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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 12:10:00 PM

Title: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 12:10:00 PM
Post your favorite French Revolution black people here:

(https://criticxxtreme.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/22_general-thomas-alexandre-dumas-kicking-ass.jpg)

Yes did you know the patriotic and brave General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas once beat the entire Austrian Army all by himself? True story.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fabolition.nypl.org%2Fcontent%2Fimages%2F47f0f43318378%2F05_006_large.jpg&hash=407632fc6414d2702075a77fcd722531ab39dea9)

Enemies to the revolution shall quake when denounced by Jean-Baptiste Belley in la Convention nationale.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.granger.com%2Fwmpix%2Fage%2Frue%2F0079569-JACQUES-VINCENT-OGE-1750-1791-Early-leader-of-the-slave-rebellion-in-Saint-Domingue-Haiti-Note-the-flag-features-a-liberty-cap-Engraving-early-19th-century.jpg&hash=7155a3addbbf98a3358cac63f4cd572363e2356e)

And could injustice and oppression stand before the righteous fury of the great Vincent Ogé? The answer is: yes. Yes it could. RIP.

And Julien Raimond, who I cannot find a picture of, was a tireless campaigner for liberty and equality...which allows us to forgive his slave owning ways.

Of course you could discuss black people from other places and other eras...but why?
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Martinus on February 01, 2016, 12:19:40 PM
I love his pose and facial expression in that portrait. :D
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: celedhring on February 01, 2016, 02:33:27 PM
The French shall shiver in fear at the sight of Jorge Biassou, leader of the victorious Haitian revolt and General of the Spanish Army during the war of the First Coalition.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faugustine.com%2Fhistory%2Fblack_history%2Fjorge_biassou%2Fimages%2Fbiassou_barbot_300.jpg&hash=31ee1116eab1fbebb0adaa32a8ac601acdac6749)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faugustine.com%2Fhistory%2Fblack_history%2Fjorge_biassou%2Fimages%2Ftoussaint_barbot.jpg&hash=c15776204f9a52b7210e40875bb4c4b44aca4c74)
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 02:44:24 PM
The man was a Bourbon stooge :angry:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 01, 2016, 02:47:22 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/G%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral_Toussaint_Louverture.jpg)

Toussaint L'Ouverture, ruler of Haiti until his defeat by Bonapartists.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 02:51:32 PM
A truly great man. Who knew the winningrighteous path -_-

Bonaparte fucked up, but he knew jack shit about international trade and colonial matters. His policies in those areas were always spectacularly bad.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: celedhring on February 01, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
My man Jorge and Toussaint were pals until they split and ended in opposing sides in the colonial front of the First Coalition war.

Then Spain switched sides, and sent my dude to Florida to bore himself marching a small negro detachment in Saint Augustine.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: celedhring on February 01, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
My man Jorge and Toussaint were pals until they split and ended in opposing sides in the colonial front of the First Coalition war.

Then Spain switched sides, and sent my dude to Florida to bore himself marching a small negro detachment in Saint Augustine.

Toussaint was smart and was following the news from Europe. When the French started winning he swapped. Also the full abolition of slavery as one of the last moves done by the Jacobin led Republic probably didn't hurt.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: grumbler on February 02, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 02:51:32 PM
A truly great man. Who knew the winningrighteous path -_-

Bonaparte fucked up, but he knew jack shit about international trade and colonial matters. His policies in those areas were always spectacularly bad.

To be fair, every European ruler's policies regarding international trade and colonial matters in this era were always spectacularly bad. 
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: celedhring on February 02, 2016, 09:35:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: celedhring on February 01, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
My man Jorge and Toussaint were pals until they split and ended in opposing sides in the colonial front of the First Coalition war.

Then Spain switched sides, and sent my dude to Florida to bore himself marching a small negro detachment in Saint Augustine.

Toussaint was smart and was following the news from Europe. When the French started winning he swapped. Also the full abolition of slavery as one of the last moves done by the Jacobin led Republic probably didn't hurt.

Yet he ended up hanged by them  :P
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Malthus on February 02, 2016, 09:43:28 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 02, 2016, 09:35:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: celedhring on February 01, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
My man Jorge and Toussaint were pals until they split and ended in opposing sides in the colonial front of the First Coalition war.

Then Spain switched sides, and sent my dude to Florida to bore himself marching a small negro detachment in Saint Augustine.

Toussaint was smart and was following the news from Europe. When the French started winning he swapped. Also the full abolition of slavery as one of the last moves done by the Jacobin led Republic probably didn't hurt.

Yet he ended up hanged by them  :P

Well, imprisoned (to die miserably in jail), anyway. Not that this is an improvement.  ;)
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 02, 2016, 09:53:46 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 02, 2016, 09:35:49 AM

Yet he ended up hanged by them  :P

He had a good run.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 02, 2016, 09:54:45 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 02, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2016, 02:51:32 PM
A truly great man. Who knew the winningrighteous path -_-

Bonaparte fucked up, but he knew jack shit about international trade and colonial matters. His policies in those areas were always spectacularly bad.

