Very good article, thanks Psellus:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/its-not-just-donald-trump-the-right-is-tearing-itself-apart-everywhere/
QuoteIs Boris Johnson turning into the thinking man's Donald Trump? Just like the Donald, he's got funny hair, charisma, and an appetite for women. He may not be as rich as Trump — although we were all impressed by his latest contribution to the Exchequer — but he makes up for that by having a much bigger vocabulary. He's also able to get away with saying outrageous things because people think he's entertaining. And in his efforts to persuade Britain to leave the European Union, Boris seems to be appealing to the same anti-politics mood that Trump is exploiting across the pond.
No, I'm not talking about that 'part–Kenyan' remark about Barack Obama, which has been taken out of context. I mean his dredging up of that faux outrage which was Obama's decision to remove a bust of Winston Churchill from the Oval Office, and his conspiratorial mutterings about the CIA's involvement in the formation of the European Union. Michael Gove, the other Tory big beast in the Vote Leave campaign, hardly struck a blow for sanity when he said a vote to remain in the EU would leave the British looking like 'hostages locked in the back of a car'.
Vote Leave has been eager to distance itself from the fruitier elements of Ukip and the Tory right. God forbid anybody calls them swivel-eyed. But in politics today, crazy is all the rage. No matter how much the 'out' campaigners may want to sound normal and positive, they know that to win they must tap into the same forces which are pushing Trump towards the Republican nomination — a distrust of the political elite and a fury at the lack of democratic accountability in this bewildering age of globalisation.
That's where the political energy is on the right. Everywhere you look, in country after country, batty nationalists are winning and conservative pragmatists are running scared. The victory on Sunday of Austria's Freedom party candidate, Norbert Hofer, who likes to carry a gun, is just the latest in a series of gains for this new right-wing populism. We see it happening across Europe — in Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Finland, Greece, Italy, Poland, Hungary, not to mention Switzerland.
The extent to which these movements can be described as 'fascist' or even 'far-right' varies in each case, as does the credibility of their threat to the status quo, but what unites them is an unconservative rage against the 'system', and a desire to punish established right-of-centre parties for having betrayed their people. The paranoid style in American politics, first identified by the historian Richard Hofstadter in the Republican party as long ago as 1964, has gone global. What Hofstadter called 'heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy' pretty much defines conservatism everywhere.
As Kurt Cobain put it (quoting Joseph Heller), 'Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you.' And just because people are angry doesn't mean they've gone round the twist. If you are a German whose country has just accepted 1.5 million immigrants in one year because Angela Merkel wanted to show the world (or Facebook) how kind she was, you might understandably feel disenfranchised, and want to support the radical Alternative für Deutschland, or attend one of those anti-Islam Pegida rallies. If you are a Frenchman living under President François Hollande's seemingly permanent 'état d'urgence' after several appalling terrorist attacks in Paris, you might begin to understand the appeal of Marine Le Pen. And if you are an unemployed Italian, whose country has had three successive unelected prime ministers, you might have good reason to think that democracy is a sham. It's a logical response to an illogical world.
[Alt-Text]
The right has lots to be angry about. The trouble is that conservatives are not just mad in the American sense, meaning cross; they are mad in the English sense, meaning insane. As Charles Moore put it in The Spectator a few weeks ago, what we see in the rise of Donald Trump is political incorrectness gone mad. People are so fed up of being told not just what they can or can't say but how they should think that they are lashing out in all sorts of weird directions.
Trump's popularity is pushed online by an increasingly bizarre movement known as the 'alt-right'. This is a ragtag army of professional trolls on Twitter, libertarian bloggers, and hard-right activists, bound by nothing other than a shared love of offending politically correct sensibilities. The alt-right is not purely in it for the LOLs, however. Its followers also flirt with misogyny and white supremacy, then plead irony when they are called out as sexist or racist. In Trump, a.k.a. 'Daddy', they have an ideal candidate. It's all very hilarious. It's also deranged.
The left has gone bananas, too, of course. Jeremy Corbyn is leader of the Labour party, remember. That leather-clad cypher Yanis Varoufakis is considered a major public intellectual. But centre-left parties can still deploy a unifying vocabulary of -economic justice and human rights that speaks to issues of inequality across borders. The right, on the other hand, is torn between its enthusiasm for international capitalism and its love of country and tradition.
In recent years, the British Conservative party appeared to have solved the conundrum — to outside observers, at least. David Cameron just about won an election in 2010, then triumphed last year. Jealous American moderates looked to Cameron's example as a model for how, post-crash, a right-of–centre party could seize and hold power. Cameron, they said, had successfully modernised the Tories. He'd embraced socialised healthcare, gay marriage and environmentalism, which made him acceptable to the mainstream, while being tough (or tougher) on immigration and government overspending, which kept the right happy. He'd compromised his way to victory, as great Conservatives do.
How silly that argument looks now. As every Tory knows, there is no Cameron-ism. The Big Society agenda — the Burkean waffle about little platoons — was a philosophical fig leaf for a party that was making up its beliefs as it went along. David Cameron has never come close to building any grand coalition; he has been lucky. He won last year's general election because the opposition was led by Ed Miliband; because Scottish voters dramatically deserted Labour for the SNP; and because Conservative voters believed that his bold reforming agenda had been checked by the Liberal Democrats.
In Britain, the right-wing insurgency represented by Ukip would already be a major parliamentary force were it not for the first-past-the-post system (peace be upon it). If the House of Commons were chosen according to a proportional system, Ukip, having won almost 4 million votes in May, would hold around 80 seats. And Nigel Farage's barmy army might well have made even greater strides had it not been for the fact that Cameron had offered a huge pre–election sop to the right by promising a referendum over Britain's EU membership.
Now the referendum has come back to bite Cameron, and his luck is running out. The Brexit debate is having a similar effect on the Tories as Trump's candidacy has had on the Republicans, forcing the party to confront the very real possibility of its imminent demise. Whether or not Trump becomes the party's nominee for the presidential election in November, the Republicans now look sunk. The same applies to the Conservatives and the referendum. If the country votes to remain, David Cameron will have alienated a majority of his party's support, possibly forever. If the country votes to leave, David Cameron, the first successful Tory leader in a generation, will have to resign.
