So I now think my yesterday's blurb in the Off Topic thread deserves its own thread:
QuoteWorld | Sat Oct 3, 2015 10:37am EDT Related: WORLD, POPE
Vatican sacks gay priest after highly public coming out
VATICAN CITY | BY PHILIP PULLELLA
The Vatican on Saturday dismissed a gay priest from his Holy See job on the eve of a major Church meeting for a highly public coming out that challenged the Roman Catholic teaching that homosexual acts are a sin.
Monsignor Krzysztof Charamsa, a Polish theologian, had worked at the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican's doctrinal arm, since 2003. He was also sacked from his jobs teaching theology at pontifical universities in Rome.
Charamsa, 43, told Italy's Corriere della Sera newspaper that he was gay and had a partner in an interview published on Saturday. The Church does not consider homosexuality a sin but priests, whether heterosexual or gay, are meant to be celibate.
Charasma also held a news conference with his partner and gay activists at a Rome restaurant. They had planned a demonstration in front of the Vatican but changed the venue several hours before it was due to have started.
The Vatican said the dismissal had nothing to do with Charasma's reflections on his personal life, which it said "merit respect".
But it said giving the interview and the planned demonstration was "grave and irresponsible" given their timing on the eve of a synod of bishops who will discuss family issues, including the Church's position on gays.
It said his actions would subject the synod, which Pope Francis is due to open on Sunday, to "undue media pressure".
At the news conference, Charamsa said he wanted to make "an enormous noise for the good of the Church" and apply "good Christian pressure" on the synod not to forget homosexual believers.
"This decision of mine to come out was a very personal one taken in a Catholic Church that is homophobic and very difficult and harsh (towards gays)," he said.
He suggested that a study be made of how many homosexuals work in the Vatican. "We can't continue showing contempt and offence towards homosexuals," he said.
The issue of homosexuality and the Church has dominated the aftermath of the pope's visit to the United States last week.
"I ask the pope to be strong and to remember us, homosexuals, lesbians, transsexuals and bisexuals as children of the Church and members of humanity," Charamsa said.
The Vatican has been embarrassed by a row over the pope's meeting during his U.S. trip with Kim Davis, a Kentucky county clerk who went to jail in September for refusing to honor a U.S. Supreme Court ruling and issue same-sex marriage licences.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/03/us-vatican-preist-gay-idUSKCN0RX0DK20151003
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.reutersmedia.net%2Fresources%2Fr%2F%3Fm%3D02%26amp%3Bd%3D20151003%26amp%3Bt%3D2%26amp%3Bi%3D1084216731%26amp%3Bw%3D%26amp%3Bfh%3D%26amp%3Bfw%3D%26amp%3Bll%3D644%26amp%3Bpl%3D429%26amp%3Bsq%3D%26amp%3Br%3DLYNXNPEB92057&hash=6e15ca6bca1784eb240023149767ead4fef09a7e)
I have a bit of mixed feelings about the fact that he is actually in a relationship - as that's a no-no, whether you are a straight or a gay priest - but other than that more power to him, I say.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8, 32.
P.S. He is quite good looking too.
So the tl;dr is that the priest got the boot for not being celibate.
Yep. They would have done the same if it was a woman. Wish he had done the honorable thing and resigned.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2015, 12:24:38 PM
Yep. They would have done the same if it was a woman. Wish he had done the honorable thing and resigned.
Well he's an epic level attention whore. Invite to Languish?
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 03, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
So the tl;dr is that the priest got the boot for not being celibate.
The Vatican also seems to be upset with the timing and manner in which it was done.
Quote from: crazy canuck on October 03, 2015, 12:53:23 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 03, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
So the tl;dr is that the priest got the boot for not being celibate.
The Vatican also seems to be upset with the timing and manner in which it was done.
I'm sure they are, since he basically gave them the finger. But Marty probably wants to make this a gay issue. Let's not give him the pleasure.
Of course most people who don't get past headlines will only see this as a church gay-bashing incident.
I agree. There were good reasons to remove him independent of his sexual orientation.
