Prompted by the Benedict Arnold thread. Answer either for yourself or for the country as a whole.
For the US: Lee Harvey Oswald? Nixon? Bull Connor? Tokyo Rose? The Koch brothers? The creator of Family Circus?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 20, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
Prompted by the Benedict Arnold thread. Answer either for yourself or for the country as a whole.
For the US: Lee Harvey Oswald? Nixon? Bull Connor? Tokyo Rose? The Koch brothers? The creator of Family Circus?
(https://localtvwdaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/shkreli.jpg?w=1086&quality=85&strip=all&h=612)
That lady who didn't watch her kids at the zoo. RIP Harambe.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 20, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
Prompted by the Benedict Arnold thread. Answer either for yourself or for the country as a whole.
For the US: Lee Harvey Oswald? Nixon? Bull Connor? Tokyo Rose? The Koch brothers? The creator of Family Circus?
Surely it has to be a figure from the Civil War, though who that figure is will differ depending on how you view that conflict.
WInston Churchill or Tony Blair. :bowler:
In Canada, definitely Karla Homolka.
But historically, Canada has very few reviled, loathsome characters (except Adrien Arcand, which I suspect no one now remembers).
Quote from: jimmy olsen on September 20, 2016, 08:33:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 20, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
Prompted by the Benedict Arnold thread. Answer either for yourself or for the country as a whole.
For the US: Lee Harvey Oswald? Nixon? Bull Connor? Tokyo Rose? The Koch brothers? The creator of Family Circus?
Surely it has to be a figure from the Civil War, though who that figure is will differ depending on how you view that conflict.
Well who would it be?
Who's your evil Christmas elf, Before?
Maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest. He doesn't have many fans these days.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on September 20, 2016, 08:44:21 PM
Maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest. He doesn't have many fans these days.
Southern whites big fans.
I think it would probably be a generational thing. Plenty of Boomers still see LBJ/Nixon in their nightmares, depending on their side of the aisle. Or Dick Cheney/Bill Clinton. Or, in grumbler's case, nobody else remembers how much of a fucking asshole Aaron Burr was.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 08:49:57 PM
I think it would probably be a generational thing. Plenty of Boomers still see LBJ/Nixon in their nightmares, depending on their side of the aisle. Or Dick Cheney/Bill Clinton. Or, in grumbler's case, nobody else remembers how much of a fucking asshole Aaron Burr was.
How political of you.
I've left it to Tyr to name Thatcher. :P
Adolf Hitler
Quote from: 11B4V on September 20, 2016, 08:52:52 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 08:49:57 PM
I think it would probably be a generational thing. Plenty of Boomers still see LBJ/Nixon in their nightmares, depending on their side of the aisle. Or Dick Cheney/Bill Clinton. Or, in grumbler's case, nobody else remembers how much of a fucking asshole Aaron Burr was.
How political of you.
Fine, then. "Most Reviled Person In Your Country's History"? Timothy McVeigh is definitely up there on the leaderboard.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 08:59:44 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 20, 2016, 08:52:52 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 08:49:57 PM
I think it would probably be a generational thing. Plenty of Boomers still see LBJ/Nixon in their nightmares, depending on their side of the aisle. Or Dick Cheney/Bill Clinton. Or, in grumbler's case, nobody else remembers how much of a fucking asshole Aaron Burr was.
How political of you.
Fine, then. "Most Reviled Person In Your Country's History"? Timothy McVeigh is definitely up there on the leaderboard.
:lol: Fuck that POS was at the top of my list below the shithead I post. Freaky.
John C Calhoun. Roger B Taney.
So sue me for focusing on the most reviled institution in my country's history :P
Quote from: mongers on September 20, 2016, 08:40:07 PM
WInston Churchill or Tony Blair. :bowler:
Huh. With all the devoted Imperialists who subjugated millions that was the best you could come up with?
Al Haig.
Quote from: Drakken on September 20, 2016, 08:41:09 PM
In Canada, definitely Karla Homolka.
But historically, Canada has very few reviled, loathsome characters (except Adrien Arcand, which I suspect no one now remembers).
Really? More so than Bernardo himself? I don't buy it.
Although I kind of don't mind him (though now he's going on about Trump) how about Conrad Black? Gave up his citizenship so he could be a British Lord, but came crawling back after being convicted of fraud in the US?
Wait you cannot be both Canadian and a lord? Huh. Why not?
Charles Manson, maybe?
Quote from: Valmy on September 20, 2016, 09:45:02 PM
Wait you cannot be both Canadian and a lord? Huh. Why not?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_titles_debate
A long and fairly stupid debate. In particular in Black's case - he was both a Canadian and UK citizen, and seemingly for purely political purposes Chretien blocked his appointment.
How do Canadians consider rebellion leaders like Louis Riel or the Quebec rebels? Romanticized?
But Drakken is right; definitely the Ken and Barbie Murders. Or Tie Domi.
Quote from: Valmy on September 20, 2016, 09:21:17 PM
John C Calhoun. Roger B Taney.
So sue me for focusing on the most reviled institution in my country's history :P
The United States Senate or the Office of the Attorney General?
Quote from: Valmy on September 20, 2016, 09:21:17 PM
John C Calhoun.