The Brexit issue has forced Cameron's party to ask itself questions that centre-right parties everywhere would really rather avoid. Is economic growth more important than national sovereignty? And is our country really that great? For decades, Conservatives have muddled on by insisting that, while Britain may be going to dogs, it's the fault of the nanny state or the EU. But the possibility of leaving the European Union has exposed the doublethink at the heart of modern conservatism, which is that it wants to be at once patriotic and self-loathing.
And if you want to see where patriotic self-loathing gets you, look at Donald Trump. His campaign to Make America Great Again sounds upbeat, but the message is fundamentally negative. Trump says that the greatest country in the world has been wrecked. He tells Republican voters that the American Dream is dead and that Washington and their party have sold them out — and they love him for it.
Maybe the wonks in Washington who wanted the Republican party to imitate Cameron had things the wrong way round. After all, Cameron's 'compassionate conservatism' was initially borrowed from George W. Bush. Like the Cameroons, the Bushies tried to 'achieve progressive ends by conservative means', whatever that meant. But the Republicans are now learning that, to survive, a party must demonstrate compassion to the people who actually vote for them, not just the people who might. The Conservatives may soon be taught the same lesson.
For decades, the Republicans pretended to hear the concerns of their lower-class voters about issues such as immigration, only to ignore them when it came to enacting policy. You can only do this so many times before voters find a way to punish you at the ballot. In 2016, the Republican electorate have rejected all the establishment's preferred choices. Their second choice is Ted Cruz, a hard-right conservative and fervent evangelical, who is unacceptable to the more moderate party elite. But their first choice is a mad postmodern joke: a billionaire who doesn't seem to stand for anything beyond offending people, and who is so used to being a TV star that he cannot distinguish between his 'polls' and 'ratings'. Perhaps we are seeing the future of right-wing politics, and it's Donald Trump.
The British pride themselves on not giving in to extremism. We never embraced communism or fascism because we are inherently conservative. But all over the world, conservatism is having a nervous breakdown. The right is tearing itself apart. And the EU referendum is proving that British Conservatives can be as barmy as everyone else.
Great article.
QuoteThe paranoid style in American politics, first identified by the historian Richard Hofstadter in the Republican party as long ago as 1964, has gone global. What Hofstadter called 'heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy' pretty much defines conservatism everywhere.
You're welcome world!
Like I'm going to believe that globalist anti-American shit.
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 08:58:41 AM
Like I'm going to believe that globalist anti-American shit.
Well fortunately for you there are hundreds of American think pieces discussing the same thing.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 09:00:38 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 08:58:41 AM
Like I'm going to believe that globalist anti-American shit.
Well fortunately for you there are hundreds of American think pieces discussing the same thing.
So the globalist conspiracy is rampant in the US. Great :(
What I find fascinating about this is how fake it all is - the entire "crisis" spicey and those like him imagine is mostly a figment of their imagination.
There *is* a crisis, of course, but it isn't the crisis they think, and in fact the crisis they imagine is almost certainly just a handy red herring used to distract them from the real issues. But that red herring might just be worse than any actual problem, if it gets the masses to follow along with radical demagogues like Trump and Cruz.
This feel like sitting back and watching, in slow motion, someone drive a school bus off a cliff because they are worried about a dear in the road.
BoJo is sounding increasingly nutty. There appears a close correlation between being Mayor of London and insanity.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/28/ken-livingstone-suspended-from-labour-after-hitler-remarks
Quote from: Berkut on April 28, 2016, 09:16:00 AM
This feel like sitting back and watching, in slow motion, someone drive a school bus off a cliff because they are worried about a dear in the road.
You would just run the loved one right over, huh?
Quote from: Berkut on April 28, 2016, 09:16:00 AM
What I find fascinating about this is how fake it all is - the entire "crisis" spicey and those like him imagine is mostly a figment of their imagination.
:o
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 09:48:26 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 28, 2016, 09:16:00 AM
What I find fascinating about this is how fake it all is - the entire "crisis" spicey and those like him imagine is mostly a figment of their imagination.
:o
I don't think Spicey is really that guy who is predicting the imminent collapse of the US and is stockpiling farm land and AK-47 spare parts.
Not at all. Technically our land in Argentina is in my wife's name. And AK parts are flipping expensive these days. AR parts the thing to buy.
It used to be that the lunatic fringe circulated amongst themselves and the rest of us didnt have to worry about them too much. The main means of communications were dominated by more reasonable and rational discourse. In the age of social media the voice of the lunatic fringe reaches a greater audience and President Trump becomes a possibility.
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
Not at all. Technically our land in Argentina is in my wife's name. And AK parts are flipping expensive these days. AR parts the thing to buy.
See? Calling Spicey paranoid is totally unjustified.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 28, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
It used to be that the lunatic fringe circulated amongst themselves and the rest of us didnt have to worry about them too much. The main means of communications were dominated by more reasonable and rational discourse. In the age of social media the voice of the lunatic fringe reaches a greater audience and President Trump becomes a possibility.
Remembering all the populist BS politicians used in the past 100+ years to get elected, well, everywhere (US included) makes me seriously doubt that explanation.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 10:08:45 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
Not at all. Technically our land in Argentina is in my wife's name. And AK parts are flipping expensive these days. AR parts the thing to buy.
See? Calling Spicey paranoid is totally unjustified.
Pfft. He doesn't even seem to have a bunker. :rolleyes: He's prepared for nothing.
Sometimes I think it's just that we are an agressive uppity monkey species who are instinctivily start stearing up shit when things are calm.
So eventually one of these fully insane parties is going to seize power in some major first world nation right? I wonder who gets the boobie prize. The Republicans seem closest since they control both the House and Senate but if their fringe completely takes over can they keep that up? We'll see.
Quote from: Tamas on April 28, 2016, 10:17:39 AM
Sometimes I think it's just that we are an agressive uppity monkey species who are instinctivily start stearing up shit when things are calm.
Prosperity seems to drive us insane. See: the western world in the early 1910s and 1960s. Weird.
Tell me more about this boobie prize.
Thread title needs a Lisa.
Quote from: Tamas on April 28, 2016, 10:17:39 AM
Sometimes I think it's just that we are an agressive uppity monkey species who are instinctivily start stearing up shit when things are calm.
A self-hating Hungarian. What a shocker.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 28, 2016, 10:17:39 AM
Sometimes I think it's just that we are an agressive uppity monkey species who are instinctivily start stearing up shit when things are calm.