To be fair, every European ruler's policies regarding international trade and colonial matters in this era were always spectacularly bad. 

But when all of your other initiatives are such impressive successes (at least in the era we are talking about) your miserable failures stand out more.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Ed Anger on February 02, 2016, 08:14:16 PM
I'll eat some fried chicken and watermelon.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: 11B4V on February 02, 2016, 08:29:32 PM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=u__W0Qa8v0k
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 02, 2016, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 02, 2016, 08:14:16 PM
I'll eat some fried chicken and watermelon.

I find this very offensive.

Neither Haiti nor France grew significant amounts of Watermelon during the Revolution :angry:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 02, 2016, 11:19:48 PM
Watermelon is healthier than eating pure sugar cane.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 02, 2016, 11:20:35 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 02, 2016, 11:19:48 PM
Watermelon is healthier than eating pure sugar cane.

But less profitable -_-
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Oexmelin on February 04, 2016, 02:27:57 AM
Valmy, I am curious: what have been your sources on the history of Haiti?
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Lettow77 on February 04, 2016, 03:43:22 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fragemag.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2Fbokaz.jpg&hash=1e4d10d35530c80beb0e361baec8aeb6e6da1ee9)

So brave  :cry:

In a just world, he would have lingered but a short time longer with the French Military and suppressed the Algerian insurrection with Le Pen.

As it is, there is every reason to hope and believe his half-Vietnamese daughter will restore the House of her father over the good people of Central Africa and regenerate that troubled land.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Duque de Bragança on February 04, 2016, 05:01:38 AM
We needed a Bokassa reference on Languish!  :lmfao:
Thanks Lettow!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 05, 2016, 04:26:22 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 04, 2016, 02:27:57 AM
Valmy, I am curious: what have been your sources on the history of Haiti?

I have read two books in my life about Haitian Revolution:

1. This children's book I had as a kid: (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51rAh866h3L._SX375_BO1%2C204%2C203%2C200_.jpg&hash=6730cc5a1d13f67f64947d90b20edf0787f3113c)

2. The Black Jacobins

I have, of course, seen it covered numerous times in books about the French Revolution and Napoleon though.

Mike Duncan is covering it presently in his podcast: http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/

Do you have any recommendations?
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: 11B4V on February 05, 2016, 08:23:46 PM
BHM,  :punk: time to celebrate at taco bell.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 07, 2016, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 05, 2016, 08:23:46 PM
BHM,  :punk: time to celebrate at taco bell.

What does BHM have to do with tacky border food fast food joints? :hmm:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 07, 2016, 06:02:36 PM
Maybe it's attached to a KFC.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Oexmelin on February 07, 2016, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 05, 2016, 04:26:22 PM
I have read two books in my life about Haitian Revolution

I think it is awesome, on both counts. I did not know about the illustrated book. I will also check the podcast.

I was curious, because want to know what filtered out in the general public in the US about the Haitian Revolution. I teach a class on the French and Haitian Revolutions and was debating separating them into two different courses, and was wondering about the draw of the HR for students.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: LaCroix on February 08, 2016, 12:45:55 AM
only people I can see being especially interested by haitian revolution are black students, for the most part. if there's a sizable black community on your campus, go for it. but otherwise, I don't think students would care much about HR to take a course on it. I'd keep it together, maybe have a section on it with direct comparisons to FR. also, a class or two on why the american revolution succeeded versus the FR would be worthwhile (americans kept the structure of their society; was more an external revolution than internal, while the FR was more internal, which led to impact on foreign relations).
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 01:03:39 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 08, 2016, 12:45:55 AM(americans kept the structure of their society; was more an external revolution than internal, while the FR was more internal, which led to impact on foreign relations).

its a good thing a came across this, otherwise, I would never have known what is the right thing to say in the classes I teach at the college level.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: LaCroix on February 08, 2016, 01:33:51 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 01:03:39 AMits a good thing a came across this, otherwise, I would never have known what is the right thing to say in the classes I teach at the college level.

with the quality of some college level courses, you can never be too sure  :P

plus for anyone else reading the thread. for me, that was one of the more interesting things I learned from an undergrad history course
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 08, 2016, 01:44:07 AM
Those who can't legally operate guillotines, teach courses on the French Revolution.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Jaron on February 08, 2016, 03:39:16 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 08, 2016, 01:44:07 AM
Those who can't legally operate guillotines, teach courses on the French Revolution.

Au Revoir, Felicia
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: grumbler on February 08, 2016, 07:46:19 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 07, 2016, 09:17:35 PM
I think it is awesome, on both counts. I did not know about the illustrated book. I will also check the podcast.