But don't you think that future generations of his family make up for any shortcomings he may have had? :ph34r:
OJ Simpson deserves a vote. Probably also Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.
While Bill Keane is a definite contender, I'll go with Henry Ford.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 10:00:09 PM
How do Canadians consider rebellion leaders like Louis Riel or the Quebec rebels? Romanticized?
But Drakken is right; definitely the Ken and Barbie Murders. Or Tie Domi.
Not sure which "Quebec rebels" you're thinking of.
Riel is very complicated. On the one hand he is considered a "father of confederation". He helped Manitoba join Confederation. He took up arms and formed a provisional government, but it was during an odd moment in time between when the HBC gave up sovereignty, and before Canada had really taken it up, so it was forgiven.
Then he took up arms again, 15 years later, which got him hanged as a traitor. Some people disagree with that (I don't), but enough people definitely admire him so he doesn't qualify.
And Tie Domi doesn't have to buy a drink ever again in his life as far as I can tell. :wub:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tradingcarddb.com%2FImages%2FCards%2FHockey%2F4962%2F4962-513Bk.jpg&hash=ce600bd58961ecc1d5280ed321e7d49d344b52f6)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 20, 2016, 10:10:57 PM
Bill Keane
:lol:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/59/12/cb/5912cb608437dc1d2f6a97f1501e560a.jpg)
Quote from: Barrister on September 20, 2016, 10:16:14 PM
Not sure which "Quebec rebels" you're thinking of.
The Rebellions of the 1837. Had to google it.
QuoteThen he took up arms again, 15 years later, which got him hanged as a traitor. Some people disagree with that (I don't)
LOL, imagine that.
QuoteAnd Tie Domi doesn't have to buy a drink ever again in his life as far as I can tell. :wub:
Barf. How can a Dudley Do-Right like yourself stand with Pure Evil
tm, and still manage to sleep through the night?
How the fuck is Tie Domi considered to be Pure Evil? The job of a hockey enforcer is a long and noble calling amongst my people. -_-
And the 1830s rebels are generally considered to be on the right side of history. Both in Upper and Lower Canada.
Stop being such an easy grift Beeb. :bleeding:
Quote from: Barrister on September 20, 2016, 09:42:26 PM
Really? More so than Bernardo himself? I don't buy it.
She gave her own sister to be 'taken' by Bernardo, and she died choking on her own vomit while she was passed out. She participated to his rapes and murders on her own free will, and played the battered wife following him under duress when in fact the stashed videos showed she was in fact a willing accomplice.
She did her sentence until the last second, because she refused to submit to any rehabilitation workshop or take responsability for her past actions. In fact, it was discovered she kept a lesbian relationship with a fellow female inmate in Tanguay penitenciary, while keeping correspondence with another man who is jailed for life for murdering his own girlfriend. Plus, she kept refering herself as Karla Teale in her private diary, knowing that Bernardo used Paul Teale as pseudonym.
This is why I believe, in balance, she is even more reviled than Bernardo now. While Bernardo will rot in jail until he dies, Homolka is not only a free woman, but is now a mother with young children and she has never expressed any genuine remorse for her crimes. She played her cards and has not paid the dues, while Bernardo does.
She is living in Quebec (South Shore of Montreal IIRC) under a new name. Yet quite a few parents even refuse to let their children play with hers and welcome them in their homes after learning who their mother was.
Quote from: Barrister on September 20, 2016, 10:47:37 PM
And the 1830s rebels are generally considered to be on the right side of history. Both in Upper and Lower Canada.
There is only one rebellion that counts in Quebec: the Patriotes. The vast majority even ignore there was one in Upper Canada as well, and the name William Lyon Mackenzie does not ring any bell.
Which is ironic but not surprising, since the latter was the successful rebellion while the former abysmally failed. People love noble failures.
Depends who you ask.
For longevity it would have to be King John. He'll still be up there when people like Blair and Thatcher are long forgotten.
Leopold II- Congo Free State and marrying mirganatically marrying his prostitute just before his.
Leopold III - Did stay in Belgium during WWII after capitulation, ignoring his government calls to GTFO. Made in thereafter a visit to Mr. Hitler. Married a commoner. After the war he had to stay in Switzerland and his brother became regent. In 1950 they held a referendum about his return, which proponents closely won. This caused unrest since Wallonia was anti and Flanders pro. This was closest Belgium came to a civil war. He abdicated for his son Balduin.
I don't mention politicians other men's reviled foe is another men's hero.
Tough question. If it wasn't for his impressive buildings scattered around Copenhagen then perhaps C4.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 21, 2016, 12:34:17 AM
For longevity it would have to be King John. He'll still be up there when people like Blair and Thatcher are long forgotten.
Not Richard III?
Miguel de Vasconcelos, whose name is synonymous of collaborator in Portugal, with a fitting end.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Vasconcelos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Vasconcelos)
QuoteHe was probably the most hated collaborator with the Spanish, considered a traitor during the last years of the Philippine Dynasty, especially after the revolts of 1637. On the morning of 1 December 1640, a group of Portuguese noblemen who wanted to restore full independence started a revolution, immediately supported by the people of Lisbon. After entering the palace, the conspirators sought Miguel Vasconcelos, but saw no sign of him. They would eventually find Miguel de Vasconcelos hidden in a closet with a gun. His movements within the small closet and the rustling of papers inside gave away his position. He was shot to death and defenestrated, leaving his corpse to the angry public.
