Poll
Question:
Do you favor the Trans-Pacific Partnership?
Option 1: Yeah, you know me.
votes: 15
Option 2: No.
votes: 9
Option 3: Let's just trade away Jaron.
votes: 10
If you're unfamiliar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership
TPP :thumbsup:
I'm Jaron on this but against the TTIP.
Honestly don't know enough about it, so I voted Jaron.
The wailing on the alt-right and alt-left about the evils of trans-national corporations being above the law and getting billions of dollars from national government from suits about benevolent environmental/ employment policies sounds alarming; on the other hand, it comes from people who seem perpetually alarmed.
In principle I'm for free trade. In practice, I think it's possible that there are some bad decisions being made.
I'd be happy to hear from those of you who've investigated it a bit further.
I'm for free trade in principle, but in these kind of deals the devil is in the details, and there's lots of details that I don't know. So I'll go Jaron too.
Mercantilism. :wub:
Quote from: celedhring on May 24, 2016, 04:19:46 PM
I'm for free trade in principle, but in these kind of deals the devil is in the details, and there's lots of details that I don't know. So I'll go Jaron too.
Ditto.
I know nothing about it, but I am always for free trade.
I do know one thing. Parts of the Japanese anime industry hated it. They have a thriving Dojinshi industry, where people liberally use other people's anime characters and settings to write their own stories. This is generally tolerated in Japan, as the Dojinshi helps promote the work of the original artists. A lot of famed manga artists started their careers as Dojinshi. The reason the Dojinshi are in revolt is because TPP somehow makes Japan enforce their own copyright rules against the Dojinshi. No idea what became of it.
I'm down with TPP. It is not just a trade agreement with the most important economic region on the planet, it is strategic US foreign policy, and it is the national security interests of the United States to dictate the terms of the economic environment, not the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.
Besides, even without free trade agreements, jobs will get destroyed and shipped overseas anyway to increase shareholder value, might as well poke the panda while we're at it. At least trade agreements like the TPP have regulatory mechanisms in place to address everything from labor to IP. We all know what happens when companies do their own thing.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 24, 2016, 07:58:54 PM
I know nothing about it, but I am always for free trade.
I do know one thing. Parts of the Japanese anime industry hated it. They have a thriving Dojinshi industry, where people liberally use other people's anime characters and settings to write their own stories. This is generally tolerated in Japan, as the Dojinshi helps promote the work of the original artists. A lot of famed manga artists started their careers as Dojinshi. The reason the Dojinshi are in revolt is because TPP somehow makes Japan enforce their own copyright rules against the Dojinshi. No idea what became of it.
Nobody is forced to charge for IP.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2016, 08:05:59 PM
Nobody is forced to charge for IP.
I have absolutely no idea about the entire argument. I don't even read Dojinshi myself.
if jap companies were OK with fanfics pre-TPP, I wonder what TPP adds that forces their hand
No. It's trademarks & copyrights demands are appalling.
I was fine with it.
If I was American I would be pleased. As a Canadian I am wary of the dispute resolution procedures.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 24, 2016, 08:26:50 PM
No. It's trademarks & copyrights demands are appalling.
Same.
What do you guys object to? I skimmed the relevant wiki but don't feel particularly enlightened.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
What do you guys object to? I skimmed the relevant wiki but don't feel particularly enlightened.
just throwing it out there, but if TPP enforces american copyright laws on oceania, some people might be upset that asian companies would have the ability to protect their intellectual property
The most surprising thing to me is actually the thread title. Until now, I have no idea what "are you down with ___" means.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 24, 2016, 10:43:26 PM
The most surprising thing to me is actually the thread title. Until now, I have no idea what "are you down with ___" means.
https://youtu.be/6xGuGSDsDrM
Mono is down with CCP.
:lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
What do you guys object to? I skimmed the relevant wiki but don't feel particularly enlightened.
All of it. It's extension of everything. Longer terms, more controls, curtails fair uses.
