:ph34r: :pope:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Templars_on_Stake.jpg)
QuotePope Francis's authority challenged by Knights of Malta over condom row
Ancient Catholic order refuses to cooperate with Vatican investigation into sacking of offical over distribution of condoms
Pope Francis is facing an extraordinary challenge to his authority from an ancient Catholic order that is refusing to cooperate with a Vatican investigation into the sacking of a top official over the distribution of tens of thousands of condoms.
The controversy has been simmering for weeks, but the Knights of Malta's rejection of the investigation – an unprecedented act in recent times – has now escalated the matter.
The conservative order said in a statement it intended to protect its sovereignty from official oversight and its members had the legal right not to cooperate with the Vatican investigation, which was approved by Pope Francis late last year, and is being led by the Vatican's second most senior official, the secretary of state, Pietro Parolin.
The fight is increasingly being seen not just as a battle over the investigation, but as a sign of the increasing anger and disobedience by some Catholic traditionalists who are opposed to Francis's papacy because they view him as too progressive on issues involving social doctrine.
"It is not just the fact that they are defying the pope's authority, but they are doing so using language that is disrespectful and confrontational," said Austen Ivereigh, who has written a biography of the pope. "It is as bad as it looks."
At the heart of the case lies the firing of the Maltese Order's grand chancellor, Albrecht von Boeselager, who was suspended on 8 December after he refused to resign after allegations that thousands of condoms were distributed in Myanmar by its charitable arm under his watch.
The Catholic church bans the use of contraception and Boeselager has said he stopped the practice when he learned about it.
The pope appointed a special commission to investigate the matter on 22 December, prompting an outcry from the order, which was founded in the 11th century in Jerusalem as the Knights Hospitaller. It came amid tension between Francis and the Vatican's top diplomat to Malta, the conservative US cardinal Raymond Burke, and reflected concern in the Holy See that Boeselager may have wrongly been told that the pope had blessed his firing.
Burke, who is known in particular for his views on so-called sexual morality, is one of four cardinals who challenged Francis last September when he asked the pope to submit yes or no answers to a series of questions about his call for priests to show "discernment" in their treatment of Catholics, such as divorcees, who live outside the church's rules.
The papal exhortation – called Amoris laetitia (Joy of Love) – was seen by some traditional Catholics as being too lax because it suggested some divorced and remarried couples could be offered holy communion.
"Burke is becoming a real thorn in the side of the pope. I suspect he is driving this [firing of Boeselager] and it is part of his obsession with sexual morality, as if this is the decisive feature of what it means to be Catholic and faithful to Jesus Christ when in fact scriptures say very little on these matters," said Robert Mickens, a veteran Rome-based Vatican journalist.
Ivereigh said the dispute was exposing deep differences between Francis's Vatican and the Maltese order.
"You are dealing here with a very profound culture clash within the Catholic church. Burke and the Knights of Malta represent in many ways everything that the church of the second Vatican council and Francis have been seeking to get away from," he said.
The Order of Malta is known for its extreme adherence to tradition, including in the importance of respecting its own hierarchy. It employs many trappings of a sovereign state, issuing its own stamps, passports and licence plates and holding diplomatic relations with 106 states, the Vatican included.
Its origins lie in the establishment of an 11th-century hospital in Jerusalem that cared for pilgrims of all faiths, and it now has 13,500 members and 100,000 staff and volunteers who provide healthcare in hospitals and clinics around the world.
Finally.
Send in the Swiss guard
Launch the galleys and raid Ostia!
Isn't the Pope supposed to be the Hand of God on earth? I mean... that's pretty ballsy to tell him no, if you actually believe the tenants of your religion. :ph34r:
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't the Pope supposed to be the Hand of God on earth? I mean... that's pretty ballsy to tell him no, if you actually believe the tenants of your religion. :ph34r:
:lol: good one. Props
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't the Pope supposed to be the Hand of God on earth? I mean... that's pretty ballsy to tell him no, if you actually believe the tenants of your religion. :ph34r:
The pope is still a man. Theoretically Peter was the first pope, and he famously thrice denied Jesus in the bible. Papal infallibility is only supposed to apply to when he is speaking ex cathedra.
he wasn't pope when he denied Jesus, I don't think.
