying prosecutors were never interested in "a photo op" involving Murray.
"That's an absolute lie," said spokeswoman Sandi Gibbons. "There was never any consideration of a 'perp walk' or him being brought into a courtroom in handcuffs."
Gibbons said discussions about a defendant's terms of surrender are common.
It's unclear whether the issue was resolved. In a statement, the district attorney's office said information about the arraignment would be released after Murray is charged. Involuntary manslaughter, which refers to an unlawful killing committed without malice, intent to kill or a conscious disregard for human life, carries a maximum sentence of four years in prison.
Murray acknowledged to police that he gave Jackson an intravenous dose of the powerful anesthetic propofol shortly before his death, according to court documents.
The drug is intended for use in operating rooms by trained anesthesiologists. Murray told police that the singer had a long history of using the drug to sleep and he was trying to wean Jackson from it the week he died, the documents state.
I feel kinda sorry for the guy. I hate how many sources are portraying that as a greedy doc killing a man of pure innocence. Instead, we have a creepy multimillionaire freak bribing a doc to drug him up because his nose fell off.
Seriously, I never got Jackson's phenomenon. He had some good songs, yeah, but they were not a different league than at least a dozen of other contemporary artists. And unlike those other artists, he was a disgusting creep.
I think the thing with Michael Jackson is he showed extraordinary talent from a very young age. As an adult, his fame and popularity were without peer in the 1980s. It wasn't until the child molestation charges came out and the weird 90s and 2000s that people started to take a step back from him.
The man was a legend during his life, no one else has reached the level he reached since.
Oh right, except Kylie and Madonna, right? :P
I'll take Freddie Mercury in terms of voice/music talent and Madonna in terms of showbiz talent over Michael any time of the day. His music was kinda sucky. His voice was whiny.
You're fucking crazy, Micheal's voice was brilliant and his dancing unsurpassed.
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 03:35:18 AM
I'll take Freddie Mercury in terms of voice/music talent and Madonna in terms of showbiz talent over Michael any time of the day. His music was kinda sucky. His voice was whiny.
You are entitled to your opinion, but it would seem the majority of the human race disagrees with you. :P
I'm not a big Michael Jackson fan personally but I can recognize and appreciate the man was extremely talented at what he did, even if his personal life was very disturbing.
80s Michael Jackson ruled. He looked great, made awesome songs, sang and danced like a god. He was huge in a way no artist has been since (at least in Sweden).
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 06, 2010, 03:40:48 AM
You're fucking crazy, Micheal's voice was brilliant and his dancing unsurpassed.
Tainted.
So his fanbase is composed of retarded cripples, Mexican'ts and animal fuckers? Fitting. :homestar:
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 04:17:22 AM
So his fanbase is composed of retarded cripples, Mexican'ts and animal fuckers? Fitting. :homestar:
You wonder why no one likes you. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Jaron on February 06, 2010, 04:18:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 04:17:22 AM
So his fanbase is composed of retarded cripples, Mexican'ts and animal fuckers? Fitting. :homestar:
You wonder why no one likes you. :rolleyes:
I thought you liked me. :cry:
I do but you are now in your mid 30s and still throwing you childish "I must always be right" tantrums.
WAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 04:21:22 AM
Quote from: Jaron on February 06, 2010, 04:18:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 04:17:22 AM
So his fanbase is composed of retarded cripples, Mexican'ts and animal fuckers? Fitting. :homestar:
You wonder why no one likes you. :rolleyes:
I thought you liked me. :cry:
Ironically he won't pick this fruit.
80's Michael Jackson was the shit.
Quote from: The Brain on February 06, 2010, 04:24:44 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 04:21:22 AM
Quote from: Jaron on February 06, 2010, 04:18:37 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 04:17:22 AM
So his fanbase is composed of retarded cripples, Mexican'ts and animal fuckers? Fitting. :homestar:
You wonder why no one likes you. :rolleyes:
I thought you liked me. :cry:
Ironically he won't pick this fruit.
:lol: Asshole.
Tim, I'm with Marti on this one. The guy was good, definitely. However, a popular craze doesn't necessarily mean he was "unsurpassed." Freddie Mercury, Jon Anderson from Yes... I don't know that much about pop, but I know of a few singers, at least in other genres, who had him outclassed.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 06, 2010, 08:56:06 AM
Tim, I'm with Marti on this one. The guy was good, definitely. However, a popular craze doesn't necessarily mean he was "unsurpassed." Freddie Mercury, Jon Anderson from Yes... I don't know that much about pop, but I know of a few singers, at least in other genres, who had him outclassed.
