http://www.geek.com/news/every-chinese-citizen-will-soon-have-a-score-based-on-how-they-live-and-conform-1635832/
QuoteEvery Chinese citizen will soon have a score based on how they live and conform
In Western countries most people understand what a credit score is. It's a score an individual is awarded based on their assets, income, and credit history. It is a summary of how creditworthy you are and what potential risk you pose when, for example, a bank is deciding whether or not to loan you money.
China's new universal credit score system was only introduced this year and for now remains an optional system, but that changes to mandatory in less than 5 years. Unlike the Western equivalent, the Chinese version uses a lot more data to decide what an individual's score is, with the score ranging from 350 up to 950. It's possible to track what your score is with a free Sesame Credit app offered by Alibaba and it's linked to a national ID card.
Now for the scary bit: what is tracked and how it affects a score.
All social networks in China are run by either Alibaba or Tencent. The government has access to all this social data, tracks it, and tweaks scores based on it. These companies are in charge of keeping your score up-to-date. Assets, income, and credit history still play a part in the scoring, but so does political opinion. If you post a negative political comment or political thoughts without permission, your score goes down. Mention a particularly sensitive issue (e.g. Tienanmen Square massacre) and expect your score to be negatively impacted even further.
If that seems extreme, well, it gets worse. You see, because the data is being tracked through social networks the government knows who all your friends are. If any of your friends post political comments, their score goes down but so does yours because you are their friend. By linking the two it is clear the government wants everyone to keep their friends from stepping out of line.
Other things that can impact a score center around how an individual lives. Hobbies can either be a good or a bad thing. If you enjoy sports that involve exercise, that's probably going to increase your score. Video games, though? Expect to lose some points.
In China, the government has decided to take credit scores to a whole new level, turning them more into a life score by tracking anything and everything you do. And by 2020, this score will be a mandatory part of every Chinese citizen's life.
One final big one: shopping habits. If you buy certain products your score can increase. This suggests the government could choose to highlight certain products when it wants then to sell better with the reward being your credit score goes up. It's also going to be a way to force people to eat more healthy foods if junk food purchases decrease a score.
It's unclear at this early stage just how far the credit score system will go in terms of defining what Chinese citizens can and can't do day-to-day. However, we do have some initial score thresholds that suggest where this is heading. A score of 600 or more allows you to get an $800 loan, 650+ allows you to rent a car without a deposit. 700+ fast tracks you for a Singapore travel permit, and 750+ fast tracks you for a Schengen visa. Companies will also be able to make decisions based on these scores, e.g. a hotel could let people with a score above a certain threshold reserve a room without a deposit.
In the West, such a system would be met with outrage. However, over 100,000 people in China have already started using the credit score system and are bragging about their scores online. I'm sure that won't last, but everyone is going to have to get used to it when the system switches to mandatory use.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geek.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F10%2Fsesame-credit-score-590x330.jpg&hash=27f775e9ef74f8214aa18acc257e9e7444e24980)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geek.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F10%2FSesameCredit.jpg&hash=14e7853adee8f1d525fbe32440e4fd21c05d6d11)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geek.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F10%2Fsesame-credit.jpg&hash=b18656b097ce060eea670faa1cea0b2c72b3510e)
Talk about an Orwellian nightmare. :wacko:
From a technical standpoint, if you can quantify something like this, then my props to Chinese. It's very hard to optimize something that you can't measure.
Ide is applying for Chinese citizenship right now.
The Chinese should be wiped off the face of the planet. Then we can resettle the area, this time with humans.
Quote from: Syt on October 06, 2015, 08:13:04 AM
Ide is applying for Chinese citizenship right now.
Unnecessary. This will probably be standard in America before then. <_<
First time I have heard of this. Probably won't affect HKers directly, but I imagine it will be difficult to completely avoid. If we buy Chinese stuff online, for example, we'll be rated anyway.
I wonder how we can avoid getting a negative score.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 09:47:01 AM
First time I have heard of this. Probably won't affect HKers directly, but I imagine it will be difficult to completely avoid. If we buy Chinese stuff online, for example, we'll be rated anyway.
I wonder how we can avoid getting a negative score.
I hope posting in Languish doesn't give you a negative score. It would be a shame to lose you.
Quote from: Valmy on October 06, 2015, 09:48:43 AM
I hope posting in Languish doesn't give you a negative score. It would be a shame to lose you.
I'm not worried. Hong Kong is on a different system. Besides, I am not entirely sure if what is said in the article is true. Like I said, I haven't heard about this anywhere else.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 09:54:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 06, 2015, 09:48:43 AM
I hope posting in Languish doesn't give you a negative score. It would be a shame to lose you.
I'm not worried. Hong Kong is on a different system. Besides, I am not entirely sure if what is said in the article is true. Like I said, I haven't heard about this anywhere else.