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 03, 2015, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2015, 12:24:38 PM
Yep. They would have done the same if it was a woman. Wish he had done the honorable thing and resigned.
Well he's an epic level attention whore. Invite to Languish?
There is a pattern emerging for Polish gay guys
You guys are ascribing way too many motives to me than warranted.
I for one am shocked there have been gays at high levels in the Vatican.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 03, 2015, 01:40:47 PM
I for one am shocked there have been gays at high levels in the Vatican.
Yeah. I can't wait for the guy to write a tell-all book. :cool:
Good riddance. Fucking hypocrite.
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 01:47:36 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on October 03, 2015, 01:40:47 PM
I for one am shocked there have been gays at high levels in the Vatican.
Yeah. I can't wait for the guy to write a tell-all book. :cool:
Oh yeah Marty those motives were not warranted at all.
"It doesn't count if it's in the ass" only applies to hetero relationships btw.
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 02:58:08 PM
Good riddance. Fucking hypocrite.
How is he a hypocrite if he is the one to come out publicly, while countless others hide it - and publicly condemn gay relationships?
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2015, 03:00:45 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 01:47:36 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on October 03, 2015, 01:40:47 PM
I for one am shocked there have been gays at high levels in the Vatican.
Yeah. I can't wait for the guy to write a tell-all book. :cool:
Oh yeah Marty those motives were not warranted at all.
Sometimes I wonder what side you are on.
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:05:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 02:58:08 PM
Good riddance. Fucking hypocrite.
How is he a hypocrite if he is the one to come out publicly, while countless others hide it - and publicly condemn gay relationships?
He wasn't magicked into existence yesterday, dude. :lol:
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:05:51 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:05:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 02:58:08 PM
Good riddance. Fucking hypocrite.
How is he a hypocrite if he is the one to come out publicly, while countless others hide it - and publicly condemn gay relationships?
He wasn't magicked into existence yesterday, dude. :lol:
Yes, but at least to date he has been speaking out against homophobia and hate speech in the Catholic church.
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:07:16 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:05:51 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:05:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 02:58:08 PM
Good riddance. Fucking hypocrite.
How is he a hypocrite if he is the one to come out publicly, while countless others hide it - and publicly condemn gay relationships?
He wasn't magicked into existence yesterday, dude. :lol:
Yes, but at least to date he has been speaking out against homophobia and hate speech in the Catholic church.
I don't give a flying fuck if he breaks his vows with men or women.
Ok let me spell it out for you.
1. There are countless bishops, cardinals and priests who break their vows with men or women.
2. This guy is the only one who came clean about it (and not by being outed by another person).
3. To date he has been speaking out against homophobia, chauvinism and hate speech in the Catholic church.
No. 2 and no. 3 make him much better (and much less a hypocrite) than countless others who fall into the group described under 1 but not under 2 and 3.
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:10:48 PM
Ok let me spell it out for you.
1. There are countless bishops, cardinals and priests who break their vows with men or women.
2. This guy is the only one who came clean about it (and not by being outed by another person).
3. To date he has been speaking out against homophobia, chauvinism and hate speech in the Catholic church.
No. 2 and no. 3 make him much better (and much less a hypocrite) than countless others who fall into the group described under 1 but not under 2 and 3.
Others do it so it's OK for him to do it? OK, counsel.
I went to catholic school. My biology teacher was a rather young and good looking priest that was into body building. He used to talk to us about gay rights and how discrimination against gays was wrong.
Then one day he was caught having sex with the pastor of my church by a maid. The pastor hit the maid in an attempt to intimidate her into staying quiet, but then she went to the cops.
My biology teacher was immediately transferred to another town and school. I never saw him after the incident, but I understand he was really upset about being transferred. I googled him a couple years ago--he is still a priest.
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
I don't particularly care for people who, when they found out that their employer was a pedophile ring, didn't quit their jobs. I've quit jobs for way less. Catholic priests are scum.
tl;dr for this thread:
Martinus resorts to usual gay hysterics.
Martinus challenges Brain to step up the plate. Brain hits home run.