The referee in Spain-Korea's QF game in WC 2002.
Really, that's about the only figure you could get a semblance of national consensus around. In this country half the nation's villain is the other half's national hero.
Quote from: celedhring on September 21, 2016, 02:33:42 AM
The referee in Spain-Korea's QF game in WC 2002.
Really, that's about the only figure you could get a semblance of national consensus around. In this country half the nation's villain is the other half's national hero.
I think that's the only game I remember from that WC. :D :P
Quote from: celedhring on September 21, 2016, 02:33:42 AM
The referee in Spain-Korea's QF game in WC 2002.
Him or Tassotti.
QuoteReally, that's about the only figure you could get a semblance of national consensus around. In this country half the nation's villain is the other half's national hero.
Maybe Fernando VII. :P
Fernando VII would be my pick, but I don't get the feeling he's a big figure in the minds of most of our compatriots.
A good candidate is Gustav IV Adolf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_IV_Adolf_of_Sweden
200+ years after the fact he is still the scapegoat for why Finland was lost to the Russkies.
Took the question to the Spanish Paradox Forum and Fernando VII seems to be winning in a landslide. That's a more educated audience than your average Spaniard, though.
Amherst has made a comeback as most reviled, as the smallpox blankets episode is slowly trickling into historical imagination.
I am sure someone like Parizeau or Lévesque would count in English Canada.
Quote from: mongers on September 20, 2016, 08:53:00 PM
I've left it to Tyr to name Thatcher. :P
Even thinking neutrally it is clearly so.
Memory doesn't go back more than a few decades and she still looms heavy.
Tom Brady
Quote from: grumbler on September 21, 2016, 05:11:12 AM
Tom Brady
never before has a man and his balls wounded his nation to such a degree.
Tough one.
It could be Mussert, leader of the collaborators during the war, but he's more ridiculed than reviled nowadays.
If foreigners count then I guess either Seyss-Inquart, the Duke of Alva or maybe Balthasar Gerard.
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 21, 2016, 04:40:55 AM
Amherst has made a comeback as most reviled, as the smallpox blankets episode is slowly trickling into historical imagination.
I am sure someone like Parizeau or Lévesque would count in English Canada.
I am sure they would not. :lol:
After Homolka, I'd go with ex-Colonel Russell Williams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Williams_(colonel)
Joe Paterno
Quote from: Berkut on September 21, 2016, 07:53:43 AM
Joe Paterno
More than 100,000 people just attended a ceremony honoring him.
Quote from: Zanza on September 21, 2016, 01:56:58 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 21, 2016, 12:34:17 AM
For longevity it would have to be King John. He'll still be up there when people like Blair and Thatcher are long forgotten.
Not Richard III?
Robin Hood legends trump Shakespeare's play.
Quote from: Agelastus on September 21, 2016, 08:35:59 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 21, 2016, 01:56:58 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on September 21, 2016, 12:34:17 AM
For longevity it would have to be King John. He'll still be up there when people like Blair and Thatcher are long forgotten.
Not Richard III?
Robin Hood legends trump Shakespeare's play.
Also "Richardians". There is no such thing as "John-ians". :D Even revisionists more or less agree he was a jerk.
Quote from: celedhring on September 21, 2016, 04:32:49 AM
Took the question to the Spanish Paradox Forum and Fernando VII seems to be winning in a landslide. That's a more educated audience than your average Spaniard, though.
Also if Spanish Paradox is anything like the rest of Paradox, a skewed political sample.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 20, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
Prompted by the Benedict Arnold thread. Answer either for yourself or for the country as a whole.
For the US: Lee Harvey Oswald? Nixon? Bull Connor? Tokyo Rose? The Koch brothers? The creator of Family Circus?
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Oddly enough, I don't even think Benedict Arnold is all that reviled in the US.
I mean, nobody really cares. He was some guy who betrayed the country, and...ok.
There isn't really any emotion attached to him, I don't think. It is just something that everyone learns in 3rd grade history.
Quote from: Berkut on September 21, 2016, 08:48:35 AM
Oddly enough, I don't even think Benedict Arnold is all that reviled in the US.
I mean, nobody really cares. He was some guy who betrayed the country, and...ok.
There isn't really any emotion attached to him, I don't think. It is just something that everyone learns in 3rd grade history.
:yes:
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 10:00:09 PM
How do Canadians consider rebellion leaders like Louis Riel or the Quebec rebels? Romanticized?
But Drakken is right; definitely the Ken and Barbie Murders. Or Tie Domi.
Louis Riel is a simple criminal to them, while any Quebec seperatist is considered a demon.
Quote from: ulmont on September 21, 2016, 08:45:42 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 21, 2016, 04:32:49 AM
Took the question to the Spanish Paradox Forum and Fernando VII seems to be winning in a landslide. That's a more educated audience than your average Spaniard, though.
Also if Spanish Paradox is anything like the rest of Paradox, a skewed political sample.
It's - fortunately - pretty different to Paradox OT, but it is indeed hilariously skewed compared to mainstream Spain.