Bloomberg had an article on it in August, it seems: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-08-13/china-s-lenders-want-to-check-your-social-media
And NYT in January: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/alibaba-creates-a-consumer-credit-rating-service/
QuoteThe company will use this information to assign credit scores ranging from 350 points to 950 points — the higher the better — and will factor in a user's credit history, online shopping preferences, repayment ability, personal information and online social networking activity.
Though not that it will be mandatory for citizens.
In the context of Chinese society, I think factoring social network activity into your credit score makes a lot of sense. If your outspoken nature gets yourself imprisoned or unemployable, it will certain affect your ability to repay your debts.
I don't know how they can make this truly mandatory. Lots of people don't use the internet at all. Retirees for example. They may not even have internet access. Besides, I am not sure if a credit rating is truly the best way to implement this. The thing with the Chinese government is that they keep everything secret. Nobody knows for sure what's going on. A credit rating is transparent. You can check what your score is. If you can check it, you can game the system. This isn't their way. If they implement a scoring system, they'll keep the numbers secret. So that they won't have to answer for it, and they can change your score at will.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:05:12 AM
I don't know how they can make this truly mandatory. Lots of people don't use the internet at all. Retirees for example. They may not even have internet access. Besides, I am not sure if a credit rating is truly the best way to implement this. The thing with the Chinese government is that they keep everything secret. Nobody knows for sure what's going on. A credit rating is transparent. You can check what your score is. If you can check it, you can game the system. This isn't their way. If they implement a scoring system, they'll keep the numbers secret. So that they won't have to answer for it, and they can change your score at will.
In that context, is gaming the system a bad thing? If everyone starts singing the praises of the Communist Party to get a better score, then isn't it what they want?
No I think Mono is absolutely right. Arbitrary power is the best power for keeping people in line. Otherwise people who have a high score might think they have 'credit' built up and are safe or something.
Mono, that sounds a bit derogatory of the government. You get five demerits for it that will go towards your overall score. ;)
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:05:12 AM
I don't know how they can make this truly mandatory. Lots of people don't use the internet at all. Retirees for example. They may not even have internet access. Besides, I am not sure if a credit rating is truly the best way to implement this. The thing with the Chinese government is that they keep everything secret. Nobody knows for sure what's going on. A credit rating is transparent. You can check what your score is. If you can check it, you can game the system. This isn't their way. If they implement a scoring system, they'll keep the numbers secret. So that they won't have to answer for it, and they can change your score at will.
In that context, is gaming the system a bad thing? If everyone starts singing the praises of the Communist Party to get a better score, then isn't it what they want?
The point is there is no reason to let you know what the party thinks about you. The party is not going to warn you that you have done something wrong, or to give you feedback in the form of an open score. You are supposed to figure out what the higher ups like or don't like, and act accordingly. Why release the score at all?
Quote from: Valmy on October 06, 2015, 10:12:09 AM
No I think Mono is absolutely right. Arbitrary power is the best power for keeping people in line. Otherwise people who have a high score might think they have 'credit' built up and are safe or something.
You can set execution triggers not just based on overall scores, but also based on quick changes.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:14:18 AM
The point is there is no reason to let you know what the party thinks about you. The party is not going to warn you that you have done something wrong, or to give you feedback in the form of an open score. You are supposed to figure out what the higher ups like or don't like, and act accordingly. Why release the score at all?
:hmm: That sound like a pretty terrible strategy. Feedback is a crucial part of education.
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:14:18 AM
The point is there is no reason to let you know what the party thinks about you. The party is not going to warn you that you have done something wrong, or to give you feedback in the form of an open score. You are supposed to figure out what the higher ups like or don't like, and act accordingly. Why release the score at all?
:hmm: That sound like a pretty terrible strategy. Feedback is a crucial part of education.
Nobody is interested in education. Keeping people in the dark helps to keep them in line. Nobody is going to tell you what is acceptable or not. Because a crucial part of being in power is the ability to determine what is acceptable or not at a whim. The people need to be trained to follow the leader, not to follow rules. If the leader tells you what the rules are, the rules may end up binding the leader. To maintain the reality that the leader is the rule, it is crucial that he doesn't tell you what the rules are.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:23:19 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:14:18 AM
The point is there is no reason to let you know what the party thinks about you. The party is not going to warn you that you have done something wrong, or to give you feedback in the form of an open score. You are supposed to figure out what the higher ups like or don't like, and act accordingly. Why release the score at all?
:hmm: That sound like a pretty terrible strategy. Feedback is a crucial part of education.