Prosperity seems to drive us insane. See: the western world in the early 1910s and 1960s. Weird.
Not at all. It is just that satisfaction of basic needs allows people to spend effort countering less existential problems. People never run out of problems, they only run out of attention span.
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Tell me more about this boobie prize.
It comes from Spanish, bobo. The stupid prize.
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2016, 10:50:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 28, 2016, 10:17:39 AM
Sometimes I think it's just that we are an agressive uppity monkey species who are instinctivily start stearing up shit when things are calm.
Prosperity seems to drive us insane. See: the western world in the early 1910s and 1960s. Weird.
Not at all. It is just that satisfaction of basic needs allows people to spend effort countering less existential problems. People never run out of problems, they only run out of attention span.
:yes:
It is also something that is lovingly modeled in Vic2. :)
Quote from: garbon on April 28, 2016, 11:27:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 28, 2016, 10:50:16 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 28, 2016, 10:17:39 AM
Sometimes I think it's just that we are an agressive uppity monkey species who are instinctivily start stearing up shit when things are calm.
Prosperity seems to drive us insane. See: the western world in the early 1910s and 1960s. Weird.
Not at all. It is just that satisfaction of basic needs allows people to spend effort countering less existential problems. People never run out of problems, they only run out of attention span.
:yes:
It is also something that is lovingly modeled in Vic2. :)
:hmm:
Good point. I KNEW I should have played more Vic2.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Tell me more about this boobie prize.
It comes from Spanish, bobo. The stupid prize.
That's disappointing.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Tell me more about this boobie prize.
It comes from Spanish, bobo. The stupid prize.
Seriously? I thought it came from the bird.
Interesting stuff, good article, and yes the right is tearing itself apart in this election cycle.
Yeah well Ank has basically called me everything from a traitor to a subhuman monster for daring to support a candidate with slightly different policies than his so we will see how long the left holds together :lol:
His descent into paranoia and hyperbole has been difficult to watch.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 28, 2016, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 10:26:21 AM
Tell me more about this boobie prize.
It comes from Spanish, bobo. The stupid prize.
Seriously? I thought it came from the bird.
Yes. Doesn't that make sense than being named after a random bird? :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 11:56:11 AM
Yes. Doesn't that make sense than being named after a random bird? :hmm:
I'm such a dodo. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 28, 2016, 11:56:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 11:56:11 AM
Yes. Doesn't that make sense than being named after a random bird? :hmm:
I'm such a dodo. :Embarrass:
:console:
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Yeah well Ank has basically called me everything from a traitor to a subhuman monster for daring to support a candidate with slightly different policies than his so we will see how long the left holds together :lol:
His descent into paranoia and hyperbole has been difficult to watch.
Has he really?
I know he posts constant pro-Sanders articles, but I didn't know he'd gone that far.
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2016, 12:07:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Yeah well Ank has basically called me everything from a traitor to a subhuman monster for daring to support a candidate with slightly different policies than his so we will see how long the left holds together :lol:
His descent into paranoia and hyperbole has been difficult to watch.
Has he really?
I know he posts constant pro-Sanders articles, but I didn't know he'd gone that far.
He has announced he will write Bernie in the general. We are all evil and corrupt for supporting her apparently. FFS. The Republicans are less unhinged about Hillary than some of these Bernie supporters.
The truth is we are all subhuman monsters (here in languish). :(
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2016, 12:07:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Yeah well Ank has basically called me everything from a traitor to a subhuman monster for daring to support a candidate with slightly different policies than his so we will see how long the left holds together :lol:
His descent into paranoia and hyperbole has been difficult to watch.
Has he really?
I know he posts constant pro-Sanders articles, but I didn't know he'd gone that far.
He has announced he will write Bernie in the general. We are all evil and corrupt for supporting her apparently. FFS. The Republicans are less unhinged about Hillary than some of these Bernie supporters.
The Bernie Bros on my Faceborks are really losing it as much as Ank is. It's really quite weird to see people I talk with on a weekly basis believe there's some sort of conspiracy behind Google calling a state for Hillary when the returns for a primary are at 4%.
Quote from: lustindarkness on April 28, 2016, 12:23:21 PM
The truth is we are all subhuman monsters (here in languish). :(
:weep:
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 28, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
The main means of communications were dominated by more reasonable and rational discourse.
No, not really. There are a number of scares, and ideologies like nazism and fascism that spread without modern means of communications. It's faster today, because in 1890 it took 3 weeks to get news from London while it takes 3 minutes today, including the time to type it, but the problematic remains the same.
People have this inherent need to believe they are pretty, intelligent, special. They also have this inherent need to seek an outside cause to their perceive ills. Some people/groups are inherently good at exploiting these weaknesses. I mean, there were people voting Trudeau because they thought Canada was in danger of becoming a fascist country. Proves to me that this whole conspiracy thing isn't exclusive to the US and the conservative movements.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
The Republicans are less unhinged about Hillary than some of these Bernie supporters.
Most Democrats believe Trump will be beaten by Hillary, so no real cause for concern.
Most Republicans believe Sanders will be beaten by a monkey flying GOP colors, so no real cause for concern.
Any attack by the Republicans against Hillary will make her more popular.
So, that likely explains why the Republicans are less unhingd about Hillary than some of these Bernie supporters.
I think people just want war or a crisis. If there isnt one they make it.
Quote from: viper37 on April 28, 2016, 12:27:32 PM
So, that likely explains why the Republicans are less unhingd about Hillary than some of these Bernie supporters.
I am not talking about this election V, I am talking about 1992-present :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on April 28, 2016, 12:33:47 PM
I think people just want war or a crisis. If there isnt one they make it.
Well maybe not a crisis, but...
Who is the bedrock of Trump supporters? Whites without college education. And those people are in a lot of trouble. They're dying at ever increasing rates, living standards are falling, etc.
Who is the bedrock of Sanders supporters? Millenials. And again, they're in some trouble as well. Crippling student debt, housing prices make owning a home look unobtainable.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:35:56 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 28, 2016, 12:27:32 PM
So, that likely explains why the Republicans are less unhingd about Hillary than some of these Bernie supporters.
I am not talking about this election V, I am talking about 1992-present :lol:
oh, sorry.