I was curious, because want to know what filtered out in the general public in the US about the Haitian Revolution. I teach a class on the French and Haitian Revolutions and was debating separating them into two different courses, and was wondering about the draw of the HR for students.

I think Americans would be fascinated by the Haitian revolution if they knew anything about  it, which they generally don't.  I think any course you would offer on just Haiti would have to follow from a more general course, else you'd have no takers.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:15:13 PM
On topic to the thread title (:P), I thought it was interesting how Beyonce embraced a more 'political' black stance with her new video/song.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/beyonce-formation-video_us_56b67a09e4b08069c7a789e6

QuoteBeyoncé Is Back And Unapologetically Black In New Music Video

It's official: Beyoncé is back, she's "got hot sauce in her bag" and she's as unapologetically black as ever.

Queen B surprised us all on Saturday by dropping "Formation," a new song and accompanying music video -- and, needless to say, both are incredible.

The song, which runs nearly five minutes and was released the night before the singer's scheduled Super Bowl performance, is fierce, funky and freaking phenomenal. But what separates the video from most of her other mainstream work is its messages relating to race, identity and black culture.

The video is filled with some pretty powerful imagery, including a sinking New Orleans police car, a young kid in a black hoodie dancing in front of a lineup of cops, and a wall painted with the words "Stop Shooting Us." Oh, and there's a glorious cameo from Beyoncé's daughter, Blue Ivy, who's rocking her natural hair.

Basically, the video is a representation of the best of #BlackGirlMagic, #BlackLivesMatter and #BlackPride.

The video quickly drew praise from singer Solange, Beyoncé's younger sister who has never been one to stay quiet about important issues of race

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Caj57OsUcAALdOL.jpg)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.huffingtonpost.com%2Fasset%2Fscalefit_630_noupscale%2F56b684d41a00002d00ab222e.png&hash=3d7d0e4cd706543b0c2afd960f98669567ece51b)

Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Liep on February 08, 2016, 03:20:14 PM
How are you apologetically black?
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: Liep on February 08, 2016, 03:20:14 PM
How are you apologetically black?

Yeah let's not have this discussion in this thread.

QuoteOn topic to the thread title

This is not history it just happened :angry: :P

QuoteI thought it was interesting how Beyonce embraced a more 'political' black stance with her new video/song.

I think it is a natural thing as you get older and want to make more of a difference in the world.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Liep on February 08, 2016, 03:31:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: Liep on February 08, 2016, 03:20:14 PM
How are you apologetically black?

Yeah let's not have this discussion in this thread.

Probably best to stay well away from that in general come to think of it. :P
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: Liep on February 08, 2016, 03:20:14 PM
How are you apologetically black?

Just saw this in a book when I searched it:

QuoteBlack people are not allowed it seems, under any circumstances, to ever have a human reaction to police error or harassment.  Even in Post-racial America....You are not allowed to get mad. You are not allowed to vice your opinion...You are supposed to be apologetically black. Sorry for being an obvious target of racism. How are you be born this color and attract this negative attention? I'm so very sorry for being born black in America. How can I make this up to you, Mr. Officer?
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:39:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:26:10 PM
This is not history it just happened :angry: :P

It draw on historical imagery. :P

Quote from: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:26:10 PM
I think it is a natural thing as you get older and want to make more of a difference in the world.

Maybe though I don't know if most people become more radical as they age. That said, makes sense that now where she is established in her career she can make more pointed political-social statements.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:43:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:37:53 PM
QuoteBlack people are not allowed it seems, under any circumstances, to ever have a human reaction to police error or harassment.  Even in Post-racial America....You are not allowed to get mad. You are not allowed to vice your opinion...You are supposed to be apologetically black. Sorry for being an obvious target of racism. How are you be born this color and attract this negative attention? I'm so very sorry for being born black in America. How can I make this up to you, Mr. Officer?

Not allowed? They seem to be pretty loudly outraged about it. Generally a lot of people seem think justifiably so. So by whom? People who do not like black people anyway? Do they speak for everybody? And are the opinions of racists supposed to be given enormous weight and consideration?

I mean we may quibble about tactics or actions by this group or that individual but that is different.

But it does reference 'officer' so perhaps this is related to a specific incident involving a protest and some police.

Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:45:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:39:11 PM
Maybe though I don't know if most people become more radical as they age. That said, makes sense that now where she is established in her career she can make more pointed political-social statements.

I don't know if that is such a radical statement. It seem pretty topical. But granted maybe I should watch the video, maybe it does have some radical statements I do see her flipping me off there. :P

Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: The Brain on February 08, 2016, 04:12:04 PM
Why would you vice your opinion?
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 08, 2016, 05:31:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:45:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:39:11 PM
Maybe though I don't know if most people become more radical as they age. That said, makes sense that now where she is established in her career she can make more pointed political-social statements.