Nobody is interested in education. Keeping people in the dark helps to keep them in line. Nobody is going to tell you what is acceptable or not. Because a crucial part of being in power is the ability to determine what is acceptable or not at a whim. The people need to be trained to follow the leader, not to follow rules. If the leader tells you what the rules are, the rules may end up binding the leader. To maintain the reality that the leader is the rule, it is crucial that he doesn't tell you what the rules are.
So basically the rule is that the leader is always right. No other rules needed.
Quote from: PJL on October 06, 2015, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:23:19 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 10:14:18 AM
The point is there is no reason to let you know what the party thinks about you. The party is not going to warn you that you have done something wrong, or to give you feedback in the form of an open score. You are supposed to figure out what the higher ups like or don't like, and act accordingly. Why release the score at all?
:hmm: That sound like a pretty terrible strategy. Feedback is a crucial part of education.
Nobody is interested in education. Keeping people in the dark helps to keep them in line. Nobody is going to tell you what is acceptable or not. Because a crucial part of being in power is the ability to determine what is acceptable or not at a whim. The people need to be trained to follow the leader, not to follow rules. If the leader tells you what the rules are, the rules may end up binding the leader. To maintain the reality that the leader is the rule, it is crucial that he doesn't tell you what the rules are.
So basically the rule is that the leader is always right. No other rules needed.
That's right. Because otherwise people might start wondering why the leader isn't subject to the same rules as everyone else...
I don't see how this would be negated by a public score. You just have to make the rules opaque and intransparent.
They could save money by simply using a random number generator to sort the sheep from the goats; the randomness would also maximise intimidation whilst avoiding discrimination.
I am reminded of people saying what it was like to live in Revolutionary Iran. The Revolutionary Guards would arrest people for completely arbitrary reasons. Really devout Islamic folks would get arrested for tiny little infractions. One woman was arrested for having too much of a head scarf. It created an atmosphere of paranoia, demoralization, and subservience among the population.
I am also reminded of Russia having such a complicated and opaque tax system that nobody really followed it...and it would be enforced almost entirely to attack people the state did not like and made everybody eager to keep on the powers that be's good side.
Arbitrariness is a pretty powerful tool.
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
In that context, is gaming the system a bad thing? If everyone starts singing the praises of the Communist Party to get a better score, then isn't it what they want?
Oh I forgot to mention one thing. They buy praises on the internet. No need to do this the convoluted way. Hundreds of thousands of university students have been hired to do nothing but browse the internet all day, looking for opportunities to praise the government and discredit anybody who criticises the government. At 50 cents RMB per post (like US$0.08). So they are called the 50 cent army/party.
Quote from: Valmy on October 06, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
I am reminded of people saying what it was like to live in Revolutionary Iran. The Revolutionary Guards would arrest people for completely arbitrary reasons. Really devout Islamic folks would get arrested for tiny little infractions. One woman was arrested for having too much of a head scarf. It created an atmosphere of paranoia, demoralization, and subservience among the population.
I am also reminded of Russia having such a complicated and opaque tax system that nobody really followed it...and it would be enforced almost entirely to attack people the state did not like and made everybody eager to keep on the powers that be's good side.
Arbitrariness is a pretty powerful tool.
One of the most brilliant crimes invented in ancient China was called "unnecessary". Imagine one day, the state accuses you of having committed a crime. You are dragged in front of a tribunal, and you ask the court what crime you have committed. The judge announces that the title of your crime is "unnecessary" - he doesn't even need to have a pretext for prosecution. The emperor can execute anybody he pleases, anywhere, any time, and he doesn't need to prepare a story for it. How can you answer a case that doesn't exist?
So this will be like a university admission application?
Quote from: Valmy on October 06, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
I am reminded of people saying what it was like to live in Revolutionary Iran. The Revolutionary Guards would arrest people for completely arbitrary reasons. Really devout Islamic folks would get arrested for tiny little infractions. One woman was arrested for having too much of a head scarf. It created an atmosphere of paranoia, demoralization, and subservience among the population.
I am also reminded of Russia having such a complicated and opaque tax system that nobody really followed it...and it would be enforced almost entirely to attack people the state did not like and made everybody eager to keep on the powers that be's good side.
Arbitrariness is a pretty powerful tool.
Yeah. Or to tell black people that they better behave in front of a policeman or they can get shot for acting in a "threatening" manner. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2015, 11:36:36 AM
Yeah. Or to tell black people that they better behave in front of a policeman or they can get shot for acting in a "threatening" manner. ;)
OMG you mean the US is A COMPLETELY EVIL TOTALITARIAN STATE!!11
Of course it is Marty. All of our Presidents are Hitler. Better ally with Putin.
But yes. That is basically how it works. You do not even have to shoot that many people.
We are getting pretty close to this, at least potentially, in the UK with our "hate" speech, obscene pornography and "extremist" laws. I suppose that the better-behaved half of the population has not been in breach of these laws, but for the half of us who are sinners we could technically be charged.