On second thought, I think it is too easy to write it off on "people have it too easy these days". I think it's a combination of many things, some of them even contradictory, eg:
- asymmetric recovery from the financial crisis
- complacency of political elites
- breaking of the stranglehold of the mainstream on public discourse because of emergence of social media
- growing irrelevance of the old right vs. left divide leading to massive political realignment
- domination of leftist identity politics in academic and intellectual discourse
- lack of single geopolitical existential threat / emergence of the multi-polar world
- decline of Christianity in the West creating a "values' vacuum"
- increasing pace of technological growth, deepening the cultural divide between generations
- policies prioritising growth over social cohesion
- post-Marxist sociopolitical models reducing human differences to economy
I could go on.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Yeah well Ank has basically called me everything from a traitor to a subhuman monster for daring to support a candidate with slightly different policies than his so we will see how long the left holds together :lol:
His descent into paranoia and hyperbole has been difficult to watch.
the left is in pretty bad shape too. So it's more the center that's being torn apart.
Seems we're about ready for a new revolution a la may 68. But to the 'right' now seeing how the 'left' has become more about protecting their privileges rather than progress.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
He has announced he will write Bernie in the general.
Ank's a good man and I think you all should lay off of him for that.
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
He has announced he will write Bernie in the general.
Ank's a good man and I think you all should lay off of him for that.
:lol:
Maybe Oregon will go your way this time.
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
He has announced he will write Bernie in the general.
Ank's a good man and I think you all should lay off of him for that.
Can we count on you to vote third party as promised? :cool:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 28, 2016, 02:24:44 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 28, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
He has announced he will write Bernie in the general.
Ank's a good man and I think you all should lay off of him for that.
Can we count on you to vote third party as promised? :cool:
I promise... to act as my conscience dictates.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 12:08:26 PM
He has announced he will write Bernie in the general. We are all evil and corrupt for supporting her apparently. FFS. The Republicans are less unhinged about Hillary than some of these Bernie supporters.
That is really disappointing. A Bernie Sanders facebook group gets taken down, "OMG HILLARY CLINTON ORDERED THIS!"
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2016, 12:38:40 PM
Who is the bedrock of Sanders supporters? Millenials. And again, they're in some trouble as well. Crippling student debt, housing prices make owning a home look unobtainable.
I've seen it claimed that while Sanders has a large share of Millenials, most of them are ready to vote Hillary once she takes the nomination. The "Bernie is awesome and Hillary is evil" contingent apparently skews much older (and still white).
Quote from: Jacob on April 28, 2016, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2016, 12:38:40 PM
Who is the bedrock of Sanders supporters? Millenials. And again, they're in some trouble as well. Crippling student debt, housing prices make owning a home look unobtainable.
I've seen it claimed that while Sanders has a large share of Millenials, most of them are ready to vote Hillary once she takes the nomination. The "Bernie is awesome and Hillary is evil" contingent apparently skews much older (and still white).
Could well be. While most of Sanders support comes from the youngsters, he definitely has brought all the hard-left cranks of any age out of the woodwork as well.
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2016, 03:53:43 PM
Could well be. While most of Sanders support comes from the youngsters, he definitely has brought all the hard-left cranks of any age out of the woodwork as well.
And some strange hard-right ones as well (there's a section of people who are all "Trump or Sanders"). There is a not insignificant number of libertarians and form Ron Paul supporters amongst the Bern crowd too which seems weird on the face of it. Maybe it isn't though, I think there's a hard-contrarian demographic out there, who care more about saying fuck you to the system and kicking the apple cart a bit than about left or right, so as long as the rhetoric sounds like that they're down. That's my guess, anyhow.
Bernie and Trump are the outsiders. I imagine the overlap among the fed up crowd is probably not insignificant.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 28, 2016, 04:05:38 PM
Bernie and Trump are the outsiders. I imagine the overlap among the fed up crowd is probably not insignificant.
Stay gold, Ponyboy. Stay gold.
:unsure:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 28, 2016, 04:20:27 PM
:unsure:
The Outsiders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outsiders_(film))
Quote from: viper37 on April 28, 2016, 12:25:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 28, 2016, 10:01:39 AM
The main means of communications were dominated by more reasonable and rational discourse.
No, not really. There are a number of scares, and ideologies like nazism and fascism that spread without modern means of communications. It's faster today, because in 1890 it took 3 weeks to get news from London while it takes 3 minutes today, including the time to type it, but the problematic remains the same.
Yes, these extreme ideologies were the exception. Look at my sig for the rule that used to be in place.
Quote from: Jacob on April 28, 2016, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2016, 03:53:43 PM
Could well be. While most of Sanders support comes from the youngsters, he definitely has brought all the hard-left cranks of any age out of the woodwork as well.
And some strange hard-right ones as well (there's a section of people who are all "Trump or Sanders"). There is a not insignificant number of libertarians and form Ron Paul supporters amongst the Bern crowd too which seems weird on the face of it. Maybe it isn't though, I think there's a hard-contrarian demographic out there, who care more about saying fuck you to the system and kicking the apple cart a bit than about left or right, so as long as the rhetoric sounds like that they're down. That's my guess, anyhow.
At least among my social circle, of the former Paul supporters who are now Bernie supporters, it has the most to do with their sharing many positions on foreign policy, defense spending, and corporate welfare. I guess that could count as 'fuck the system' but I don't see it as that amongst them.
Quote from: Valmy on April 28, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Yeah well Ank has basically called me everything from a traitor to a subhuman monster for daring to support a candidate with slightly different policies than his so we will see how long the left holds together :lol:
His descent into paranoia and hyperbole has been difficult to watch.
Ank was out in the sun too long, running around the Gulf and the Levant doing his T.E. Lawrence thing with the local tribesmen since 9/11.
Getting that commission in the Jordanian Army probably didn't help, swelled his head something fierce.
People can get to wrapped up with the pundit's spin. I had folks unfriend me on FB after the Obama's win over Mittens. No great loss. It didn't help that I trolled them epically.
The Right "is" tearing, no the Right has torn itself apart. They just keep digging deeper with all the red state b.s. legislation against gays, tranny's and the like. They hide behind religion while doing it too.
This is retrenching of the wings within the parties. Granted, the one in the GOP has been going on longer and is much more extreme, but it's happening to them both. These things happen from time to time.