Some provisions of the accord, like the intellectual property are not entirely to my liking, as I think they disfavour inovations and do not protect consumer rights of fair use.
I'm still on the fence if the advantages we gain outweight the downside of these, but it ain't entirely negative, as Trump & Sanders would paint it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
What do you guys object to? I skimmed the relevant wiki but don't feel particularly enlightened.
Mainly that the copyright holder decides what is fair use now.
Say I want to watch Game of Thrones. My recorder got broken the other day. The only legal way for me to watch it would have been to log on The Movie Network site and use their stream to watch it. In low definition, highly pixelated.
Instead, I went online and downloaded a torrent. Since I am a paid subscriber of HBO, if I were to get sued, I could have a defense there, if corporations bother to sue in Canada, which they don't for now. With the TPP, I would have been sued by HBO for hundreds of thousands of dollars and "fair use" would not have been a legitimate defense.
Besides, all these geoblock are obsolete nowadays. We should move toward easing such restrictions to access content, not impede with market laws.
Basically I am down with TPP. I do think the government has to watch itself here, these agreements are getting steadily less popular even as they continue to work. Putting a bunch of controversial measures in might doom it in the Senate.
My problem with these kinds of treaties is that once you get into them, they become very hard to adjust. It is hard enough to tweak national level laws when you realize they aren't quite working the way you want - it is basically impossible to tweak an international, multi-state treaty once some part of one of those states figures out a way to exploit some weakness in the deal.
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 08:23:37 AM
Mainly that the copyright holder decides what is fair use now..
Completely untrue.
The applicable TPP provision is Article 18.66:
QuoteEach Party shall endeavour to achieve an appropriate balance in its copyright and related rights system, among other things by means of limitations or exceptions that are consistent with Article 18.65 (Limitations and Exceptions), including those for the digital environment, giving due consideration to legitimate purposes such as, but not limited to: criticism; comment; news reporting; teaching, scholarship, research, and other similar purposes; and facilitating access to published works for persons who are blind, visually impaired or otherwise print disabled.
18.65 merely states that exceptions and limitations cannot conflict with normal exploitation of the work and "does not unreasonably prejudice" the rightholder.
Nothing in the treaty would require a party to allow copyright holders to define fair use. Indeed such a standard would conflict with 18.66 requirement of balance. (it would also conflict with US law BTW).
AFAIK the TPP is the only treaty of its kind to incorporate an actual requirement that states implement a fair use regime in copyright. So that particular criticism is really misplaced.
What you may have been thinking of is that the TPP would extend prohibitions on the use of devices to circumvent technological prevention measures, as is currently included in the American DMCA law. That I could see giving rise to objections and concerns although in my understanding it hasn't caused any signficiant problems in the US.
My opinion is that the likely direct economic benefits are minimal. As are the disadvantages. However, voting it down would be a diplomatic embarrassment and hand regional initiative and economic leadership to the PRC. IMO it's a no brainer to sign.
I'm down with TPP, but I use some Wet Wipes first.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 25, 2016, 09:36:54 AM
My opinion is that the likely direct economic benefits are minimal. As are the disadvantages. However, voting it down would be a diplomatic embarrassment and hand regional initiative and economic leadership to the PRC. IMO it's a no brainer to sign.
Agree.
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 08:23:37 AM
Instead, I went online and downloaded a torrent. Since I am a paid subscriber of HBO, if I were to get sued, I could have a defense there, if corporations bother to sue in Canada, which they don't for now. With the TPP, I would have been sued by HBO for hundreds of thousands of dollars and "fair use" would not have been a legitimate defense.
how many people have lost to successful lawsuits re: illegal downloading of movies? I recall a few instances re: songs a few years back, and I know companies send settlement offers, but I haven't heard of anyone losing a lawsuit in this area.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 25, 2016, 09:36:54 AM
My opinion is that the likely direct economic benefits are minimal. As are the disadvantages. However, voting it down would be a diplomatic embarrassment and hand regional initiative and economic leadership to the PRC. IMO it's a no brainer to sign.