Friend Computer has my complete confidence. :)
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 06, 2015, 11:42:55 AM
We are getting pretty close to this, at least potentially, in the UK with our "hate" speech, obscene pornography and "extremist" laws. I suppose that the better-behaved half of the population has not been in breach of these laws, but for the half of us who are sinners we could technically be charged.
It can be pretty difficult for the average person to avoid breaking the law when there are so many laws and of such complexity.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 11:08:49 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
In that context, is gaming the system a bad thing? If everyone starts singing the praises of the Communist Party to get a better score, then isn't it what they want?
Oh I forgot to mention one thing. They buy praises on the internet. No need to do this the convoluted way. Hundreds of thousands of university students have been hired to do nothing but browse the internet all day, looking for opportunities to praise the government and discredit anybody who criticises the government. At 50 cents RMB per post (like US$0.08). So they are called the 50 cent army/party.
Totally bizarre. :wacko:
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 11:08:49 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
In that context, is gaming the system a bad thing? If everyone starts singing the praises of the Communist Party to get a better score, then isn't it what they want?
Oh I forgot to mention one thing. They buy praises on the internet. No need to do this the convoluted way. Hundreds of thousands of university students have been hired to do nothing but browse the internet all day, looking for opportunities to praise the government and discredit anybody who criticises the government. At 50 cents RMB per post (like US$0.08). So they are called the 50 cent army/party.
Where can I apply?
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 11:08:49 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
In that context, is gaming the system a bad thing? If everyone starts singing the praises of the Communist Party to get a better score, then isn't it what they want?
Oh I forgot to mention one thing. They buy praises on the internet. No need to do this the convoluted way. Hundreds of thousands of university students have been hired to do nothing but browse the internet all day, looking for opportunities to praise the government and discredit anybody who criticises the government. At 50 cents RMB per post (like US$0.08). So they are called the 50 cent army/party.
Some Western propaganda tools claim that something like this exists in Russia as well. It's false, of course, but the dying fascist Western powers will do everything to smear Russia, now that it's getting off its knees.
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 09:47:01 AM
I wonder how we can avoid getting a negative score.
Ditch all your anime collection and hit the gym, now!
Mono would get locked up just based on his piracy alone. :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on October 06, 2015, 11:41:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2015, 11:36:36 AM
Yeah. Or to tell black people that they better behave in front of a policeman or they can get shot for acting in a "threatening" manner. ;)
OMG you mean the US is A COMPLETELY EVIL TOTALITARIAN STATE!!11
Of course it is Marty. All of our Presidents are Hitler. Better ally with Putin.
But yes. That is basically how it works. You do not even have to shoot that many people.
I was being cheeky. :P
Nandos the lot of you.
Quote from: Ideologue on October 06, 2015, 12:52:40 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 11:08:49 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 06, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
In that context, is gaming the system a bad thing? If everyone starts singing the praises of the Communist Party to get a better score, then isn't it what they want?
Oh I forgot to mention one thing. They buy praises on the internet. No need to do this the convoluted way. Hundreds of thousands of university students have been hired to do nothing but browse the internet all day, looking for opportunities to praise the government and discredit anybody who criticises the government. At 50 cents RMB per post (like US$0.08). So they are called the 50 cent army/party.
Where can I apply?
Can you type Chinese? :)
Quote from: Monoriu on October 06, 2015, 11:25:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on October 06, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
I am reminded of people saying what it was like to live in Revolutionary Iran. The Revolutionary Guards would arrest people for completely arbitrary reasons. Really devout Islamic folks would get arrested for tiny little infractions. One woman was arrested for having too much of a head scarf. It created an atmosphere of paranoia, demoralization, and subservience among the population.
I am also reminded of Russia having such a complicated and opaque tax system that nobody really followed it...and it would be enforced almost entirely to attack people the state did not like and made everybody eager to keep on the powers that be's good side.
Arbitrariness is a pretty powerful tool.
One of the most brilliant crimes invented in ancient China was called "unnecessary". Imagine one day, the state accuses you of having committed a crime. You are dragged in front of a tribunal, and you ask the court what crime you have committed. The judge announces that the title of your crime is "unnecessary" - he doesn't even need to have a pretext for prosecution. The emperor can execute anybody he pleases, anywhere, any time, and he doesn't need to prepare a story for it. How can you answer a case that doesn't exist?
There is a classic American novel about this very concept. It's a comedy.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 06, 2015, 03:32:02 PM
There is a classic American novel about this very concept. It's a comedy.
Which one?
Interesting this pops up at the same time there is a fuss in the west about that awful "Peepl" thing :lol:
Sounds more like Kafka. Or Alice in Wonderland.