I don't know if that is such a radical statement. It seem pretty topical. But granted maybe I should watch the video, maybe it does have some radical statements I do see her flipping me off there. :P

It isn't radical in the context of things people are saying at large, but in the context of Beyonce who has mostly spent her musical time waxing lyrically about trying to get on a man or break up with a man, it is quite a shift. After all it is a message that has a power to alienate some.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 08, 2016, 05:32:36 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 03:43:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:37:53 PM
QuoteBlack people are not allowed it seems, under any circumstances, to ever have a human reaction to police error or harassment.  Even in Post-racial America....You are not allowed to get mad. You are not allowed to vice your opinion...You are supposed to be apologetically black. Sorry for being an obvious target of racism. How are you be born this color and attract this negative attention? I'm so very sorry for being born black in America. How can I make this up to you, Mr. Officer?

Not allowed? They seem to be pretty loudly outraged about it. Generally a lot of people seem think justifiably so. So by whom? People who do not like black people anyway? Do they speak for everybody? And are the opinions of racists supposed to be given enormous weight and consideration?

I mean we may quibble about tactics or actions by this group or that individual but that is different.

But it does reference 'officer' so perhaps this is related to a specific incident involving a protest and some police.



I think you can include as part of this as covering the people who say that black people should be speaking calmly and rationally about the issues they have been facing for years and years as if being wellspoken ever got people to give a damn.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Barrister on February 08, 2016, 05:38:23 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: Liep on February 08, 2016, 03:20:14 PM
How are you apologetically black?

Just saw this in a book when I searched it:

QuoteBlack people are not allowed it seems, under any circumstances, to ever have a human reaction to police error or harassment.  Even in Post-racial America....You are not allowed to get mad. You are not allowed to vice your opinion...You are supposed to be apologetically black. Sorry for being an obvious target of racism. How are you be born this color and attract this negative attention? I'm so very sorry for being born black in America. How can I make this up to you, Mr. Officer?

Except I think that's wonderful advice for people of any colour in dealing with misbehaving authority figures.  Don't argue with the man holding a gun.  There are ways to seek your redress later on.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 05:31:22 PM
It isn't radical in the context of things people are saying at large, but in the context of Beyonce who has mostly spent her musical time waxing lyrically about trying to get on a man or break up with a man, it is quite a shift. After all it is a message that has a power to alienate some.

I read an article way back about some marginal figure named Martin Luther King Jr. who somewhat qualifies your otherwise excellent observation.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 08, 2016, 05:38:23 PM
Except I think that's wonderful advice for people of any colour in dealing with misbehaving authority figures.  Don't argue with the man holding a gun.  There are ways to seek your redress later on.

Except that arguing with an officer - which is something I would suggest can happen, out of the sheer sense of injustice, when you know you are innocent of any wrongdoing -  when you are white can send you to jail. Arguing with an officer when you are black can send you to the morgue.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 08, 2016, 05:55:29 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 05:31:22 PM
It isn't radical in the context of things people are saying at large, but in the context of Beyonce who has mostly spent her musical time waxing lyrically about trying to get on a man or break up with a man, it is quite a shift. After all it is a message that has a power to alienate some.

I read an article way back about some marginal figure named Martin Luther King Jr. who somewhat qualifies your otherwise excellent observation.

You are absolutely right. Eloquent speech can get you some places but it doesn't always and it doesn't always get you were you need to be. America's most recent spate of paying attention to the plight of black people didn't stem from such.

I would also suggest that the Civil Rights era saw a lot of what was considered impolite and disruptive behavior. The mountains didn't move solely because of some speeches.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:58:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 05:49:34 PM
I read an article way back about some marginal figure named Martin Luther King Jr. who somewhat qualifies your otherwise excellent observation.

Only because King was not operating in a vaccum. There were other figures who made King a more palatable interlocutory.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 05:55:29 PM
You are absolutely right. Eloquent speech can get you some places but it doesn't always and it doesn't always get you were you need to be. America's most recent spate of paying attention to the plight of black people didn't stem from such.

America's most recent spate of paying attention to the plight of black people stems from the invention of the camera phone, not from bangers burning down nail salons in Ferguson and looting CVS's in Baltimore.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 08, 2016, 06:01:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 08, 2016, 05:55:29 PM
You are absolutely right. Eloquent speech can get you some places but it doesn't always and it doesn't always get you were you need to be. America's most recent spate of paying attention to the plight of black people didn't stem from such.

America's most recent spate of paying attention to the plight of black people stems from the invention of the camera phone, not from bangers burning down nail salons in Ferguson and looting CVS's in Baltimore.