Martinus ragequits thread.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 03, 2015, 03:13:42 PM
I went to catholic school. My biology teacher was a rather young and good looking priest that was into body building. He used to talk to us about gay rights and how discrimination against gays was wrong.
Then one day he was caught having sex with the pastor of my church by a maid. The pastor hit the maid in an attempt to intimidate her into staying quiet, but then she went to the cops.
My biology teacher was immediately transferred to another town and school. I never saw him after the incident, but I understand he was really upset about being transferred. I googled him a couple years ago--he is still a priest.
According to some studies, up to 1/3 of Catholic priests are gay. The Catholic church needs to own up to it and change its stance on gays if it wants this situation to change - Catholicism is more cultural than most other Christian creeds, so most young gay Catholics consider becoming priests (I knew I did) because the religion does not offer them any other respectable choice.
Why don't they get rid of this whole celebacy for priests thing? The Church got along fine for many centuries without it.
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:14:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
I don't particularly care for people who, when they found out that their employer was a pedophile ring, didn't quit their jobs. I've quit jobs for way less. Catholic priests are scum.
Ok now I understand where you are coming from. I disagree but I understand. I think there is a reason why "lapsed Catholic" is considered something else from an agnostic or atheist - I think the pull of the organised religion is very strong for Catholics; I also think there are priests who stay in the Catholic Church out of good intentions.
I don't think the Catholic church is a pedophile ring - it is a very ambiguous and corrupt organisation but one that still does some good and has a lot of people in it who mean well.
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:05:34 PM
Sometimes I wonder what side you are on.
I just do not get why this guy is somebody to be celebrated. Sounds like an asshole. He took the opposite of a principled stand. I am not excited about the idea he could make a buck off of some book.
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:20:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:14:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
I don't particularly care for people who, when they found out that their employer was a pedophile ring, didn't quit their jobs. I've quit jobs for way less. Catholic priests are scum.
Ok now I understand where you are coming from. I disagree but I understand. I think there is a reason why "lapsed Catholic" is considered something else from an agnostic or atheist - I think the pull of the organised religion is very strong for Catholics; I also think there are priests who stay in the Catholic Church out of good intentions.
I don't think the Catholic church is a pedophile ring - it is a very ambiguous and corrupt organisation but one that still does some good and has a lot of people in it who mean well.
Fair enough. As a card-carrying Lutheran I am bound to hate your Anti-Christ and his minions.
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:19:00 PM
Why don't they get rid of this whole celebacy for priests thing? The Church got along fine for many centuries without it.
I agree - they should. I think this priest's actions were aimed at doing something about it (even though they seem a tad theatrical - I agree about this). I think he is a good man though (I read his article in a Catholic magazine few weeks ago where he attacked inherent homophobia, mizogyny etc. within the attitudes of some priests but has done some from theological grounds).
To be honest, I think that at the end of the day Christianity is still a worthy concept, but one that needs revival and reconstruction. I think the Catholic Church is best placed to be a vehicle of such revival, but it needs to first get a grip and get on with the times.
Quote from: Valmy on October 03, 2015, 03:20:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:05:34 PM
Sometimes I wonder what side you are on.
I just do not get why this guy is somebody to be celebrated. Sounds like an asshole. He took the opposite of a principled stand. I am not excited about the idea he could make a buck off of some book.
My comment about the book was tongue in cheek. Perhaps the reason why I support this guy is because I know more of a background about him, and I don't think he is acting out of ego or self-interest. I think he is seriously trying to cause change in the Catholic church, even though you may question some of his actions (as I said in the opening post, it would probably be "better" if he was celibate/single - but then who am I to tell people how they should live their own lives to conform with some sort of "strategy").
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:21:39 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:20:08 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:14:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
I don't particularly care for people who, when they found out that their employer was a pedophile ring, didn't quit their jobs. I've quit jobs for way less. Catholic priests are scum.
Ok now I understand where you are coming from. I disagree but I understand. I think there is a reason why "lapsed Catholic" is considered something else from an agnostic or atheist - I think the pull of the organised religion is very strong for Catholics; I also think there are priests who stay in the Catholic Church out of good intentions.