I believe that term was used in regards to his dancing. He may have been surpassed there as well, but probably not by Freddie Mercury. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on February 06, 2010, 03:23:23 AM
I never got Jackson's phenomenon. He had some good songs, yeah, but they were not a different league than at least a dozen of other contemporary artists. And unlike those other artists, he was a disgusting creep.
It's pretty simple, really. In the early 80's, Jackson was one of the first already-established stars to fully embrace music videos, and generally his videos were much more creative than those that the other established artists were putting out (granted, partly because unlike a lot of other videos, they weren't shot on the cheap--far from it). And we didn't know at the time how creepy he would become.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 06, 2010, 09:12:44 AM
I believe that term was used in regards to his dancing. He may have been surpassed there as well, but probably not by Freddie Mercury. :lol:
Eh. He can have that one. Dancing is the devil's undulations (can't dance/don't dance/hate dancing). :P
Quote from: dps on February 06, 2010, 10:21:04 AM
It's pretty simple, really. In the early 80's, Jackson was one of the first already-established stars to fully embrace music videos, and generally his videos were much more creative than those that the other established artists were putting out (granted, partly because unlike a lot of other videos, they weren't shot on the cheap--far from it). And we didn't know at the time how creepy he would become.
Even knowing all that, Thriller is still an awesome video.
Quote from: Syt on July 08, 2009, 08:20:15 AM
Hard to believe that the girl is his daughter.
<img snip>
She isn't. :contract:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/28/debbie-rowe-michael-is-no_n_222027.html
Michael Jackson is still dead. News at 11. :ph34r:
Why the fuck do i have to wait till 11 to hear more!
Quote from: katmai on February 06, 2010, 07:41:12 PM
Why the fuck do i have to wait till 11 to hear more!
What else you gotta do?
Monkey Butt scores again.
Asshole.
Quote from: Korea on February 06, 2010, 12:57:01 PM
Quote from: Syt on July 08, 2009, 08:20:15 AM
Hard to believe that the girl is his daughter.
<img snip>
She isn't. :contract:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/28/debbie-rowe-michael-is-no_n_222027.html
:rolleyes: She also said she lied. Anyway, its his kids. Prince even talks like him.
The Doctor is guilty.
Meh.
Doctor who? :bowler:
that really isn't news on Michael Jackson.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 07, 2011, 07:24:38 PM
The Doctor is guilty.
You too are guilty, Timmay...of THREAD NECROMANCY MOST FOUL.
Poor Doc. I don't think anyone among us could have denied Michael his "milk" (propofol) when he begged for it to find peace in the abyss of dreamless sleep. He wasn't keeping MJ doped up out of his mind on painkillers or whatever, he was just helping him live out his sad life.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 07, 2011, 09:48:11 PM
Poor Doc. I don't think anyone among us could have denied Michael his "milk" (propofol) when he begged for it to find peace in the abyss of dreamless sleep. He wasn't keeping MJ doped up out of his mind on painkillers or whatever, he was just helping him live out his sad life.
WTF is this bullshit? It's either a poorly thought troll attempt or just rambling nonsense.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 07, 2011, 10:17:40 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 07, 2011, 09:48:11 PM
Poor Doc. I don't think anyone among us could have denied Michael his "milk" (propofol) when he begged for it to find peace in the abyss of dreamless sleep. He wasn't keeping MJ doped up out of his mind on painkillers or whatever, he was just helping him live out his sad life.
WTF is this bullshit? It's either a poorly thought troll attempt or just rambling nonsense.
I'm completely serious. You don't think a personal physician for a deeply troubled celebrity develops a close relationship with him, wants to make him happy, and wants to relieve his suffering?
IIRC, Michael had debilitating insomnia that didn't respond to all the benzos, and thought he needed the propofol to get some sleep. (By all accounts it worked very well since it is a surgical anesthetic.) Of course, propofol is not normally administered outside the hospital, but they had apparently been using it with such success that Michael called it his milk and would plead for it to get to sleep.
I think the doc honestly cared for Michael, gave him a dose of meds that they had used many times in the past, and then had him unexpectedly die.
The home propofol administration is more than a little weird, but it is not an addictive drug of abuse that the doc sinisterly pumped MJ full of, or like Elvis's, wildly overprescribed thousands of pills that were clearly being abused.