If you think that is what I was talking about, you clearly don't know much about me. I was not advocating a Malcolm X-type approach. :huh:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 08:19:42 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:58:13 PM
Only because King was not operating in a vaccum. There were other figures who made King a more palatable interlocutory.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make.  The way i see it MLK wasn't negotiating with negotiating with the power structure in Washington (if he was, what was he offering in return?).  Rather, he was presenting the reality of injustice in the South to the American people, to move public opinion.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Razgovory on February 08, 2016, 08:24:26 PM
We have tapes of him working with LBJ, so he was doing some negotiating.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 09:49:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 08:19:42 PM
I'm not sure the point you're trying to make.  The way i see it MLK wasn't negotiating with negotiating with the power structure in Washington (if he was, what was he offering in return?). 

:huh: Of course he was. A very clear example is the march on Washington. What he was offering was whatever influence he had, over a movement capable of mobilizing thousands.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 08, 2016, 10:04:14 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 08, 2016, 05:38:23 PM
Except I think that's wonderful advice for people of any colour in dealing with misbehaving authority figures.  Don't argue with the man holding a gun.  There are ways to seek your redress later on.

Except that arguing with an officer - which is something I would suggest can happen, out of the sheer sense of injustice, when you know you are innocent of any wrongdoing -  when you are white can send you to jail. Arguing with an officer when you are black can send you to the morgue.

Well it can send you to the Morgue when you are white or latino or whatever as well. Just at a lower rate. Also in a country where having a conviction can have you rejected a job, housing, voting rights, and so forth being sent to jail is all but a death sentence in my book. Now granted just putting you in jail for a bit is not a conviction but let us just say it would reflect badly on me.

The cops have a horrifyingly large amount of power to fuck you up if they want to. Anybody who does anything but bow your head and say 'yes officer' is a braver person than me.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 08, 2016, 11:13:23 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 07, 2016, 09:17:35 PM
I was curious, because want to know what filtered out in the general public in the US about the Haitian Revolution.  I teach a class on the French and Haitian Revolutions and was debating separating them into two different courses, and was wondering about the draw of the HR for students.

It's a shame the HR gets short shrift now in anything other than dedicated Haitian or Latin American Studies, considering how its palpable presence in the antebellum era was the single greatest conceptual nightmare of the plantation culture of the South.


I say separate them, and roll the Haitian Revolution in with the other great Maroon insurrection and independence movements of Jamaica and Surinam, and even the Seminole Wars, their influence on Vesey, Turner, Prosser and John Brown, etc. 

Slave revolts?  Unconventional warfare?  Men of color achieving autonomy, if not outright independence, through force of arms?  That's a semester's worth of scaring the living shit out of creepy ass crackers right there. 
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 08, 2016, 11:18:00 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 08, 2016, 11:13:23 PM
That's a semester's worth of scaring the living shit out of creepy ass crackers right there.

Why are they taking the course?
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 08, 2016, 11:22:06 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 08, 2016, 11:18:00 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 08, 2016, 11:13:23 PM
That's a semester's worth of scaring the living shit out of creepy ass crackers right there.

Why are they taking the course?

Gen Ed requirement.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 12:03:36 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:58:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 08, 2016, 05:49:34 PM
I read an article way back about some marginal figure named Martin Luther King Jr. who somewhat qualifies your otherwise excellent observation.

Only because King was not operating in a vaccum. There were other figures who made King a more palatable interlocutory.

So palatable he was assassinated.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: derspiess on February 09, 2016, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 08, 2016, 11:13:23 PM
Slave revolts?  Unconventional warfare?  Men of color achieving autonomy, if not outright independence, through force of arms?  That's a semester's worth of scaring the living shit out of creepy ass crackers right there. 

You're weird.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: LaCroix on February 09, 2016, 12:53:44 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:51:50 PMExcept that arguing with an officer - which is something I would suggest can happen, out of the sheer sense of injustice, when you know you are innocent of any wrongdoing -  when you are white can send you to jail. Arguing with an officer when you are black can send you to the morgue.

doubt it has much to do with black and white, more poor and not-poor. you get a black guy who talks/acts/dresses white (not-poor), and the chances he's killed lower drastically. get a white guy who talks/acts/dresses black (poor), and the chances he's killed... etc.

at least usually
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Oexmelin on February 09, 2016, 01:51:09 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 08, 2016, 11:13:23 PM

I say separate them, and roll the Haitian Revolution in with the other great Maroon insurrection and independence movements of Jamaica and Surinam, and even the Seminole Wars, their influence on Vesey, Turner, Prosser and John Brown, etc. 

Slave revolts?  Unconventional warfare?  Men of color achieving autonomy, if not outright independence, through force of arms?  That's a semester's worth of scaring the living shit out of creepy ass crackers right there.

