Alliteration Achieved. (http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/04/italian-exit-polls-show-prime-minister-matteo-renzi-losing-constitutional-reform-referendum-reuters.html)
Quote
Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi has announced his intention to resign after suffering what looks set to be a humiliating defeat in a referendum over his plan to reform the constitution, throwing the country and the euro zone into confusion.
According to early official projections, a sizable majority of voters have rejected the reform measures proposed by Renzi,
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffm.cnbc.com%2Fapplications%2Fcnbc.com%2Fresources%2Fimg%2Feditorial%2F2016%2F12%2F02%2F104143717-GettyImages-626280462.530x298.jpg%3Fv%3D1480707892&hash=7648803c4877bdcb658659a131c955c48831eb20)
Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi gestures as he delivers a speech during a press conference at Palazzo Chigi in Rome on November 28, 2016.
Andreas Solaro | AFP | Getty Images
Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi gestures as he delivers a speech during a press conference at Palazzo Chigi in Rome on November 28, 2016.
What was originally a rather dry referendum on constitutional change has turned into a high-stakes game with the political and economic stability of Italy—and ultimately the euro zone—at risk.
Sunday's vote was on whether the country's second chamber should be stripped of some of its powers. The country's government is hamstrung by procedure and delays to legislation. A "Yes" vote in the referendum would have meant that laws would only need the approval of the lower house to be passed.
Prime Minister Matteo Renzi had pinned his political future on the vote, saying he would resign if a "Yes" vote is rejected.
Populist parties such as the 5-Star Movement had campaigned for a "No" vote, saying the change to the constitution would lead to a concentration of power.
As well as throwing the political future of Italy into doubt, a "No" could hit the country's already-fragile economy hard.
In the minutes following the announcement of the exit poll, the euro fell below 1.06 to the dollar, to 1.058.
If early projections are correct and the final outcome of the referendum is "No" then Barclays analysts forecast last week that after Renzi's resignation, the voting system would be modified in order to avoid a hung parliament, early elections would be called in the second or third quarter of 2017.
However, Megan Greene, chief economist at Manulife Asset Management, told CNBC last week that she believed that the referendum in Italy could provoke another banking crisis in Europe.
Italy's stricken banks are holding nearly a third of the 990 billion euros (or more than $1 trillion) of unpaid loans at top euro zone lenders, according to the European Central Bank data.
The 14 large Italian banks sit on 286 billion euros (more than $300 billion) of bad loans, debt securities and off-balance sheet items. That corresponds to more than one in every 10 Italian loans. The Italian banking sector has already been performing badly this year, down some 48 percent on the start of 2016.
The high levels of toxic loans are a throwback to the euro zone's financial crisis, and what's worse is that they are stopping the banks from lending more, which could kick-start the Italian economy.
The market's fear is that a "No" vote would stymie any attempts to restructure the country's banking system as the cost of financing the rescue through issuing bonds could prove prohibitive for the Italian government. This instability and uncertainty could spread to the rest of the euro zone economy.
"In my view the biggest risk is actually for the banking sector, even more so than political risk, and there will be some political instability," Greene told CNBC on Tuesday.
I should take up smoking.
Damn, and I thought the march of the right had been checked by the Austrian pres.election result.
Guess it's a case of one step backwards and two very high steps forward. <_<
:lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkm2Vfj42FY&t=3868s
G.
Not earth shattering news, but another leader has just resigned
Quote
AFP news agency
@AFP 24m
#UPDATE New Zealand Prime Minister John Key cites family reasons for his shock resignation u.afp.com/4UHC
Quote from: mongers on December 04, 2016, 07:51:08 PM
Not earth shattering news, but another leader has just resigned
Quote
AFP news agency
@AFP 24m
#UPDATE New Zealand Prime Minister John Key cites family reasons for his shock resignation u.afp.com/4UHC
I remember a really strange story about him. He seems to have...pulled the pony tail of a female restaurant waitress repeatedly. Something I may expect from a little kid. But the Prime Minister of New Zealand doing that? It is just... :ph34r:
Quote from: mongers on December 04, 2016, 07:26:49 PM
Damn, and I thought the march of the right had been checked by the Austrian pres.election result.