This and a bag of chips.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 25, 2016, 09:36:54 AM
My opinion is that the likely direct economic benefits are minimal. As are the disadvantages. However, voting it down would be a diplomatic embarrassment and hand regional initiative and economic leadership to the PRC. IMO it's a no brainer to sign.
The Japanese seem to be putting a lot of stock on it. Although they may just be grasping at straws at this point, economy-wise.
Quote from: derspiess on May 25, 2016, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 25, 2016, 09:36:54 AM
My opinion is that the likely direct economic benefits are minimal. As are the disadvantages. However, voting it down would be a diplomatic embarrassment and hand regional initiative and economic leadership to the PRC. IMO it's a no brainer to sign.
Agree.
Yet you cheer on Bernie :hmm:
Yep.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2016, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: Liep on May 24, 2016, 04:05:37 PM
I'm Jaron on this but against the TTIP.
Why?
Equalising (or what you would call it) on environment standards or consumer protection could leave the EU pretty poorly battered. And the fact that companies can sue individual countries for lost profits if they think the countries' consumer laws prohibit them from entering that market is another detail I don't care very much for.
I haven't read the agreement, but just heard this from a pro EU and free-trade politician that is worried about the TTIP.
TTIP in theory is ok. There's too much being made of how it will fuck everything up and force us to privatise health care and generally go back to victorian times.
I trust the EU to negotiate well to exclude the nasty stuff like that. I also don't think the US is particularly concerned about those markets, it would like them included of course but isn't going to throw away the more innocent stuff for it.
The most telling part of ttip is negotiations are taking a long time.
Though I do wish free movement of people was central to it. :(
Tpp....don't know as much about it though I feel similar. As long as countries aren't been brought down to Americas level then reducing trade barriers is good.
I'm not against trade agreements. But healthcare, education and other public services have no place in a trade agreement.
And like Liep said, lowering of environmental and safety standards is a serious concern.
If any of those make it into the final TTIP draft I'm confident the government will veto it, if only to prevent the embarrassment of another referendum.
Quote from: LaCroix on May 25, 2016, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2016, 08:23:37 AM
Instead, I went online and downloaded a torrent. Since I am a paid subscriber of HBO, if I were to get sued, I could have a defense there, if corporations bother to sue in Canada, which they don't for now. With the TPP, I would have been sued by HBO for hundreds of thousands of dollars and "fair use" would not have been a legitimate defense.
how many people have lost to successful lawsuits re: illegal downloading of movies? I recall a few instances re: songs a few years back, and I know companies send settlement offers, but I haven't heard of anyone losing a lawsuit in this area.
In the US, I don't know. In Canada, it was left in a grey void until last January after being thrown out of court by a judge. Since then, there has not been any pursuit I am aware of, except for "real" pirates, meaning people who stole digital content from cable and uploaded a stream to be accessible from the internet for 5$/month. Nothing like the RIAA sueing a family mother for zillions of dollars.
But it could happen. With TPP, it's going to be easier for American copyright holders to sue canadian citizens, I fear.
Quote from: Maladict on May 26, 2016, 05:01:41 AM
I'm not against trade agreements. But healthcare, education and other public services have no place in a trade agreement.
And like Liep said, lowering of environmental and safety standards is a serious concern.
If any of those make it into the final TTIP draft I'm confident the government will veto it, if only to prevent the embarrassment of another referendum.
You know, I keep hearing the same argument over&over since Canada signed a bilateral free trade agreement with the US. Our hospitals will be privatized, our schools will be privatized, the government will be forced to accept American babysitter multinationals to operate the kindergardens, etc, etc.
Did not happen until now, doubt it will ever happen.
Is TPP the sickness?
Quote from: viper37 on May 26, 2016, 01:30:19 PM
Did not happen until now, doubt it will ever happen.
Then why try to include it? It only increases the public's opposition to it.
Quote from: Liep on May 26, 2016, 03:36:51 AM
Equalising (or what you would call it)
Maybe harmonizing.