Correct me on the facts if I'm mistaken, I haven't really paid much attention since the beginning of the inquest a while ago.
Refreshing my memory, it seems to me that the doctor was clearly negligent to some degree. But without trying to get a sense of California law on this, I don't think he should have been convicted of manslaughter. Medical board discipline and the inevitable suit by MJ's heirs for medical malpractice/wrongful death seem to fit the scenario. I think the doc must have been culpably negligent (for administering propofol in the first place) but the scenario was pretty unique:
-- His patient was by all accounts not in robust health and elected for various "unorthodox" medical interventions:
QuoteJackson's chronic inability to sleep was one of many odd details of his life to emerge from the trial, along with such mundane things like his food preferences to strange medical decisions.
Jackson's chef, Kai Chase, told the court that the notoriously thin star had penchants for beet juice and almond milk. He insisted on healthy food for himself and his three children and wanted lunch served at 12:30 p.m. every day.
Through evidence and testimonies, it was also revealed that Jackson received injections of Botox in his armpits and groin and wore a urninary catheter while sleeping.
The autopsy also showed that he had all sorts of early-onset health problems, like osteoarthritis, IIRC. Maybe one or some of these latent conditions were a factor that the doc couldn't/didn't know about.
-- He seems to have had a close emotional relationship with MJ that may have led him to err on the side of gratifying his friend and relieving his suffering, rather than following responsible protocol.
-- MJ actively demanded the propofol; it wasn't forced on him by a total charlatan. There was some kind of mutual bargaining going on concerning its administration.
-- The drug in question did not expose MJ to addiction, intoxication, or withdrawals. It was intended to treat a specific, severe symptom. Again, compare with the real Dr. Feelgoods of Hollywood writing scripts for celebrities of whatever they want, or the doctors who actively got celebrities hooked on problem drugs.
-- The same combo of benzodiazepines and propofol seems to have been administered frequently in the past without ill effects. These are not drugs that build up in your system to eventually have fatal consequences: an overdose is a one-time thing. The doctor might have assumed, if not reasonably but at least understandably, that it would continue to be a safe dose. His testimony of course is that he was trying to get MJ off of the propofol.
Again, I'm not attempting a cod-legal analysis. Maybe all this meets the elements of involuntary manslaughter in Calif. But I find hard to comprehend the fury of Michael Jackson supporters against the doctor who MJ selected and who MJ induced to give him the ultimately fatal drug.
I think the ultimate point is that doctors are people as well as medical professionals, and prone to human emotions, attachments, and weaknesses.
The doc didn't seem to act with gross clinical negligence or a wanton disregard for MJ's well-being.
So you can distinguish it from a situation in which a doc forgot the surgical sponges or put the obviously wrong solution in the IV because he was drunk or just didn't give a shit.
You can also distinguish it from the situation where a doc treated MJ's insomnia with the much more dangerous (in terms of overdose and dependency) barbiturates; or where he knew opiate prescriptions would mask a bunch of psychological and physical problems, and then got MJ addicted with a huge tolerance.
Off-label prescribing is enormous in the US (I think Neurontin is prescribed about 90% off-label) and there is nothing wrong with that. Propofol is a little more extreme, but I don't see the doc acting with callousness or recklessness or apathy or active bad intents.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 07, 2011, 09:48:11 PM
Poor Doc. I don't think anyone among us could have denied Michael his "milk" (propofol) when he begged for it to find peace in the abyss of dreamless sleep. He wasn't keeping MJ doped up out of his mind on painkillers or whatever, he was just helping him live out his sad life.
You are assuming that he wasn't hired or retained in the first place because of his willingness to give Jackson whatever he wanted. He cashed in rather nicely, while I assume a number of more ethical doctors did their ethical duty and turned down the payday.
Quote from: DGuller on November 08, 2011, 02:31:11 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 07, 2011, 09:48:11 PM
Poor Doc. I don't think anyone among us could have denied Michael his "milk" (propofol) when he begged for it to find peace in the abyss of dreamless sleep. He wasn't keeping MJ doped up out of his mind on painkillers or whatever, he was just helping him live out his sad life.
You are assuming that he wasn't hired or retained in the first place because of his willingness to give Jackson whatever he wanted. He cashed in rather nicely, while I assume a number of more ethical doctors did their ethical duty and turned down the payday.