What is exacerbating it is the unintended consequences of
Citizens United--we saw it 2012, with Gingrich lasting much longer than he should've, and Paul's people making things noisy at the convention, and now we're seeing candidates dragging things on even farther. Bernie should've packed up ages ago, but he didn't. Same with the GOP; if it were anybody but Trump, this thing would've been called.
Everybody was afraid that
Citizens United was going to allow the donor crowd to gift wrap the Presidency--what they really didn't see coming was how it would give a candidate like Bernie buoyancy far above his actual electoral credibility, and make party fractures look like grand canyons.
QuoteThey just keep digging deeper with all the red state b.s. legislation against gays, tranny's and the like. They hide behind religion while doing it too.
This is the Reagan Revolution finally consuming itself; today's GOP is the bastard child of the unholy marriage of Reaganauts and the megachurches in the mid- and late '80s.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 28, 2016, 08:21:50 PM
This is retrenching of the wings within the parties. Granted, the one in the GOP has been going on longer and is much more extreme, but it's happening to them both. These things happen from time to time.
What is exacerbating it is the unintended consequences of Citizens United--we saw it 2012, with Gingrich lasting much longer than he should've, and Paul's people making things noisy at the convention, and now we're seeing candidates dragging things on even farther. Bernie should've packed up ages ago, but he didn't. Same with the GOP; if it were anybody but Trump, this thing would've been called.
Everybody was afraid that Citizens United was going to allow the donor crowd to gift wrap the Presidency--what they really didn't see coming was how it would give a candidate like Bernie buoyancy far above his actual electoral credibility, and make party fractures look like grand canyons.
Well CU was certainly responsible in part for the mess that was the GOP primary, I don't see how it can be held responsible for Sanders. He's raised the vast majority of his money from small donors. In fact with out CU, Hillary would have been absolutely crushed fund raising wise, to such an extent she might have lost.
he can tout his small donors all he wants; it just means he can turn to them again and again without having to hit the legal limit. It's still a shell game, made easier by CU.
And a nurse's union PAC is still a Super PAC, even if it doesn't call itself one.
Quote from: 11B4V on April 28, 2016, 07:54:43 PM
People can get to wrapped up with the pundit's spin. I had folks unfriend me on FB after the Obama's win over Mittens. No great loss. It didn't help that I trolled them epically.
The Right "is" tearing, no the Right has torn itself apart. They just keep digging deeper with all the red state b.s. legislation against gays, tranny's and the like. They hide behind religion while doing it too.
For some reason they are all up in arms against Target for having co-ed bathrooms. And I mean really up in arms. It's like it's the second most important topic on Breitbart after the primaries. :D
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 12:29:41 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on April 28, 2016, 07:54:43 PM
People can get to wrapped up with the pundit's spin. I had folks unfriend me on FB after the Obama's win over Mittens. No great loss. It didn't help that I trolled them epically.
The Right "is" tearing, no the Right has torn itself apart. They just keep digging deeper with all the red state b.s. legislation against gays, tranny's and the like. They hide behind religion while doing it too.
For some reason they are all up in arms against Target for having co-ed bathrooms. And I mean really up in arms. It's like it's the second most important topic on Breitbart after the primaries. :D
No kidding. Not that there aren't more important issues at hand. :D
Looking from the outside, Toiletgate shows both sides in a very pathetic light
Maher's take on the Toiletgate was the best, imho:
"If you look like a woman, use the women's bathroom. If you look like a man use the men's bathroom. If you look like a bearded dude in a dress, hold it until you get home."
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 01:53:24 AM
Maher's take on the Toiletgate was the best, imho:
"If you look like a woman, use the women's bathroom. If you look like a man use the men's bathroom. If you look like a bearded dude in a dress, hold it until you get home."
What's good about that? :huh:
It's simple, easy and antagonises the fewest people.
Easy and simple would be for people to just get along with their business / stop creating fake problems to diver attention.
Well I guess the point is that it's really not a big deal.
And I don't like when the progressive side is so willing to climb down to the retards level and start mud-wrestling on non-issues like this.
I am quite sure in those states with this new restriction, there are plenty other discrimination happening to gay and transgender people, not to mention the ridicoulous airtime it seem to be getting nationally in the US. Is it really so awesome over there that there are no other issues left to discuss, make a stand, and protest about?
It is such a standard Politics 101 BS to create a storm in a teapot over some non-issue in order to switch focus from something you really want focus away, be it bad governance or corruption or whatever else. It always puzzles me why the opposition is so happy to indulge and join in.
I agree it is quite the non-issue...except for if you actually happen to be transgender and your appearance doesn't match your appearance. I can't imaging being hassled/shamed when just trying to pee.
I see nothing wrong in taking umbrage with taxpayer money be wasted to pass laws to discriminate against a tiny subset of the population.
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2016, 04:48:16 AM
I agree it is quite the non-issue...except for if you actually happen to be transgender and your appearance doesn't match your appearance. I can't imaging being hassled/shamed when just trying to pee.
I see nothing wrong in taking umbrage with taxpayer money be wasted to pass laws to discriminate against a tiny subset of the population.
It must be confusing to have your appearance not match your appearance.
:blush:
I guess that the appearance that many people are trying to project often does not match their actual appearance.
How is this even being enforced anyways? If it only the judgement of a person in a womenly dress looking suspiciously male-like, that can't be too foolproof :D
And the other end of the spectrum is that if you are a guy with a beard in a dress trying to force yourself to a female public toilet then you are just an attention whore plain and simple.
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 01:53:24 AM
Maher's take on the Toiletgate was the best, imho:
"If you look like a woman, use the women's bathroom. If you look like a man use the men's bathroom. If you look like a bearded dude in a dress, hold it until you get home."
Who will be the arbiter of the dude in a dress/ugly transexual line?
Quote from: Tamas on April 29, 2016, 05:08:59 AM
How is this even being enforced anyways? If it only the judgement of a person in a womenly dress looking suspiciously male-like, that can't be too foolproof :D
And the other end of the spectrum is that if you are a guy with a beard in a dress trying to force yourself to a female public toilet then you are just an attention whore plain and simple.
Again I don't understand why it is an issue. I've used women's restrooms before and I've seen many women use men's restrooms. All survived unscathed.