I don't think the Catholic church is a pedophile ring - it is a very ambiguous and corrupt organisation but one that still does some good and has a lot of people in it who mean well.
Fair enough. As a card-carrying Lutheran I am bound to hate your Anti-Christ and his minions.
Good. :)
Gotta say I am getting slightly more mixed feelings about this. Apparently the priest has two press interviews, a documentary and a book deal all lined up. :hmm:
Looking out for number one is a sin now?
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
You're not female or even a straight man, but I see you bitching about women all the time. :hmm:
Quote from: Ideologue on October 04, 2015, 04:49:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
You're not female or even a straight man, but I see you bitching about women all the time. :hmm:
Care to explain why a straight man would be more authorised to "bitch about woman" than a gay one? :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on October 04, 2015, 10:11:34 AM
Care to explain why a straight man would be more authorised to "bitch about woman" than a gay one? :hmm:
Can't live with 'em, can't live without- err, wait a minute, I guess you can.
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:14:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
I don't particularly care for people who, when they found out that their employer was a pedophile ring, didn't quit their jobs. I've quit jobs for way less. Catholic priests are scum.
by that account, most religious people of the world are scums, especially religious figures. There has been pedophilia scandals in just about any religion or organisation. Just the other day in Quebec city, a Baptist priest was discovered to keep kids locked up in the basement. He mistreated them, beat them, punched them, all with parental consent because it was good for their education.
Quote from: viper37 on October 04, 2015, 01:58:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 03, 2015, 03:14:08 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
And you are neither gay or Catholic, so I am not sure why you are even commenting. Maybe go post some jokes about beastiality and nuclear strikes?
I don't particularly care for people who, when they found out that their employer was a pedophile ring, didn't quit their jobs. I've quit jobs for way less. Catholic priests are scum.
by that account, most religious people of the world are scums, especially religious figures. There has been pedophilia scandals in just about any religion or organisation. Just the other day in Quebec city, a Baptist priest was discovered to keep kids locked up in the basement. He mistreated them, beat them, punched them, all with parental consent because it was good for their education.
Don't get me started on Baptists.
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:00:19 PM
Don't get me started on Baptists.
http://reformation.com/CSA/lutheranabuse.html (http://reformation.com/CSA/lutheranabuse.html)
I guess it's time to turn in your card.
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:16:59 PM
According to some studies, up to 1/3 of Catholic priests are gay.
I don't really doubt those numbers. For people raised in a strongly religious community, in countries where there is active discrimination against gays, if discovered by their family, they'll be pushed toward priesthood to hide that shameful fact.
Others may join of their free will, for the same reason, they think prayer and discipline will keep them for sinning.
Quote
The Catholic church needs to own up to it and change its stance on gays if it wants this situation to change - Catholicism is more cultural than most other Christian creeds, so most young gay Catholics consider becoming priests (I knew I did) because the religion does not offer them any other respectable choice.
What situation does the Catholic Church wants to change? Homosexuality is a sin, and priest must be celibate, that means, gay or hetero, no sex for a priest unless he was married before becoming a priest.
I can't see that changing anytime soon. And I can't think any solution to the "gay problem" will come from the Church or any other Church. It's up to society to evolve and distance itself from religion. Then and only then will the Church change. So long as the churches are filled to the brim and the coffers overflow, nothing will change.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:00:19 PM
Don't get me started on Baptists.
http://reformation.com/CSA/lutheranabuse.html (http://reformation.com/CSA/lutheranabuse.html)
I guess it's time to turn in your card.
Why?
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:08:53 PM
Why?
So working for them is a no-no, but joining a club is A-ok?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:08:53 PM
Why?
So working for them is a no-no, but joining a club is A-ok?
It hasn't come to my attention that the Church of Sweden is a pedophile ring.
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Neither are priests who don't cover for abusers.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Neither are priests who don't cover for abusers.
If they don't quit their job I think they are.