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
He's been mentionned a few times in conversation with anglos, on Paradox, and in real-life. Parizeau and Bouchard were both compared to Hitler by the English Canadian press.
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
It isn't your age. It is pure fantasy on their part (though apparently widely believed by certain people in Quebec).
Similarly, Riel is considered a complex figure, but basically a tragic hero put down by a self-interested establishment: the subject of movies and plays, written by English Canadians for an English Canadian audience. I even saw one, and it was pretty good.
http://www.videocab.com/sp_confedriel.html
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
He's been mentionned a few times in conversation with anglos, on Paradox, and in real-life. Parizeau and Bouchard were both compared to Hitler by the English Canadian press.
Hitler? :blink: either this is your normal hyperbol or we watch much different news channels.
@ Malthus: Viper is easily triggered but I don't know much about Oex's views so I want sure.
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 09:10:13 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
He's been mentionned a few times in conversation with anglos, on Paradox, and in real-life. Parizeau and Bouchard were both compared to Hitler by the English Canadian press.
Hitler? :blink: either this is your normal hyperbol or we watch much different news channels.
He's doing his usual trick of attributing the dumbest, most offensive things ever said by anyone in English Canada over the last 200 years, in the press or (now) on Internet chat sites, to all English Canadians everywhere. :lol:
God help us all if we applied that standard to Quebec, though. We'd all end up judging Quebec by Grallon's postings on Muslims. ;)
Quote from: grumbler on September 21, 2016, 07:59:59 AM
Quote from: Berkut on September 21, 2016, 07:53:43 AM
Joe Paterno
More than 100,000 people just attended a ceremony honoring him.
Joe Paterno plus the 100,000 people that honor him.
As Cato would say, "Happy Valley delenda est"
Quote from: Delirium on September 21, 2016, 03:41:17 AM
A good candidate is Gustav IV Adolf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_IV_Adolf_of_Sweden
200+ years after the fact he is still the scapegoat for why Finland was lost to the Russkies.
Lousy king but its not like anyone else would have been able to win that war.
So I didn't mention any separatist, or any politician really, as I think in order to be "most reviled" the person has to be pretty well universally despised. Pierre Trudeau was universally despised in western Canada and Quebec, but many admired him in Ontario, so he really doesn't count.
The same goes for separatist leaders in Quebec.
Quote from: Malthus on September 21, 2016, 09:05:30 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
It isn't your age. It is pure fantasy on their part (though apparently widely believed by certain people in Quebec).
Similarly, Riel is considered a complex figure, but basically a tragic hero put down by a self-interested establishment: the subject of movies and plays, written by English Canadians for an English Canadian audience. I even saw one, and it was pretty good.
http://www.videocab.com/sp_confedriel.html
Quote
The first amateur English language histories hailed the triumph of civilization, represented by English-speaking Protestants, over savagery represented by the half-breed Métis who were Catholic and spoke French. Riel was portrayed as an insane traitor and an obstacle to the expansion of Canada to the West.[87][88] By the mid-20th century academic historians had dropped the theme of savagery versus civilization, deemphasized the Métis, and focused on Riel, presenting his execution as a major cause of the bitter division in Canada along ethnocultural and geographical lines of religion and language. W. L. Morton says the execution:
gave rise to a bitter and prolonged reaction which convulsed the course of national politics for the next decade. In Ontario it had been demanded and applauded by the Orange element as the punishment of treason and a vindication of loyalty. In Quebec Riel was defended, despite his apostasy and megalomania, as the symbol, indeed as a hero of his race.
QuoteHowever, a leading specialist Thomas Flanagan reversed his views after editing Riel's writings:
As I sifted the evidence this became less and less convincing to me until I concluded that the opposite was closer to the truth: that the Métis grievances were at least partly of their own making; that the government was on the verge of resolving them when the Rebellion broke out; That Riel's resort to arms could not be explained by the failure of constitutional agitation and that he received a surprisingly fair trial.[96]
So far, his conviction hasn't been overturned, despitre... what, 3, 4 bills presented to this effect? :)
As for Lévesque, equating him to the evilness of a man like Lord Durham demonstrate all I need to know. But to push the point a little further:
Quotehrough it all, Lévesque acknowledged that whatever injustices Québecers suffered inside Confederation, Canada was still a free and decent country. "Canada's federal system," he once said, "is not excessively oppressive or anything like a gulag." He was never the most ardent nationalist or separatist of his time, yet he fanned the flames of nationalist sentiment in pursuit of his aims. His insistence on wanting to break up the nation, in spite of the Canadian virtues he admired, are what made him such a perplexing — and often hated — figure in the minds of English-speaking Canadians, both inside Québec, and elsewhere.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/rene-levesque/
But if it pleases you, I searched for "most hated man in Canada" and the most often return subject concerned "Toronto, the most hated city" or "The Maples Leafs, the most hated team". So maybe all that Lévesque hatred has been drowned by the hatred of anything Toronto ;)
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 09:10:13 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
He's been mentionned a few times in conversation with anglos, on Paradox, and in real-life. Parizeau and Bouchard were both compared to Hitler by the English Canadian press.
Hitler? :blink: either this is your normal hyperbol or we watch much different news channels.