Guess it's a case of one step backwards and two very high steps forward. <_<
What does this have to do with the march of the right?
Anybody have a nice pros and cons breakdown of this? My Italian civics knowledge is lacking to the point that I don't know whether this is good or bad news...
Is the 5 Star Movement really right wing? I thought it was more of a movement for people who are angry about something but don't know what it is.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 04, 2016, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 04, 2016, 07:51:08 PM
Not earth shattering news, but another leader has just resigned
Quote
AFP news agency
@AFP 24m
#UPDATE New Zealand Prime Minister John Key cites family reasons for his shock resignation u.afp.com/4UHC
I remember a really strange story about him. He seems to have...pulled the pony tail of a female restaurant waitress repeatedly. Something I may expect from a little kid. But the Prime Minister of New Zealand doing that? It is just... :ph34r:
Sad! GRAB THEM BY THE PUSSY.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on December 04, 2016, 10:58:57 PM
Is the 5 Star Movement really right wing? I thought it was more of a movement for people who are angry about something but don't know what it is.
My understanding is that their main platform consists of getting Italy out of the Euro and back on the lira. The only thing they have promised that I know of is a referendum on and beginning the process of accomplishing that one thing.
Populist is a better description than right-wing I think. Many of these movements seem to be on the left as regards economic policy. Not that it matters, at the extreme ends the left and right start to resemble each other more than the centre.
And the far right idiots are gloating about this despite it being nothing to do with the eu.
The Austrian vote meanwhile? Oh.... look at how many voted for our side ! We still won! :rolleyes:
Quote
Populist is a better description than right-wing I think. Many of these movements seem to be on the left as regards economic policy. Not that it matters, at the extreme ends the left and right start to resemble each other more than the centre.
Economics are a secondary factor for deciding right and left. Afterall on economics even the nazis could be said to be somewhat left despite being the poster boys of the far right.
No idea what these Italian populists are though. Maybe they are different to ukip.
I think they are pretty different to UKIP.
Apart from anything else the breakdown of the vote by age follows a totally different profile :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/dec/04/italian-referendum-and-austrian-presidential-election-live
I'm certainly no expert on Italian politics, but it looks to me like Renzi overplayed his hand. I'm far from being an anti-establishment extremist and I would have had lots of trouble voting "yes" for that reform. Actually, most likely I'd have voted "no".
It would have made the executive far more powerful. Perhaps a lot of voters wondered what Berlusconi might have achieved if he had had those powers :hmm: ?
A lot of the populist unrest comes from a feeling of losing control and identity - targets are big corporations, politicians, foreigners, the EU, the media ... anyone who can painted or perceived as "keeping the little guys down."
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 05, 2016, 02:59:39 AM
It would have made the executive far more powerful. Perhaps a lot of voters wondered what Berlusconi might have achieved if he had had those powers :hmm: ?
Yeah, that was instantly in my head when I put myself in the shoes of a left-of-center Italian voter. Compounded with Renzi's electoral reform, it would have given far too much power to a party that just manages to win a plurality.
I understand that Italy has an acute governance problem, but that seemed the wrong answer. I like my checks and balances thankyouverymuch.
Yeah first of all it seems Politics 101 to not make such a referendum about you the reigning PM.
Secondly, based on what I read on it, there were legitimate concerns. A more governable Italy would also have meant an easier time for the populists to ruin everything once in power.
Personally I never liked Renzi, he rubbed me the wrong way, and getting the top spot by backstabbing a colleague is a huge no no for me (even if its politics as usual in Italy). He had the bad habit of putting his government's survival as the main stake of any big law or reform he wanted to pass, banking on the Italian people's desire of having a stable government once and for all, so it was about time that that ploy exploded in his face. The likeliest outcome now is a technical government, IIRC. There won't be new elections in the short term as the new electoral now is being reviewed by constitutional courts and no verdict is expected until next year.