Quote from: viper37 on October 04, 2015, 02:06:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 03, 2015, 03:16:59 PM
According to some studies, up to 1/3 of Catholic priests are gay.
I don't really doubt those numbers. For people raised in a strongly religious community, in countries where there is active discrimination against gays, if discovered by their family, they'll be pushed toward priesthood to hide that shameful fact.
Others may join of their free will, for the same reason, they think prayer and discipline will keep them for sinning.
Quote
The Catholic church needs to own up to it and change its stance on gays if it wants this situation to change - Catholicism is more cultural than most other Christian creeds, so most young gay Catholics consider becoming priests (I knew I did) because the religion does not offer them any other respectable choice.
Yup. I don't know a gay man coming from a Catholic background who did not, at least at some point, contemplate becoming a priest. I don't think it is even as much being pushed by the family - usually this comes before they come out. Celibacy in fact provides a perfect "cover" (along with that, for other, less savory types too, such as pedophiles).
QuoteWhat situation does the Catholic Church wants to change? Homosexuality is a sin, and priest must be celibate, that means, gay or hetero, no sex for a priest unless he was married before becoming a priest.
Actually, there is a lot of push back from some portions of the Catholic Church to change the stance on both homosexuality and celibacy. This is still a minority view (at least as far as the hierarchy is concerned) but it is gaining momentum, especially in the West. This is why there is a synod in Rome right now discussing these issues.
QuoteI can't see that changing anytime soon. And I can't think any solution to the "gay problem" will come from the Church or any other Church. It's up to society to evolve and distance itself from religion. Then and only then will the Church change. So long as the churches are filled to the brim and the coffers overflow, nothing will change.
The thing is, they aren't. At least not anymore. Even in Poland.
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Neither are priests who don't cover for abusers.
If they don't quit their job I think they are.
I am not sure I understand the distinction. :hmm:
So, read his interview for Polish Newsweek. Quite a complex motivation, but I do not disagree or condemn his motives - essentially (in short) his position seems to be that the Church is mistaken on the issue of homosexuality and celibacy, but that does not mean he should quit the Church, being a priest and a man of faith.
I have a hard time disagreeing with this logic - after all, most great reformers and heretics of the Church (such as Luther) did not leave the church either (despite preaching stuff that was not consistent with the official doctrine) but rather were pushed out of it.
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2015, 01:24:19 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Neither are priests who don't cover for abusers.
If they don't quit their job I think they are.
I am not sure I understand the distinction. :hmm:
Well, suppose that there is a business that has personnel policies you don't like, but sells products that you like at a what you consider a good, fair price. You wouldn't work there, but you might very well remain a customer.
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2015, 01:24:19 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Neither are priests who don't cover for abusers.
If they don't quit their job I think they are.
I am not sure I understand the distinction. :hmm:
I don't expect people to throw their religion away. I do expect them to quit a job.
I didn't expect the head of the physics department to quit because of the child molestation scandal at Penn State, but maybe I should. Maybe I should.
Quote from: The Brain on October 05, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2015, 01:24:19 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Neither are priests who don't cover for abusers.
If they don't quit their job I think they are.
I am not sure I understand the distinction. :hmm:
I don't expect people to throw their religion away. I do expect them to quit a job.
is being a priest really a simple job? Like an accountant or a clerk?
It's impossible to get by in modern society (or probably any society) without in some way or fashion supporting something evil. So I just try not to directly cause evil. Every job I've ever had has involved some kind of evil, whether it be the selling of animal flesh at restaurants or just the low-grade extortion or wastefulness of doc review. Obviously, consuming virtually any good involves the indirect support of slave labor.
Brain maybe does have the job in a million that doesn't involve something bad. We'll see if those casks crack, I guess.
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2015, 01:22:21 AM
The thing is, they aren't. At least not anymore. Even in Poland.
And in Quebec either. But when it started to change, eventually, the Church had to adapt.
There is still strong opposition to euthanasia, but opposition to gay marriage has all but disapeared in the province. Abortion is not even talked about anymore with the last of the old guard passing away.