It is not a bad idea, though would have to discuss with the colleague teaching Jamaican history. And though I understand, of course, the pedagogical value of the American comparison (and the  influence of the HR cannot be overstated) some part of me wants to tell students that not every global event in history has to be about the bloody USA.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: LaCroix on February 09, 2016, 02:31:13 AM
if you call it "atlantic history," you can maybe trick people into thinking it's mostly about USA
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 09, 2016, 02:41:09 AM
People who feel like they've been "tricked" into taking a class aren't likely to get much out of it.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: LaCroix on February 09, 2016, 02:45:21 AM
doesn't matter. professor has high enrollment numbers = win for department; chair is pleased -> professor is happy
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Admiral Yi on February 09, 2016, 03:26:46 AM
He'll have to do some fast talking until add/drop is over.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: LaCroix on February 09, 2016, 03:29:34 AM
take home final or promises to provide students the exam questions pre-test ("I'll just pick 10 of the 50 questions")

the latter was some of the only times I ever read the assigned readings back in college. such a brilliant teaching method
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 09, 2016, 03:43:29 AM
Quote from: LaCroix on February 09, 2016, 03:29:34 AM
take home final or promises to provide students the exam questions pre-test ("I'll just pick 10 of the 50 questions")

the latter was some of the only times I ever read the assigned readings back in college. such a brilliant teaching method

No, the latter is not a brilliant method at all. I had a class like that where it just meant before the final that we had different members of the class meet to come up with the answer to the essay questions and then we all meant to talk through them all. So one week of 'learning' that I immediately let out of my head after the exam.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: grumbler on February 09, 2016, 07:38:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 09, 2016, 03:43:29 AM
No, the latter is not a brilliant method at all. I had a class like that where it just meant before the final that we had different members of the class meet to come up with the answer to the essay questions and then we all meant to talk through them all. So one week of 'learning' that I immediately let out of my head after the exam.

If a student is determined to forget everything he or she learns in a class after the exam, no exam can change that.

I always provide the possible essay prompts before the exam, and even let the students bring notes.  If they can answer all of the essay questions before the exam starts, the exam has already served its purpose, and the students have gotten everything they can get from the course.  Nothing can stop willful ignorance.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 09, 2016, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 09, 2016, 07:38:13 AM
Nothing can stop willful ignorance.

Which is why I don't think it really conveys the benefit that LaCroix mentioned 'the latter was some of the only times I ever read the assigned readings back in college. such a brilliant teaching method.' That's really just how he reacted to that method but intrinsically I can't see why it would make you more likely to read the assigned readings.

Note, I should be clear that I don't have anything in particular against the method (though I suppose I do question what benefit filling out the essay at the test itself would have if I've already filled out all the essays in advanced by myself) but it is the supposed brilliance of it that I take issue with.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Lettow77 on February 09, 2016, 08:25:55 AM
 It wouldn't be February without a solemn look back at a man who fought against European hegemony when the world was young and the sins of the colonizers were yet undone. He struggled for the brotherhood of man, and saw his brother's head pitched before him. He saw with great vision the course of the oppressive imperialists, and it cost him an eye.

It may be that no man before or since has brought such fear to the hearts of white oppressors. No eulogy could be enough for this proud African warrior, but his memory lives on.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmdmspS8.jpg&hash=e467b09fedf3085b2618a323169de9e06e4abcf6)
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: grumbler on February 09, 2016, 08:38:24 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on February 09, 2016, 08:25:55 AM
It wouldn't be February without a solemn look back at a man who fought against European hegemony when the world was young and the sins of the colonizers were yet undone. He struggled for the brotherhood of man, and saw his brother's head pitched before him. He saw with great vision the course of the oppressive imperialists, and it cost him an eye.

It may be that no man before or since has brought such fear to the hearts of white oppressors. No eulogy could be enough for this proud African warrior, but his memory lives on.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmdmspS8.jpg&hash=e467b09fedf3085b2618a323169de9e06e4abcf6)

Nat Turner never wore a hat like that!
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Octavian on February 09, 2016, 09:16:18 AM
Quote from: Jaron on February 08, 2016, 03:39:16 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 08, 2016, 01:44:07 AM
Those who can't legally operate guillotines, teach courses on the French Revolution.

Au Revoir, Felicia

Straight out of Utah... On a friday
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:46:09 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 09, 2016, 01:51:09 AM
some part of me wants to tell students that not every global event in history has to be about the bloody USA.
You should have tought of that before signing on to teach in an American College :P
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 08, 2016, 05:38:23 PM
Except I think that's wonderful advice for people of any colour in dealing with misbehaving authority figures.  Don't argue with the man holding a gun.  There are ways to seek your redress later on.

Except that arguing with an officer - which is something I would suggest can happen, out of the sheer sense of injustice, when you know you are innocent of any wrongdoing -  when you are white can send you to jail. Arguing with an officer when you are black can send you to the morgue.
do we have stats on that?  'Cause I think lots of white people end up dead in that same situation too, in the US.
Maybe white people are less likely to protest arrest because they feel it's racism, though.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 10:53:30 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:25 AM
Maybe white people are less likely to protest arrest because they feel it's racism, though.