Quote from: Josephus on January 11, 2017, 09:03:32 PM
he wasn't pope when he denied Jesus, I don't think.
I think he was. Jesus made him the pope, as I recall the story.
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't the Pope supposed to be the Hand of God on earth? I mean... that's pretty ballsy to tell him no, if you actually believe the tenants of your religion. :ph34r:
This is sad. I'm sorry for you.
Quote from: alfred russel on January 11, 2017, 08:49:30 PM
Theoretically Peter was the first pope, and he famously thrice denied Jesus in the bible.
AR has a particular fondness for liars that get away with it.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 11, 2017, 10:13:37 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 11, 2017, 08:49:30 PM
Theoretically Peter was the first pope, and he famously thrice denied Jesus in the bible.
AR has a particular fondness for liars that get away with it.
Catholicism is the right religion for me I guess. Confession is a pretty sweet set up.
Quote from: alfred russel on January 11, 2017, 11:05:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 11, 2017, 10:13:37 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on January 11, 2017, 08:49:30 PM
Theoretically Peter was the first pope, and he famously thrice denied Jesus in the bible.
AR has a particular fondness for liars that get away with it.
Catholicism is the right religion for me I guess. Confession is a pretty sweet set up.
Sure. But you're supposed to
mean it, you goofy sociopath.
There's another pope sitting around. The knights should get darth pope and start a schism.
Quote from: merithyn on January 11, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
Isn't the Pope supposed to be the Hand of God on earth? I mean... that's pretty ballsy to tell him no, if you actually believe the tenants of your religion. :ph34r:
I am just glad Sheilbh was not around to see this post.
Ha a new Schism. I think the castle in Avignon is still vacant :shifty:
Quote from: Archy on January 12, 2017, 06:56:04 AM
Ha a new Schism. I think the castle in Avignon is still vacant :shifty:
It became property of THE PEOPLE in 1791 -_-
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2017, 10:26:08 AM
Quote from: Archy on January 12, 2017, 06:56:04 AM
Ha a new Schism. I think the castle in Avignon is still vacant :shifty:
It became property of THE PEOPLE in 1791 -_-
Unesco World Heritage site nowadays anyways, along with the historical centre of Avignon. :frog:
There's still room at the Peñiscola Castle if the Frenchies are too difficult again.
Lol penis cola.
Quote from: grumbler on January 11, 2017, 09:10:58 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 11, 2017, 09:03:32 PM
he wasn't pope when he denied Jesus, I don't think.
I think he was. Jesus made him the pope, as I recall the story.
He was an apostle. Later on, after preaching for Jesus, he became Pope and got crucified.
Should have honked instead.
Quote from: viper37 on January 12, 2017, 03:48:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 11, 2017, 09:10:58 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 11, 2017, 09:03:32 PM
he wasn't pope when he denied Jesus, I don't think.
I think he was. Jesus made him the pope, as I recall the story.
He was an apostle. Later on, after preaching for Jesus, he became Pope and got crucified.
He was named Pope by Jesus in Matthew 16. If you believe that. But then that is our only source he was an apostle also :P
the first pope was JEWISH????
Quote from: viper37 on January 12, 2017, 03:48:58 PM
He was an apostle. Later on, after preaching for Jesus, he became Pope and got crucified.
Really? He just woke up one day, and discovered he was a pope?
Funny, I had remembered reading something about Jesus declaring him the rock on which Jesus would build his church. That seems like a declaration of popedom (popery? potpourri?) to me. But I'm not a Christian, and if your book says he found his pope hat in a box of crackerjacks or whatever, I'm cool with that.
Yeah, there is that passage. My original thought was that Jesus said to him after he (Jesus) died, when he was in resurrection mode. But I was wrong.
Of course none of the proddie faiths think that that passage made Peter pope.
Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2017, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: viper37 on January 12, 2017, 03:48:58 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 11, 2017, 09:10:58 PM
Quote from: Josephus on January 11, 2017, 09:03:32 PM
he wasn't pope when he denied Jesus, I don't think.
I think he was. Jesus made him the pope, as I recall the story.
He was an apostle. Later on, after preaching for Jesus, he became Pope and got crucified.
He was named Pope by Jesus in Matthew 16. If you believe that. But then that is our only source he was an apostle also :P
Pierre, sur cette pierre je bâtirai mon Église. Or something like that. It's been a while.
Ok, not exactly confirmation as Pope, but ok, I guess that counts.
There are many apocryphal texts attributed to him or talking of him, but aside that, yes, not many sources. It's as if he wasn't a really important historical figure and just some priest of a minor Jewish sect instead of being a Roman politician ;) :P
It's always the same problem we have we early religious figures. They are important people to Christians now, but back in their time, they were relatively minor figures, and especially early Christians, had to hide their identity. Kinda difficult to rise above the other and be notable enought to have someone write about you shortly after your death or while you're still breathing.
Quote from: grumbler on January 12, 2017, 06:45:37 PM
Really? He just woke up one day, and discovered he was a pope?
They way I interpreted it is he became Pope after Jesus died, after he realized what he had done (renouncing him 3 times).
Quote
Funny, I had remembered reading something about Jesus declaring him the rock on which Jesus would build his church. That seems like a declaration of popedom (popery? potpourri?) to me. But I'm not a Christian, and if your book says he found his pope hat in a box of crackerjacks or whatever, I'm cool with that.
I wouldn't say it's "my book", I'm not exactly a believer.
I just didn't interpret it as becoming Pope in that moment. To me, it always signified that Jesus told him he would become the leader of Christianity, but not right now. Kinda like Trump is not officially President until January 20th despite having won the election 2 months ago.
But I'm not a theologian, so what do I know? :)
QuoteThe conservative order said in a statement it intended to protect its sovereignty from official oversight and its members had the legal right not to cooperate with the Vatican investigation
is this true?
It is a Sovereign order.
Quote from: grumbler on January 14, 2017, 01:49:31 PM
Quote from: Maladict on January 14, 2017, 12:41:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2017, 04:55:22 PM
It is a Sovereign order.
A catholic sovereign order.
A sovereign under international law.
I meant that being a catholic organization the pope must have some authority, at least in theory.
edit: but yes, international law would be an additional complication.
Quote from: Maladict on January 14, 2017, 02:52:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 14, 2017, 01:49:31 PM
Quote from: Maladict on January 14, 2017, 12:41:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2017, 04:55:22 PM
It is a Sovereign order.
A catholic sovereign order.
A sovereign under international law.
I meant that being a catholic organization the pope must have some authority, at least in theory.
edit: but yes, international law would be an additional complication.
The Pope's authority in doctrinal matters isn't being challenged; just his power to supervise the administration of the order.
yeah, I don't see the problem then. if they have authority to say no to an investigation, then they're merely exercising that authority.
Quote from: Josephus on January 12, 2017, 08:00:32 PM
Of course none of the proddie faiths think that that passage made Peter pope.
He was declared The Rock and held that title until passing it on to Dwayne Johnson.
Quote from: grumbler on January 14, 2017, 03:44:46 PM
Quote from: Maladict on January 14, 2017, 02:52:42 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 14, 2017, 01:49:31 PM
Quote from: Maladict on January 14, 2017, 12:41:48 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 13, 2017, 04:55:22 PM
It is a Sovereign order.
A catholic sovereign order.
A sovereign under international law.
I meant that being a catholic organization the pope must have some authority, at least in theory.
edit: but yes, international law would be an additional complication.
The Pope's authority in doctrinal matters isn't being challenged; just his power to supervise the administration of the order.
I read somewhere that the Knights' constitution contains a clause that allows the pope to revoke, or at least compromise, their sovereignty. He's not doing that, of course, but it seems to does have a means to force his authority.