Re: M5S, they're very difficult to pin down in the left-right spectrum. Because they vote almost every position internally you never know what option they're going to take. They hold some pretty social liberal ideas, support lots of environmentally friendly measures and other lefty positions, but then they sit with UKIP in the European Parliament.
Apparently the Lega Nord leader hailed Trump, Putin and Marine Le Pen in a tweet after the results were known. :bleeding:
Are we entering the age of Twitter diplomacy?
Quote from: The Larch on December 05, 2016, 06:35:12 AM
Apparently the Lega Nord leader hailed Trump, Putin and Marine Le Pen in a tweet after the results were known. :bleeding:
Are we entering the age of Twitter diplomacy?
There really is nothing wrong with Twitter diplomacy. It all depends on how they use it :ph34r:
I'm very big on local representation so as much as Italy needs reform might well have voted no were I Italian.
That being said were I Italian I may have a different view of local representation to being from super centralised England so. .....
The problem with changing the constitution to give your leaders additional powers, even if the guys in power are your friends, is that at some point in the future somebody else...less friendly to you will have those powers too.
I keep seeing "Rienzi" instead of Renzi, whom I guess was sort of an opposite personality. Great overture, though :)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy8P9aUWQAEG75Z.jpg)
:lol:
Quote from: mongers on December 05, 2016, 04:52:52 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy8P9aUWQAEG75Z.jpg)
:lol:
Four down, one to go. :P
Never wave.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on December 05, 2016, 04:57:57 PM
...
Four down, one to go. :P
Or ..
Can't, Will, Won't, Shot self in foot, hoisted on own petard.
What do you think I'm doing right now?
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2016, 07:16:57 AM
What do you think I'm doing right now?
This post must be a first for Languish.
Quote from: mongers on December 06, 2016, 08:27:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2016, 07:16:57 AM
What do you think I'm doing right now?
This post must be a first for Languish.
The first time someone asked a question?
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2016, 08:40:24 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 06, 2016, 08:27:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2016, 07:16:57 AM
What do you think I'm doing right now?
This post must be a first for Languish.
The first time someone asked a question?
The first time someone posted whilst do that act. :P :P
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2016, 09:03:27 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 06, 2016, 08:57:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2016, 08:40:24 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 06, 2016, 08:27:57 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 06, 2016, 07:16:57 AM
What do you think I'm doing right now?
This post must be a first for Languish.
The first time someone asked a question?
The first time someone posted whilst do that act. :P :P
I'm at work. :rolleyes:
Not sure that would be a first.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on December 05, 2016, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 05, 2016, 04:52:52 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy8P9aUWQAEG75Z.jpg)
:lol:
Four down, one to go. :P
Merkel got 90% at her party conference today and is thus the conservative candidate again. The Conservatives are polling a bit better again too...
Angela die Ewige... :rolleyes:
Merkel and Germany are shaping up to be what Churchill and UK were 80 years ago.
That's silly. Those articles declaring Merkel that last defender of liberalism are not understanding her personality, her domestic political power or the willingness of Germany to actually use its anyway rather limited power.
And there is plenty of defenders of liberalism left inside the other western countries. We are not all totalitarian dictatorships yet.
Well except for the corrupt Trudeau regime in Canada. According to viper anyway :P
Quote from: Zanza on December 06, 2016, 03:01:08 PM
That's silly. Those articles declaring Merkel that last defender of liberalism are not understanding her personality, her domestic political power or the willingness of Germany to actually use its anyway rather limited power.
Churchill wasn't exactly progressive either, even by the standards of the time.
What does progressiveness have to do with it? Fighting for the classical liberal values that underpin the Western world is not particularly progressive and you can do that as a moderately conservative politician as well. What distinguishes Merkel and Churchill is that Merkel just fumbles along and would never hold a blood, toil, tears and sweat speech.
Quote from: DGuller on December 06, 2016, 01:26:48 PM
Merkel and Germany are shaping up to be what Churchill and UK were 80 years ago.
Churchill did not take power until Germany invaded France. Maybe she is what Neville Chamberlain was 80 years ago :P