It is complicated. But we do do crazy shit like create anti-government militias.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:54:40 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 09, 2016, 07:38:13 AM
I always provide the possible essay prompts before the exam, and even let the students bring notes.  If they can answer all of the essay questions before the exam starts, the exam has already served its purpose, and the students have gotten everything they can get from the course.  Nothing can stop willful ignorance.
it used to be that we could bring our notes for finance and stats exams, or at the very least, one sheet of notes/formulas, but my university later changed the policy to no notes at all, not even a formula sheet.  That puts the emphasis on learning like a drone, imho, rather than understanding what you do.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 10:59:49 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:54:40 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 09, 2016, 07:38:13 AM
I always provide the possible essay prompts before the exam, and even let the students bring notes.  If they can answer all of the essay questions before the exam starts, the exam has already served its purpose, and the students have gotten everything they can get from the course.  Nothing can stop willful ignorance.
it used to be that we could bring our notes for finance and stats exams, or at the very least, one sheet of notes/formulas, but my university later changed the policy to no notes at all, not even a formula sheet.  That puts the emphasis on learning like a drone, imho, rather than understanding what you do.

I was a master at formula memorization. My grand stack of flashcards was a sight to behold come graduation. I have to say this skill is of limited utility as a professional Engineer :hmm:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Razgovory on February 09, 2016, 01:17:50 PM
My notes were always how to spell certain words.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Barrister on February 09, 2016, 01:32:08 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 10:59:49 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:54:40 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 09, 2016, 07:38:13 AM
I always provide the possible essay prompts before the exam, and even let the students bring notes.  If they can answer all of the essay questions before the exam starts, the exam has already served its purpose, and the students have gotten everything they can get from the course.  Nothing can stop willful ignorance.
it used to be that we could bring our notes for finance and stats exams, or at the very least, one sheet of notes/formulas, but my university later changed the policy to no notes at all, not even a formula sheet.  That puts the emphasis on learning like a drone, imho, rather than understanding what you do.

I was a master at formula memorization. My grand stack of flashcards was a sight to behold come graduation. I have to say this skill is of limited utility as a professional Engineer :hmm:

I always sucked at formula memorization.  The only D I ever got was in a Mineralogy course, which primarily revolved around trying to memorize the chemical composition of different minerals.

I was so happy when I learned that law school had open book exams. :weep:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 09, 2016, 05:09:09 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 09, 2016, 10:59:49 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:54:40 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 09, 2016, 07:38:13 AM
I always provide the possible essay prompts before the exam, and even let the students bring notes.  If they can answer all of the essay questions before the exam starts, the exam has already served its purpose, and the students have gotten everything they can get from the course.  Nothing can stop willful ignorance.
it used to be that we could bring our notes for finance and stats exams, or at the very least, one sheet of notes/formulas, but my university later changed the policy to no notes at all, not even a formula sheet.  That puts the emphasis on learning like a drone, imho, rather than understanding what you do.

I was a master at formula memorization. My grand stack of flashcards was a sight to behold come graduation. I have to say this skill is of limited utility as a professional Engineer :hmm:

I was always about the divided, foldable page. -_-
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 11, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on February 09, 2016, 08:25:55 AM
It may be that no man before or since has brought such fear to the hearts of white oppressors. No eulogy could be enough for this proud African warrior, but his memory lives on.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmdmspS8.jpg&hash=e467b09fedf3085b2618a323169de9e06e4abcf6)

Wait is that supposed to be Hannibal? Huh. Well I guess nobody can prove he DIDN'T look like that.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Malthus on February 11, 2016, 03:42:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
Wait is that supposed to be Hannibal? Huh. Well I guess nobody can prove he DIDN'T look like that.

That's exactly how I assume a descendant of Phoenician aristocrats would look like!  :D

Next up: how Cleopatra, descendant of generations of Macedonian inbreeding, was Black.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: celedhring on February 11, 2016, 03:47:54 PM
Yeah, I thought we had a pretty good idea what Punics/Phoenicians looked like, and surely it isn't like that.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: grumbler on February 11, 2016, 04:18:54 PM
Quote from: celedhring on February 11, 2016, 03:47:54 PM
Yeah, I thought we had a pretty good idea what Punics/Phoenicians looked like, and surely it isn't like that.

From Lettow's write up it is Nat Turner, like I said.  It looks a lot more like him (except for the hat) than it does Hannibal (or his brother Hasdrubal).
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Eddie Teach on February 11, 2016, 07:12:25 PM
I'd say the colonizers had done a fair amount of sinning by Turner's time.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: CountDeMoney on February 11, 2016, 09:16:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
Wait is that supposed to be Hannibal? Huh. Well I guess nobody can prove he DIDN'T look like that.

Hannibal Burress, maybe.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: grumbler on February 11, 2016, 09:45:25 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 11, 2016, 07:12:25 PM
I'd say the colonizers had done a fair amount of sinning by Turner's time.