@ Malthus: Viper is easily triggered but I don't know much about Oex's views so I want sure.
http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa-computes.dec96.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/friends-testify-politicians-nothing-like-hitler-1.184341)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/friends-testify-politicians-nothing-like-hitler-1.184341 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/friends-testify-politicians-nothing-like-hitler-1.184341)
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 10:10:00 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 09:10:13 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
He's been mentionned a few times in conversation with anglos, on Paradox, and in real-life. Parizeau and Bouchard were both compared to Hitler by the English Canadian press.
Hitler? :blink: either this is your normal hyperbol or we watch much different news channels.
@ Malthus: Viper is easily triggered but I don't know much about Oex's views so I want sure.
http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa-computes.dec96.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/friends-testify-politicians-nothing-like-hitler-1.184341)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/friends-testify-politicians-nothing-like-hitler-1.184341 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/friends-testify-politicians-nothing-like-hitler-1.184341)
You have a funny idea about what constitutes "English Canadian press".
Quote
A judge has ruled that stockbroker Richard Lafferty defamed Premier Lucien Bouchard and former premier Jacques Parizeau by comparing them to Adolf Hitler.
Justice Luc Lefebvre ordered Lafferty to pay the two politicians $40,000 plus costs.
The Quebec Superior Court suit concerned a 1993 issue of Lafferty Canadian Report, a newsletter sent to 275 subscribers.
Lefebvre said people who go into political life realize they will be subject to abuse, "but there is a limit to be respected,'' the judge said.
Defence counsel Mark Bantey says Lafferty is ready to appeal the judgement all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/bouchard-wins-defamation-case-1.196947
In fact I think Malthus had it about right:
Quote from: MalthusHe's doing his usual trick of attributing the dumbest, most offensive things ever said by anyone in English Canada over the last 200 years, in the press or (now) on Internet chat sites, to all English Canadians everywhere.
it was widely reported by the English press at the time, and I can't remember the Gazette ever disagreed or condemned the letter, for example.
As for the generality of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment
I guess the Toronto Sun is sent to only 275 subcribers? :)
to hear people talk about Quebec culture would give Hermann Göring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) the desire to brandish his revolver." — Peter Stockland (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Stockland&action=edit&redlink=1), Toronto Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Sun), November 30, 1989[page needed]
Quebec leaves a bad taste in the mouth, in my opinion, take these bastards and throw them into the ocean."
"I will NEVER let up in my battle against the LEFT. I will do everything that i can to get the RACIST Province of Quebec out of Canada, and to end the French Ethnocentric AFFIRMATIVE action policy within Canada that denies the 97% English Canadian MAJORITY (excluding Quebec) fair access to work in their own civil services, and hold senior ranks in Canada's military and the RCMP (National Police Force)."
there's more samples.
I wrote Hitler earlier, but we have a whole circus of reviled persons from the 20th century alone. Mengele, Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, von Trotha, Mielke, Honecker, ... The list is endless.
There's a distinction that can and should be made between criticizing sovereignists and some of their policies (language laws, the Charter of Quebec Values proposed a few years ago), and criticizing Quebecers. All of the examples on your wiki page are uncited, so it's impossible to prove the statement was made (this is wiki, after all), never mind tell in what context they were made.
Quote from: Zanza on September 21, 2016, 10:45:34 AM
I wrote Hitler earlier, but we have a whole circus of reviled persons from the 20th century alone. Mengele, Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, Lettow-Vorbeck, Mielke, Honecker, ... The list is endless.
Here in Canada, we have an
extensive history of deeply reviled hockey players ... :hmm:
Why, the Maple Leafs alone would provide a hefty list! :D
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 10:24:00 AM
it was widely reported by the English press at the time, and I can't remember the Gazette ever disagreed or condemned the letter, for example.
As for the generality of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment
I guess the Toronto Sun is sent to only 275 subcribers? :)
to hear people talk about Quebec culture would give Hermann Göring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) the desire to brandish his revolver." — Peter Stockland (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Stockland&action=edit&redlink=1), Toronto Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Sun), November 30, 1989[page needed]
Quebec leaves a bad taste in the mouth, in my opinion, take these bastards and throw them into the ocean."
"I will NEVER let up in my battle against the LEFT. I will do everything that i can to get the RACIST Province of Quebec out of Canada, and to end the French Ethnocentric AFFIRMATIVE action policy within Canada that denies the 97% English Canadian MAJORITY (excluding Quebec) fair access to work in their own civil services, and hold senior ranks in Canada's military and the RCMP (National Police Force)."
there's more samples.
Viper, you seem unable to distinguish between two things:
(1) Some people in English Canada have made statements denigrating Quebec over the last century or so; and
(2) Hatred of Quebec is widespread, uncontroversial, and commonly expressed today in English Canada.
When challenged for basically stating (2), you simply find some examples of (1). In this case a Wikipedia page no less, which suffers from the further problem of being unable to distinguish "criticism of particular policies and laws passed by the Quebec government" with "statements denigrating Quebec". :lol:
Quote from: Zanza on September 21, 2016, 10:45:34 AM
I wrote Hitler earlier, but we have a whole circus of reviled persons from the 20th century alone. Mengele, Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, von Trotha, Mielke, Honecker, ... The list is endless.