Homophobia from the clergy is non existant and has been for many years. A priest saying something along the lines of "all gays will burn in hell" would be shunned by the public and the press.
While divorcees where not officially authorized to participate in the communion and the Church still frowns on it, religious people in a very difficult relationship who consult a priest would likely (I know at least a few cases) be counseled to seek a divorce and get out of this marriage.
But none of this existed in the 50s. Priests were doing their "rounds" visiting women in villages, telling them it was their sacred duty to have babies, to submit to their confugal duties. No divorce would ever be advised, even for a woman with a violent husband. A divorcee would be shunned by her local Church and community. Protestantism wasn't really popular amongst french speakers.
Quote from: dps on October 05, 2015, 03:14:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 05, 2015, 01:24:19 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 04, 2015, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 04, 2015, 02:47:54 PM
I haven't suggested that members who don't leave the Catholic Church over the Church being a pedophile ring are scum.
Neither are priests who don't cover for abusers.
If they don't quit their job I think they are.
I am not sure I understand the distinction. :hmm:
Well, suppose that there is a business that has personnel policies you don't like, but sells products that you like at a what you consider a good, fair price. You wouldn't work there, but you might very well remain a customer.
But that analogy is completely inadequate when it comes to the Catholic Church, at least when we are talking about the motivation of a member of the Catholic Church. If you are Catholic, you believe that all Catholics are a part of universal church - both the clergy and the laymen.
Quote from: The Brain on October 05, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
I don't expect people to throw their religion away. I do expect them to quit a job.
Priesthood is a holy sacrament, like marriage. "Quitting your job" as a priest is at least as "sinful" for a Catholic as getting divorced (or even more as priesthood is a marriage to God).
QuotePope Francis Clarifies That God Just One Of Many Immortal Beings Who Speak To Him Every Day
VATICAN CITY—Explaining how he rarely goes more than an hour or two without hearing from one of them or another, Pope Francis revealed to reporters Tuesday that God is just one of many immortal beings who speak to him on a daily basis. "God is always there to listen to my prayers and provide spiritual guidance, but on any given day, there are maybe 15 or 20 other undying entities from beyond our world—Anubis, Quetzalcoatl, Freyja, you name it—who get in touch with me," said the bishop of Rome, adding that, over the course of a month, he communicates with hundreds of various deities, spirits, numina, naiads, dryads, and wraiths who come bearing some kind of important message or just check in to see how he's doing. "Sure, in my day-to-day job I serve as an earthly liaison for the Lord Our God. But to be honest, I don't talk to Him nearly as much as I do Hanuman or Nerrivik the Sea-Mother. Actually, I just finished up talking with Phobos and Deimos right before this—love those two." The pontiff added that while he typically enjoys the company, he's getting a little tired of having to listen to the endless whining of all the banshees who hang around him.
http://www.theonion.com/article/pope-francis-clarifies-god-just-one-many-immortal--51470
:lol:
Quote from: Martinus on October 06, 2015, 01:08:31 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 05, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
I don't expect people to throw their religion away. I do expect them to quit a job.
Priesthood is a holy sacrament, like marriage. "Quitting your job" as a priest is at least as "sinful" for a Catholic as getting divorced (or even more as priesthood is a marriage to God).
I don't doubt that they try to justify their behavior with references to Sky Santa. Doesn't change that a person who is so invested in his job that he will work for a pedophile ring is a seriously fucked up individual.
Quote from: The Brain on October 06, 2015, 12:42:14 PM
I don't doubt that they try to justify their behavior with references to Sky Santa. Doesn't change that a person who is so invested in his job that he will work for a pedophile ring is a seriously fucked up individual.
the Vatican was never a pedophile ring. No more than Penn State was, no more than the other Protestant Church were.
http://clergygonewild.com/sex-abuse/34-child-abuse
There's a big difference between how the churches handled such case and giving open support and aid to pedophiles in recruiting their victimes. There's also that in many cases, the parents never wanted to believe their child was abused by a man of God.
Why would anyone give open support and aid to pedophiles?