Yes, but their since hadn't been undone yet.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Ancient Demon on February 19, 2016, 11:12:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
Wait is that supposed to be Hannibal?

I don't know, maybe it's one of those other African leaders who lead an army of elephants across the Alps.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Ancient Demon on February 19, 2016, 11:16:16 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:25 AM
Maybe white people are less likely to protest arrest because they feel it's racism, though.

(https://languish.org/forums/Smileys/langsmiley/yes.gif)
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Martinus on February 20, 2016, 01:16:51 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:25 AM
do we have stats on that?  'Cause I think lots of white people end up dead in that same situation too, in the US.
Maybe white people are less likely to protest arrest because they feel it's racism, though.

No stats, but based on anecdotal evidence, a bunch of white men have not only just resisted and protested arrest, but occupied a federal building, threatening to shoot policemen with rifles in the process. None were harmed.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: grumbler on February 20, 2016, 08:18:51 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 20, 2016, 01:16:51 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:25 AM
do we have stats on that?  'Cause I think lots of white people end up dead in that same situation too, in the US.
Maybe white people are less likely to protest arrest because they feel it's racism, though.

No stats, but based on anecdotal evidence, a bunch of white men have not only just resisted and protested arrest, but occupied a federal building, threatening to shoot policemen with rifles in the process. None were harmed.

None were harmed, but one was shot to death?  Okay...
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: dps on February 20, 2016, 02:04:30 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 08, 2016, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 08, 2016, 05:38:23 PM
Except I think that's wonderful advice for people of any colour in dealing with misbehaving authority figures.  Don't argue with the man holding a gun.  There are ways to seek your redress later on.

Except that arguing with an officer - which is something I would suggest can happen, out of the sheer sense of injustice, when you know you are innocent of any wrongdoing -  when you are white can send you to jail. Arguing with an officer when you are black can send you to the morgue.
do we have stats on that?  'Cause I think lots of white people end up dead in that same situation too, in the US.
Maybe white people are less likely to protest arrest because they feel it's racism, though.

Black or white, you're most likely NOT going to get shot during interaction with the police, even if you're being rude and uncooperative.  Granted, your chances of not being shot are better if you're white, but then again, your chances are also better if you're being polite and cooperative.  You can't really do much about whether you're black or white, but you can do something about whether your being polite and cooperative or not.  So really, your best bet, regardless of your race, is to be polite and cooperative.

I'll further grant that many cops take an obnoxious attitude that makes you want to be rude and uncooperative with them, and it can take a lot of self-discipline to not mouth off (or worse) to them, and that I personally haven't always been polite and cooperative.  And interestingly, when I've actually done something wrong I've been more polite and cooperative than when I haven't actually done anything wrong, so the idea that you're just being hassled by the cops without any good reason leads to you being, uhm, difficult has some merit--at least it's anecdotally true in my case.)

And to be clear, by being cooperative, I don't mean that you should waive any of your rights, and, yes, I realize that  some (many, most?) police officers will classify insisting on exercising your rights as being "uncooperative".
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: garbon on February 20, 2016, 02:08:14 PM
Just say 'yes massa' and it'll be alright.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Razgovory on February 20, 2016, 05:59:16 PM
Yes, because not being actively confrontational is equivalent of slavery. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Valmy on February 20, 2016, 11:30:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 20, 2016, 02:08:14 PM
Just say 'yes massa' and it'll be alright.

No way. That would imply I resent them on some level. And when some Texas Cop is losing his shit because you rolled through that one stop sign that is just a bad idea.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Razgovory on February 21, 2016, 02:05:35 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on February 09, 2016, 08:25:55 AM
It may be that no man before or since has brought such fear to the hearts of white oppressors. No eulogy could be enough for this proud African warrior, but his memory lives on.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmdmspS8.jpg&hash=e467b09fedf3085b2618a323169de9e06e4abcf6)

Wait is that supposed to be Hannibal? Huh. Well I guess nobody can prove he DIDN'T look like that.

Actually I think that was suppose to be Demaryius Thomas coming to join the Broncos in Denver.
Title: Re: Happy Black History Month Everybody!
Post by: Malthus on February 22, 2016, 09:41:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 20, 2016, 02:08:14 PM
Just say 'yes massa' and it'll be alright.

There are court officials in Ontario with the official title of "Master" (you address them as "Master [Smith] or just plain "Master"). They are lower on the judicial totem pole than judges, often dealing with stuff like scheduling motions. Being lesser, they are stereotypically reputed to have serious Napoleon complexes, and hassle young lawyers unmercifully over trifles.

One of the law students I articled with was a sassy Black chick, who said she found it difficult not to make fun of this fact.  :D The temptation to say "yes, massa" when being unreasonably hassled by one of these dudes must have been overwhelming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_(judiciary)