Also michael schumacher.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 21, 2016, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: Delirium on September 21, 2016, 03:41:17 AM
A good candidate is Gustav IV Adolf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_IV_Adolf_of_Sweden
200+ years after the fact he is still the scapegoat for why Finland was lost to the Russkies.
Lousy king but its not like anyone else would have been able to win that war.
Cronstedt who quickly surrendered the fortress Sveaborg (in the same war) was pretty reviled, but of course these days few Swedes have heard of him.
Anckarström who murdered Gustav III had a poor rep (IIRC the family changed their name afterwards), but again these days no one cares.
A hundred years ago school kids would learn about the evil advisor Jöran Persson who worked for Erik XIV, but today he's forgotten.
Charles XII is pretty reviled by a significant segment of the population, but I'd say controversial is a better word than reviled in his case. The same can be said about Olof Palme.
Of course you have a group of infamous criminals like mass-murderer Mattias Flink and stuff, but they will come and go.
A vocal minority in the southern provinces dislikes Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XI for stuff done in wars against the Danes (burning, pillaging, killing), but those monarchs are overall pretty popular.
All in all not that many great villains in Swedish history, Gustav IV Adolf is probably the best candidate. He gives off a general loser vibe, which can never be forgiven.
Olof Palme was wildly popular in Spain because of his opposition to Franco, his assassination was a shock. I remember mom watching the news and rushing to call my dad at work "They killed Olof Palme!".
I'm aware he was a pretty polarizing figure in Sweden and abroad.
Quote from: celedhring on September 21, 2016, 11:18:08 AM
Olof Palme was wildly popular in Spain because of his opposition to Franco, his assassination was a shock. I remember mom watching the news and rushing to call my dad at work "They killed Olof Palme!".
I'm aware he was a pretty polarizing figure in Sweden and abroad.
His feelings towards dictators were... ambivalent.
Quote from: The Brain on September 21, 2016, 11:20:11 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 21, 2016, 11:18:08 AM
Olof Palme was wildly popular in Spain because of his opposition to Franco, his assassination was a shock. I remember mom watching the news and rushing to call my dad at work "They killed Olof Palme!".
I'm aware he was a pretty polarizing figure in Sweden and abroad.
His feelings towards dictators were... ambivalent.
Yeah, I know. Supported the Cuban regime and some guerrillas.
In Spain, he was a refreshing opposing voice in a time where most western governments just played nice with the regime due to realpolitik.
Quote from: Malthus on September 21, 2016, 10:49:28 AM
Quote from: Zanza on September 21, 2016, 10:45:34 AM
I wrote Hitler earlier, but we have a whole circus of reviled persons from the 20th century alone. Mengele, Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, Lettow-Vorbeck, Mielke, Honecker, ... The list is endless.
Here in Canada, we have an extensive history of deeply reviled hockey players ... :hmm:
Why, the Maple Leafs alone would provide a hefty list! :D
That ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport. ;)
Tie Domi is a fucking war criminal.
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 20, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
Prompted by the Benedict Arnold thread. Answer either for yourself or for the country as a whole.
For the US: Lee Harvey Oswald? Nixon? Bull Connor? Tokyo Rose? The Koch brothers? The creator of Family Circus?
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
No Justin Trudeau yet? I'm sure he can equal his father, given time, at the very least. :)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 21, 2016, 11:49:49 AM
Tie Domi is a fucking war criminal.
Did you know his son is playing for the Arizona Coyotes, and is actually a skilled player (and not just an enforcer)? :cool:
And Uday Hussein loved weddings. Big fucking deal.
Currently, I would say Jimmy Saville. Jack the Ripper has a degree of longevity though.
Quote from: Maladict on September 21, 2016, 06:01:07 AM
Tough one.
It could be Mussert, leader of the collaborators during the war, but he's more ridiculed than reviled nowadays.
If foreigners count then I guess either Seyss-Inquart, the Duke of Alva or maybe Balthasar Gerard.
I forgot the duke of Alva. Thanks to remind me.
And a completely Belgian one. Marc Dutroux.
And a shared place with Hungary Andras Pandy.
Abdesalaam the Paris attack guy.
Quote from: The Brain on September 21, 2016, 11:08:05 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 21, 2016, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: Delirium on September 21, 2016, 03:41:17 AM
A good candidate is Gustav IV Adolf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_IV_Adolf_of_Sweden
200+ years after the fact he is still the scapegoat for why Finland was lost to the Russkies.
Lousy king but its not like anyone else would have been able to win that war.
Cronstedt who quickly surrendered the fortress Sveaborg (in the same war) was pretty reviled, but of course these days few Swedes have heard of him.
Anckarström who murdered Gustav III had a poor rep (IIRC the family changed their name afterwards), but again these days no one cares.
A hundred years ago school kids would learn about the evil advisor Jöran Persson who worked for Erik XIV, but today he's forgotten.
Charles XII is pretty reviled by a significant segment of the population, but I'd say controversial is a better word than reviled in his case. The same can be said about Olof Palme.
Of course you have a group of infamous criminals like mass-murderer Mattias Flink and stuff, but they will come and go.