It is a diversionary tactic. Big heterosexual men with enormous beards and dressed in tutus are going to go on a rape rampage in the toilets of the USA if trans people are allowed to use the toilet they are comfortable with.......................or maybe not.
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 01:53:24 AM
Maher's take on the Toiletgate was the best, imho:
"If you look like a woman, use the women's bathroom. If you look like a man use the men's bathroom. If you look like a bearded dude in a dress, hold it until you get home."
arabs in djellaba's out of luck again :D
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2016, 05:12:27 AM
Again I don't understand why it is an issue. I've used women's restrooms before and I've seen many women use men's restrooms. All survived unscathed.
If it's a single toilet, like in a convenience store or a drug store or something like that, I've used one in an emergency. As long as it can be locked. Sometimes you simply can't wait for the geriatric or the daddy changing his kid's diapers, you know.
Only got a dirty look once coming out. Told her I put the seat down.
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2016, 05:12:27 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 29, 2016, 05:08:59 AM
How is this even being enforced anyways? If it only the judgement of a person in a womenly dress looking suspiciously male-like, that can't be too foolproof :D
And the other end of the spectrum is that if you are a guy with a beard in a dress trying to force yourself to a female public toilet then you are just an attention whore plain and simple.
Again I don't understand why it is an issue. I've used women's restrooms before and I've seen many women use men's restrooms. All survived unscathed.
I dunno.
Women using mens happens way too much. Needs stopping. Makes it impossible to poo.
But a man using woman's. ...... not allowed.
I suppose a lot of the anti-gay and anti-transgendered backlash comes from some gay and transgendered people simply being assholes. Like those faggots who insisted on making a national scandal because some bakery somewhere would not bake them a cake. I would not be surprised if the toilet outcry started with some trannies getting nasty looks in a women's toilet and making a fuss out of it.
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 07:54:05 AM
I suppose a lot of the anti-gay and anti-transgendered backlash comes from some gay and transgendered people simply being assholes. Like those faggots who insisted on making a national scandal because some bakery somewhere would not bake them a cake. I would not be surprised if the toilet outcry started with some trannies getting nasty looks in a women's toilet and making a fuss out of it.
Yeah but we know you are an idiot so who cares what would or would not surprise you? :huh:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2016, 06:39:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2016, 05:12:27 AM
Again I don't understand why it is an issue. I've used women's restrooms before and I've seen many women use men's restrooms. All survived unscathed.
If it's a single toilet, like in a convenience store or a drug store or something like that, I've used one in an emergency. As long as it can be locked. Sometimes you simply can't wait for the geriatric or the daddy changing his kid's diapers, you know.
Only got a dirty look once coming out. Told her I put the seat down.
I thought you were cis, man. :(
The only kind and sensitive person I hold is my own when I use it as a traffic device.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 29, 2016, 11:44:54 AM
The only kind and sensitive person I hold is my own when I use it as a traffic device.
I think the word you are looking for might be cock.
Yeah owning cucks has been illegal for awhile in most of the world.
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2016, 08:06:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 07:54:05 AM
I suppose a lot of the anti-gay and anti-transgendered backlash comes from some gay and transgendered people simply being assholes. Like those faggots who insisted on making a national scandal because some bakery somewhere would not bake them a cake. I would not be surprised if the toilet outcry started with some trannies getting nasty looks in a women's toilet and making a fuss out of it.
Yeah but we know you are an idiot so who cares what would or would not surprise you? :huh:
Wow, what a witty retort. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 03:51:48 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2016, 08:06:19 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 29, 2016, 07:54:05 AM
I suppose a lot of the anti-gay and anti-transgendered backlash comes from some gay and transgendered people simply being assholes. Like those faggots who insisted on making a national scandal because some bakery somewhere would not bake them a cake. I would not be surprised if the toilet outcry started with some trannies getting nasty looks in a women's toilet and making a fuss out of it.
Yeah but we know you are an idiot so who cares what would or would not surprise you? :huh:
Wow, what a witty retort. :lol:
Why waste wit on a twit? :)
Wait a second. There was at least a small amount of wit in that post. Make up your mind.
Quote from: derspiess on April 29, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
Wait a second. There was at least a small amount of wit in that post. Make up your mind.
With garbon there's usually always a certain amount of wit even if he doesn't try; a minimum wit content, as it were. It usually exceeds the wit we get from Marty, even when he tries to be funny.
Quote from: Tyr on April 29, 2016, 07:46:11 AM
I dunno.
Women using mens happens way too much. Needs stopping. Makes it impossible to poo.
But a man using woman's. ...... not allowed.
I really don't think the average man cares at all if a woman comes in to use the restroom.
I suspect in Marty's neighborhood, trannies feel free to be as bitchy as they'd like. They're probably a little more circumspect in most of North Carolina. Or Poland outside Warsaw's glitzier districts.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2016, 04:33:45 PM
I really don't think the average man cares at all if a woman comes in to use the restroom.
I mind if a hottie comes in while I'm blowing the top off Krakatoa.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 29, 2016, 05:39:43 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on April 29, 2016, 04:33:45 PM
I really don't think the average man cares at all if a woman comes in to use the restroom.
I mind if a hottie comes in while I'm blowing the top off Krakatoa.
Nothing like dropping a deuce to impress the ladies. :lol:
Quote from: 11B4V on April 29, 2016, 08:20:27 PM
Nothing like dropping a deuce to impress the ladies. :lol:
If I concentrate long enough, I can shape it like a balloon animal.
Do chicks ever take real loud shits? I've never heard a girl shooting off fireworks. I'm wondering if their stomach work differently.
By the by, Marti, this is a story of something where I think well I guess good for them but really, not a very important sort of 'discrimination'.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-teenager-cant-get-a-bank-account-because-they-dont-iden?utm_term=.gcGxzGD4P#.esa0V5ZBP
QuoteThis Teenager Can't Get A Bank Account Because They Don't Identify As Male Or Female
The father of a 17-year-old student is campaigning to change Britain's banks because he cannot find one that will give his child, who identifies as genderqueer and non-binary, an account – because all the online application forms require customers to be either male or female.
Keith Farnish, 45, told BuzzFeed News that he and Kaelin, who live in a small village in the Scottish Borders, have gone to bank after bank in a quest to find just one that will allow them to join up without having to tick one of two gender boxes.