Yes, that's a possibility. But giving Jackson what he wanted appears to have been just giving him something to knock him unconscious so he could get a few hours of sleep. That's why I emphasize the weirdness of propofol vs. standard drugs of abuse (Oxy, Opana, Percocet, Xanax bars, etc.)
EDIT: I'm also not sure that a doctor has an ethical obligation to turn down a prospectively difficult and lucrative patient; maybe that obligation attaches when the doctor-patient relationship becomes too strained. I'm also not convinced that a lapse in medical ethics (really misprescribing one drug) is worthy of a manslaughter conviction.
I'm sure not calling 911 for 20 minutes while your patient is dying had something to do with it as well.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 08, 2011, 01:45:37 AM
The doc didn't seem to act with gross clinical negligence or a wanton disregard for MJ's well-being.
Wanton disregard isnt the test nor is clinical negligence. You are right that the other examples you cited dont apply. But that doesnt matter. The defence was the Jackson injected himself. The defence then put itself in the difficult spot of trying to explain why Jackson had access to this very dangerous drug so he could inject himself.
Prima Facie allowing unsupervised access to the drug seems to be negligent.
Quote from: DGuller on November 08, 2011, 02:31:11 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 07, 2011, 09:48:11 PM
Poor Doc. I don't think anyone among us could have denied Michael his "milk" (propofol) when he begged for it to find peace in the abyss of dreamless sleep. He wasn't keeping MJ doped up out of his mind on painkillers or whatever, he was just helping him live out his sad life.
You are assuming that he wasn't hired or retained in the first place because of his willingness to give Jackson whatever he wanted. He cashed in rather nicely, while I assume a number of more ethical doctors did their ethical duty and turned down the payday.
Ethical doctors are hard to find.
He was hired because he was black. Which doesn't make any sense but there you go.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 08, 2011, 10:43:57 AM
Wanton disregard isnt the test nor is clinical negligence. . . . Prima Facie allowing unsupervised access to the drug seems to be negligent.
? I am confused about what you are saying the standard is. AFAIK involuntary manslaughter in CA requires proof of criminal negligence, which is akin to gross negligence, not simple negligence. In the CA model criminal jury instructions, the jury is instructed that they must find the defendant acted recklessly, or "so different from the way an ordinarily careful person would act in the same situation that his or her act amounts to disregard for human life or indifference to the consequences of that act."
So wanton disregard is pretty close to the test.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 08, 2011, 01:47:24 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 08, 2011, 10:43:57 AM
Wanton disregard isnt the test nor is clinical negligence. . . . Prima Facie allowing unsupervised access to the drug seems to be negligent.
? I am confused about what you are saying the standard is. AFAIK involuntary manslaughter in CA requires proof of criminal negligence, which is akin to gross negligence, not simple negligence. In the CA model criminal jury instructions, the jury is instructed that they must find the defendant acted recklessly, or "so different from the way an ordinarily careful person would act in the same situation that his or her act amounts to disregard for human life or indifference to the consequences of that act."
So wanton disregard is pretty close to the test.
Pretty close is good enough for nuclear weapons.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 08, 2011, 12:55:12 AMIIRC, Michael had debilitating insomnia that didn't respond to all the benzos, and thought he needed the propofol to get some sleep. (By all accounts it worked very well since it is a surgical anesthetic.) Of course, propofol is not normally administered outside the hospital, but they had apparently been using it with such success that Michael called it his milk and would plead for it to get to sleep.
That's the red flag, besides any other possibilities. Using an anesthetic intended for surgeries as if it was a sleeping pill is a huge no-no already.
An unreleased pro-life MJ track Abortion Papers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bsEQU_237cM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 24, 2012, 11:09:00 PM
An unreleased pro-life MJ track Abortion Papers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bsEQU_237cM
oh how I hate the term "pro-life".
The Michael Jackson Tribute seems to have fizzled out completely.
To recap, one of the Jackson brothers, with a local organizer who had him in his pocket, wanted to hold a tribute a month or so after his death here in Vienna, in front of Schönbrunn Castle. He first didn't have any line up at all, then announced a number of big name stars (all of which publically denied any such claims), had to return a lot of tickets, and basically, the whole thing crashed and burned a week before the scheduled date.
It was a rather fascinatingly depressing-hillarious freak show to watch.
The Jackson brother blamed the City of Vienna (their representatives shrugged) and announced a new tribute to be held on the On Year Anniversary of His Michaelness' Death in London. It seems nothing ever came off that, either.