A vocal minority in the southern provinces dislikes Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XI for stuff done in wars against the Danes (burning, pillaging, killing), but those monarchs are overall pretty popular.
All in all not that many great villains in Swedish history, Gustav IV Adolf is probably the best candidate. He gives off a general loser vibe, which can never be forgiven.
Agreed. Tough definition though: "most reviled person in your country's history". My take is that Gustav IV Adolf is most reviled, *over the course of the 200 years of history since he was removed*, but of course he would not be very well known by Swedes today (which can be said about almost any king I think). For me Cronstedt is probably a better choice, GIVA has an aura of Greek tragedy about him, fighting against the odds (Napoleon) when everyone else had given up on the cause.
Palme divides the country but would probably come up top on the list (disregarding murderers) if you ask a random sample of the population.
Quote from: Maladict on September 21, 2016, 06:01:07 AM
If foreigners count then I guess either Seyss-Inquart, the Duke of Alva or maybe Balthasar Gerard.
They don't. Has to be a local.
Quote from: Malthus on September 21, 2016, 11:01:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 10:24:00 AM
it was widely reported by the English press at the time, and I can't remember the Gazette ever disagreed or condemned the letter, for example.
As for the generality of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment)
I guess the Toronto Sun is sent to only 275 subcribers? :)
to hear people talk about Quebec culture would give Hermann Göring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) the desire to brandish his revolver." — Peter Stockland (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Stockland&action=edit&redlink=1), Toronto Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Sun), November 30, 1989[page needed]
Quebec leaves a bad taste in the mouth, in my opinion, take these bastards and throw them into the ocean."
"I will NEVER let up in my battle against the LEFT. I will do everything that i can to get the RACIST Province of Quebec out of Canada, and to end the French Ethnocentric AFFIRMATIVE action policy within Canada that denies the 97% English Canadian MAJORITY (excluding Quebec) fair access to work in their own civil services, and hold senior ranks in Canada's military and the RCMP (National Police Force)."
there's more samples.
Viper, you seem unable to distinguish between two things:
(1) Some people in English Canada have made statements denigrating Quebec over the last century or so; and
(2) Hatred of Quebec is widespread, uncontroversial, and commonly expressed today in English Canada.
When challenged for basically stating (2), you simply find some examples of (1). In this case a Wikipedia page no less, which suffers from the further problem of being unable to distinguish "criticism of particular policies and laws passed by the Quebec government" with "statements denigrating Quebec". :lol:
If lots of people in Quebec are like viper, widespread of dislike of Quebec is not only understandable but expected.
For the US, one of the worst people is also one of the least known, James Wilkinson. More well known, people are J. Edgar Hoover and Henry Kissinger, though I don't dislike them. In some circles they are monsters.
Quote from: Barrister on September 21, 2016, 10:47:47 AM
All of the examples on your wiki page are uncited, so it's impossible to prove the statement was made (this is wiki, after all), never mind tell in what context they were made.
all the examples are cited. You have the name of the commentator and the media they were published in.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 21, 2016, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 21, 2016, 11:01:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 10:24:00 AM
it was widely reported by the English press at the time, and I can't remember the Gazette ever disagreed or condemned the letter, for example.
As for the generality of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment)
I guess the Toronto Sun is sent to only 275 subcribers? :)
to hear people talk about Quebec culture would give Hermann Göring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) the desire to brandish his revolver." — Peter Stockland (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Stockland&action=edit&redlink=1), Toronto Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Sun), November 30, 1989[page needed]
Quebec leaves a bad taste in the mouth, in my opinion, take these bastards and throw them into the ocean."
"I will NEVER let up in my battle against the LEFT. I will do everything that i can to get the RACIST Province of Quebec out of Canada, and to end the French Ethnocentric AFFIRMATIVE action policy within Canada that denies the 97% English Canadian MAJORITY (excluding Quebec) fair access to work in their own civil services, and hold senior ranks in Canada's military and the RCMP (National Police Force)."
there's more samples.
Viper, you seem unable to distinguish between two things:
(1) Some people in English Canada have made statements denigrating Quebec over the last century or so; and
(2) Hatred of Quebec is widespread, uncontroversial, and commonly expressed today in English Canada.
When challenged for basically stating (2), you simply find some examples of (1). In this case a Wikipedia page no less, which suffers from the further problem of being unable to distinguish "criticism of particular policies and laws passed by the Quebec government" with "statements denigrating Quebec". :lol:
If lots of people in Quebec are like viper, widespread of dislike of Quebec is not only understandable but expected.
I'm curious on how do you explain the widespread anti-americanism? :)
Not enough people like me.
Quote from: Malthus on September 21, 2016, 11:01:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 10:24:00 AM
it was widely reported by the English press at the time, and I can't remember the Gazette ever disagreed or condemned the letter, for example.
As for the generality of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Quebec_sentiment
I guess the Toronto Sun is sent to only 275 subcribers? :)
to hear people talk about Quebec culture would give Hermann Göring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) the desire to brandish his revolver." — Peter Stockland (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Stockland&action=edit&redlink=1), Toronto Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Sun), November 30, 1989[page needed]
Quebec leaves a bad taste in the mouth, in my opinion, take these bastards and throw them into the ocean."