"When you're filling something in and you don't identify as male or female and you only see those two boxes then you don't see yourself there," said Farnish. "You are absent. That must hurt, and that's what makes me angry. There's no reason for it. It doesn't need to be like this."
Their attempts to open an account came during a wider mission to reconcile all official documents relating to Kaelin – who uses the pronouns "they", "their", and "them" – that exposed another barrier for anyone who doesn't identify as male or female: You cannot apply to university unless you tick one or the other.
But it was their battle with banks that prompted the Farnishes to speak out. Kaelin needed a new account because their existing one used the female name they were given at birth, which has since been changed by deed poll – and, said Kaelin, in order that that they could pay the deposit for their university accommodation in September. They first approached the Co-operative Bank – widely seen as a progressive alternative and the bank their dad has been with for years.
"The online form said male or female," said Farnish, "and had all the standard titles" – i.e. Mr, Mrs, Miss etc. Many non-binary and transgender people prefer the title Mx instead, as it doesn't denote a gender, but this was not an option, he said. Initially, Kaelin took action.
"I phoned them up," Kaelin told BuzzFeed News. "And the guy said, 'We'll get back in touch with you within two weeks, because someone else has complained about this as well. But I got nothing back from them." Then Kaelin's father intervened.
"I made a formal complaint," said Farnish. "I got a letter back from the Co-op and the essence of it was, 'We're going to have to spend money [changing this] so we're not going to.'"
Disappointed, they abandoned the Co-op, hoping to find success elsewhere. While Kaelin was at school, Farnish looked up First Direct online, found the same problem, and then phoned the bank, asking if it would allow Kaelin to register without registering as male or female.
"The person I spoke to was like, 'We could look into it.' And I said, 'Well, what's the position now?' [And they replied,] 'We can't do that at the moment, but if you want you could do something over the phone where you have to put male or female initially and then afterwards we can take it off. But you can't do it online.'"
Farnish said: "A lot of people will try to sign up and yes, they too could go into branches and perhaps do some kind of fudge and work it out somehow, but that's not how it should work. That is not equality."
And so Farnish set about looking for alternatives, hoping that with so much choice in personal banking there must be one that did not discriminate against non-binary people. He searched through seven more online bank account application forms.
"Barclays," he said. "HSBC. Santander. Halifax. TSB. And Lloyds. Every single one requires gender to be male or female. Why are they collecting this information at all? Why is gender important? There are other ways of identifying people."
Only the Royal Bank of Scotland, which was holding Kaelin's old account, would allow an application without gender. But, said Farnish, even then the bank does not allow for Mx as a title, and they will still have to go into the branch to change the name.
"It's another reminder," said Kaelin. "A reminder that you're different. But I don't think I'm particularly different to other people – I just don't fit male or female, I drift somewhere in the middle. So going on to the websites and seeing that, it's disheartening. Even people who haven't grasped the concept of non-binary or haven't met anyone who's non-binary will know that transgender people exist."
Not being able to find a bank account might not seem on its own like a crucial issue, said Kaelin's father, but is indicative of a world that demands a strict divide down gender lines, making life, in countless everyday ways, difficult for anyone who falls between those lines.
"It's not life and death," he said. "But, actually, embracing your identity and being comfortable in that identity? In many cases it is."
The timing was particularly unfortunate. Kaelin came out to their family and friends in March last year and after changing their name wanted to ensure that every official file had their new name and reflected their correct gender identity.
"It was a new start," said Kaelin. "Like, I'm going to leave the old me behind and everything's going to be fine. But then it just hit a brick wall at the first hurdle."
There have been other walls for Kaelin. In particular, when applying to university through UCAS (the University and Colleges Admissions Service), which runs the application system for higher education.
"You have to pick male or female," said Kaelin about what happens when you sign up. "I complained to my school, who got in touch with them, and I've emailed a couple of times." But, they said, it didn't work.
"Kaelin ended up ticking the male box, because if you want to go to university you have to say you're male or female," said Farnish, who stepped in again, contacting UCAS in a bid to help his child. But this time he came armed with something else.
"I ripped the code off [the UCAS website], I rewrote it – it took me a minute to do another box. I then tweeted it back to them and said, 'This is what it can look like.' No response." Farnish said he also discussed the situation with UCAS, but, "They basically said, 'We're not going to do it, because it's too difficult.'" The UCAS online application does now allow for Mx as a title, but still asks applicants to check the male or female box.
For Farnish, attempting to overcome these obstacles for the sake of Kaelin is his duty as a father.
"I'm a parent that cares," he said. "As far as I'm concerned whatever my child does, I will support them, and something as fundamental as their identity – it's who they are – how can I deny that? How can I not want to defend that to the hilt? I would like Kaelin to be seen as a person and not be judged for who they are." There are wider implications, too, he said.
"People are people. It shouldn't matter who you're attracted to, it shouldn't matter what the contents of your pants are, none of this should make any difference. Gender is more than just what's between your legs. We have to take the whole person into account."
Farnish admitted that for him and Kaelin's mother, there was an adjustment process when their child came out last year – learning, for example, to use "they" rather than "she".
"It takes a while to get your head round, but actually none of this is a big deal, or should be a big deal," he said. "It's a steep learning curve for parents to see your child, someone you've always known, as a particular identity and to see that – as far as you're concerned – changed. But as far as the trans person is concerned, they're simply being who they always were."
Kaelin, to whom BuzzFeed News spoke separately, echoed this.
"It took a couple of months for them to come to terms with everything," said Kaelin. "It was like a whole new thing they hadn't experienced before, so it was a bit of a shock – but I came out originally as bisexual when I was 12 or 13, so they've known I was a bit queer for quite a while! And they've been wonderful. It's a shame some people don't receive the same amount of support."
Kaelin remains optimistic, however, as despite their experiences with banks and UCAS, some organisations have responded well to requests to change personal details.
"I've managed to change my name at my GP. They still use my biological sex – that's understandable from a medical point of view – but my title has been changed from Miss to Mx. And I've talked to my GP about my gender and she's like, 'Yeah, cool.' That was good."
Kaelin has also found people at school to be "generally supportive", although "most people don't use the correct pronouns for me. But hey, we're getting there."
And as Kaelin grapples with the reactions of other people and the responses of institutions, they are keen to point out the positives elsewhere to being out as non-binary.
"I'll meet someone and talk to them and notice I've completely messed with what they thought the whole of society was based on," said Kaelin. "I had a 10-year-old come up and say, 'Are you a boy or a girl?' And I said, 'I'm neither.' And his jaw dropped to the floor and was like, 'What? You can be that?' Also I've had people come up and say they don't feel comfortable identifying as something, or they're wanting to change pronouns, and being able to give that support is cool. It's not all sadness and confusion."
Kaelin's dad will continue fighting on their behalf until the world accepts his child as he does. Farnish said he wants "a complete sea change" in the way banks and other organisations operate. "I would hate to be in their situation," he said. "Maybe in a few years' time it will be a lot easier. I would like Kaelin to be just be seen as a person and not be judged for who they are." He stopped for a moment to consider what judging others means, and when it is justified.
"There is no cause for judgment unless you've committed a crime."
A spokesperson for the Co-operative Bank told BuzzFeed News: "Regrettably, due to system restrictions we aren't yet able use MX titles when opening customer accounts but we can amend their title on debit cards and other correspondence on request once the account is set up."
Ben Jordan, senior policy executive at UCAS, said: "We already offer the gender neutral 'Mx' as a Title option and this is just the starting point for us. UCAS is currently re-developing its Apply service, and as part of this, we will be adding further options for answering the 'Gender' selection question, beyond 'male' and 'female'."
First Direct told BuzzFeed News: "We work hard to promote gender diversity right across the bank, and are currently working on plans to include other gender options in our application processes in the near future."
:bleeding:
My point was that I think it is ridiculous. But of course, you appear to have a inability to parse words. :(
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 04:17:27 AM
By the by, Marti, this is a story of something where I think well I guess good for them but really, not a very important sort of 'discrimination'.
No, this is actually a story of an attention whoring mentally ill bitch.
Not every situation when someone refuses to cave in to your delusion is discrimination. Gays being thrown off the roof in the Middle East is discrimination.
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2016, 05:08:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 04:17:27 AM
By the by, Marti, this is a story of something where I think well I guess good for them but really, not a very important sort of 'discrimination'.
No, this is actually a story of an attention whoring mentally ill bitch.
Not every situation when someone refuses to cave in to your delusion is discrimination. Gays being thrown off the roof in the Middle East is discrimination.
Takes one to know one?
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2016, 05:08:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 04:17:27 AM
By the by, Marti, this is a story of something where I think well I guess good for them but really, not a very important sort of 'discrimination'.
No, this is actually a story of an attention whoring mentally ill bitch.
Not every situation when someone refuses to cave in to your delusion is discrimination. Gays being thrown off the roof in the Middle East is discrimination.
Okay so what was the point of deleting your original post if you were just going to post it again with a different order? :huh:
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 05:11:25 AM
Okay so what was the point of deleting your original post if you were just going to post it again with a different order? :huh:
And here I was about to come to Tamas' defense that his bleeding eyes smilie didn't indicate the inability to parse words. :sleep:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 30, 2016, 05:27:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 05:11:25 AM
Okay so what was the point of deleting your original post if you were just going to post it again with a different order? :huh:
And here I was about to come to Tamas' defense that his bleeding eyes smilie didn't indicate the inability to parse words. :sleep:
Yeah perhaps that was his point. <_<
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 05:11:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2016, 05:08:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 04:17:27 AM
By the by, Marti, this is a story of something where I think well I guess good for them but really, not a very important sort of 'discrimination'.
No, this is actually a story of an attention whoring mentally ill bitch.
Not every situation when someone refuses to cave in to your delusion is discrimination. Gays being thrown off the roof in the Middle East is discrimination.
Okay so what was the point of deleting your original post if you were just going to post it again with a different order? :huh:
The first post was different because I at first misread your comment as you posting the story as an example of the kind of discrimination trannies are facing. Then I realised my error and deleted it and posted a slightly different post attacking the story more than you.
Edit: I only now noticed your post after Tamas's bleeding eyes. In your original post you say it's "good for them" which made me think you consider the story perhaps not as important, but nonetheless a good development - not that you consider it ridiculous.
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2016, 06:29:33 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 05:11:25 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 30, 2016, 05:08:39 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 30, 2016, 04:17:27 AM
By the by, Marti, this is a story of something where I think well I guess good for them but really, not a very important sort of 'discrimination'.
No, this is actually a story of an attention whoring mentally ill bitch.
Not every situation when someone refuses to cave in to your delusion is discrimination. Gays being thrown off the roof in the Middle East is discrimination.
Okay so what was the point of deleting your original post if you were just going to post it again with a different order? :huh:
The first post was different because I at first misread your comment as you posting the story as an example of the kind of discrimination trannies are facing. Then I realised my error and deleted it and posted a slightly different post attacking the story more than you.
Edit: I only now noticed your post after Tamas's bleeding eyes. In your original post you say it's "good for them" which made me think you consider the story perhaps not as important, but nonetheless a good development - not that you consider it ridiculous.
Understood. It was my attempt at an olive branch. I even highlighted the most ridiculous bits. -_-
As far as good for them, well this sort of thing, as long as they don't spiral out into considering people demonic for not supporting them, isn't much skin off my back. Though I really wish they were pushing instead to just remove the boxes. Little benefit for myself for my bank knowing my gender.
If your bank does not know your gender how else they are going to know whether to issue you a pink Hillary woman's credit card? :P
I wonder whether these special pronouns or titles for those gender variants other than male and female exist in the German language. I've only ever seen them online for English. Maybe we are just a few years behind or I am just not reading the right texts.
Quote from: Zanza on April 30, 2016, 06:57:48 AM
I wonder whether these special pronouns or titles for those gender variants other than male and female exist in the German language. I've only ever seen them online for English. Maybe we are just a few years behind or I am just not reading the right texts.
Here you go! :D
http://genderfork.com/2014/question-german-gender-neutral-language/
http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Pronouns#German_neutral_pronouns
Ack fallen down the rabbit hole with that 2nd link...
http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Pronouns#Nounself_pronouns
:o
I see. Never heard any of these before. But then I have never knowingly met a genderqueer or nonbinary person.
I do occasionally use both the female and male forms (i.e. "dear colleagues" would be "Liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen") words as that is now accepted common courtesy, even when German grammar would not necessitate that as the male form is always both male and mixed groups.