"I will NEVER let up in my battle against the LEFT. I will do everything that i can to get the RACIST Province of Quebec out of Canada, and to end the French Ethnocentric AFFIRMATIVE action policy within Canada that denies the 97% English Canadian MAJORITY (excluding Quebec) fair access to work in their own civil services, and hold senior ranks in Canada's military and the RCMP (National Police Force)."
there's more samples.
Viper, you seem unable to distinguish between two things:
(1) Some people in English Canada have made statements denigrating Quebec over the last century or so; and
(2) Hatred of Quebec is widespread, uncontroversial, and commonly expressed today in English Canada.
When challenged for basically stating (2), you simply find some examples of (1). In this case a Wikipedia page no less, which suffers from the further problem of being unable to distinguish "criticism of particular policies and laws passed by the Quebec government" with "statements denigrating Quebec". :lol:
So, because I don't know anyone near me who dislike jews, anti-semetism is not real? Because it never came up as a topic during family dinner means it's a myth?
Good to know...
Afaik, we've talked about it before. No matter the level of evidence, no matter where it comes from (be it from a respectable Quebec journalist, a Commissionner to the Official Language, a Wikipedia page), you will always deny it because you haven't seen it yourself. Duh. I guess even Stephen Harper is a liar by your standard, when he criticized Jane Wong for her stupid comments. Comments in a national newspaper that were okayed before publishing and were defended by the media.
I'd hate to see a respectable Quebec newspaper (well, respectable might be going to far, but let's settle for "widely read") publishing stuff like that about English Canada. You have an obscure website like Vigile.net publishing some idiotic comment and B'nai Brith goes apeshit with lawsuits and press conference to denounce it.
Quote from: alfred russel on September 21, 2016, 09:14:27 AM
Joe Paterno plus the 100,000 people that honor him.
As Cato would say, "Happy Valley delenda est"
I never knew Cato was such a genius.
Quote from: Archy on September 21, 2016, 01:04:46 PM
And a completely Belgian one. Marc Dutroux.
How 'bout Leon Degrelle?
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 21, 2016, 04:40:55 AM
Amherst has made a comeback as most reviled, as the smallpox blankets episode is slowly trickling into historical imagination.
I am sure someone like Parizeau or Lévesque would count in English Canada.
Not even close on the last two, I don't think. Your murderers - like Drakkan's example - rate higher I think; and in Alberta Pierre Elliot Trudeau is more reviled than any separatist ever.
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AM
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:46:46 AM
in Quebec: James Wolfe, John George Lambton (1st Earl of Durham), Pierre-Elliot Trudeau.
In Canada: René Lévesque.
Both you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
Yeah, I expect every single recent-ish prime minister - from Mulroney to the current Trudeau - will have more haters than any given Quebecois separatist has.
Quote from: viper37 on September 21, 2016, 08:55:20 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 20, 2016, 10:00:09 PM
How do Canadians consider rebellion leaders like Louis Riel or the Quebec rebels? Romanticized?
But Drakken is right; definitely the Ken and Barbie Murders. Or Tie Domi.
Louis Riel is a simple criminal to them, while any Quebec seperatist is considered a demon.
I've actually seen Riel held up as a hero a fair bit, though perhaps only in some circles.
As for separatists most of the attitudes I see are either 1) "yeah I can sort of see their point but I hope we can keep it together"; 2) "why do they hate us so much"; or 3) "petulant children, they should stop complaining". While 3) is unpleasant, it is nowhere near considering separatists demons.
Mulroney always seemed rather boring and non-descript, although perhaps it just seemed that way because he was Canadian.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 21, 2016, 06:18:57 PM
Mulroney always seemed rather boring and non-descript, although perhaps it just seemed that way because he was Canadian.
I'll always admire Mulroney for his brave stand in favour of Free Trade.
But other than that he was a disaster, and fairly corrupt to boot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_affair
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 21, 2016, 04:40:55 AM
Amherst has made a comeback as most reviled, as the smallpox blankets episode is slowly trickling into historical imagination.
I am sure someone like Parizeau or Lévesque would count in English Canada.
Or P.E. Trudeau for many Québécois.
Quote from: HVC on September 21, 2016, 08:52:38 AMBoth you and Oex mentioned levesque, and I don't know if it's just my age, but no one I know would echo that sentiment.
You are probably right about Lévesque, who has receded into the distance of time. Parizeau's recent death resuscitated some of the more nasty comments, and, as always, the sheer contrast between the hatred being expressed in some venues, and the general assessment in Quebec, made it stand out more. That being said, the recurrent casting of sovereignists leaders as nazis or fascists hint at a level of abhorrence that I am not sure Trudeau even got.
Is this on the same level as some criminals? Of course not. But revilement of criminals serve almost a ritualistic element, in which societies reaffirm their beliefs in certain core values and principles. As such, they are interesting, but the fact that they are not controversial does not make for a long discussion, and I doubt they truly leave a mark in "history", unless it's some high profile assassination. I am more interested in those that are controversial.
Quote from: dps on September 21, 2016, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Archy on September 21, 2016, 01:04:46 PM
And a completely Belgian one. Marc Dutroux.
How 'bout Leon Degrelle?
Also but he's forgotten by most of our generation. Hitler's only useful Belgian.