It's a pretty long article, so I won't quote it here; but it is very interesting reading
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html
It boils down to measuring everyone's performance non-stop, leading to performance reviews with dozens of pages of metrics on which you can be quizzed. Generally, it's expected that you're available (and working) for the company at any time, be it vacation or off time. Little things like cancer or miscarriage shouldn't let you lose your focus. Meetings are open and frank, and it's generally preferred that you attack someone's idea than seek a compromise, the idea being that this conflict and constant second guessing will produce the most robust/correct decisions.
At the same time, there's doubtless people who thrive in this environment, who see it as a challenge and a way to excel/grow. And Amazon is pretty up front that they're not an employer for everyone and that people will either love or hate working there.
Me, I think life is too short for this kind of bullshit. :P
Sounds awful. Though if they offer enough money, I might put up with it for a while.
At 41/42, I'd be shown the door faster than it could hit my lazy ass.
My favorite quote from the article was a comment from an (ex-?) employee who said they used to joke that Amazon is where overachievers go to feel bad about themselves.
The real question is will they hire me, and no, they won't :weep:
You should toss them a resume just in case.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 17, 2015, 05:25:44 AM
You should toss them a resume just in case.
I don't even have a permit to work in the US. The chance of them hiring me is so remote that it is not worth it to send the email.
Not that they will hire me even if I have a green card.
Quote from: Syt on August 17, 2015, 05:03:36 AM
It's a pretty long article, so I won't quote it here; but it is very interesting reading
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html
It boils down to measuring everyone's performance non-stop, leading to performance reviews with dozens of pages of metrics on which you can be quizzed. Generally, it's expected that you're available (and working) for the company at any time, be it vacation or off time. Little things like cancer or miscarriage shouldn't let you lose your focus. Meetings are open and frank, and it's generally preferred that you attack someone's idea than seek a compromise, the idea being that this conflict and constant second guessing will produce the most robust/correct decisions.
At the same time, there's doubtless people who thrive in this environment, who see it as a challenge and a way to excel/grow. And Amazon is pretty up front that they're not an employer for everyone and that people will either love or hate working there.
Me, I think life is too short for this kind of bullshit. :P
It sounds a lot like my current work so if they paid me more, sure why not. :P
I like feedback and measuring myself against others, and I am anyway expected to be able to respond to emails on vacation or during weekends and holidays, so do not see this as a significant downside.
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 05:32:23 AM
It sounds a lot like my current work so if they paid me more, sure why not. :P
:worthy:
Depends on how much they would pay.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 17, 2015, 05:30:10 AM
I don't even have a permit to work in the US. The chance of them hiring me is so remote that it is not worth it to send the email.
Not that they will hire me even if I have a green card.
https://www.linkedin.com/job/amazon/jobs-china/?trk=old_jserp_redirect (https://www.linkedin.com/job/amazon/jobs-china/?trk=old_jserp_redirect) :P
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 17, 2015, 05:57:29 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on August 17, 2015, 05:30:10 AM
I don't even have a permit to work in the US. The chance of them hiring me is so remote that it is not worth it to send the email.
Not that they will hire me even if I have a green card.
https://www.linkedin.com/job/amazon/jobs-china/?trk=old_jserp_redirect (https://www.linkedin.com/job/amazon/jobs-china/?trk=old_jserp_redirect) :P
Most of the positions advertisied are technology-related. As expected, my government experience won't translate to a technology and sales oriented for-profit company.
Plus, I assume that the work culture as described in the article mainly applies to Amazon's US HQs.
If you're truly unhappy with your current job, you should be applying elsewhere. Sure, most of them will turn you down, but it only takes one acceptance to get a new job. :contract:
(Though I don't think you are that unhappy, you just don't like to let on how much you enjoy bossing around your underlings and jet-setting around the world. ;))
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 17, 2015, 06:17:34 AM
If you're truly unhappy with your current job, you should be applying elsewhere. Sure, most of them will turn you down, but it only takes one acceptance to get a new job. :contract:
(Though I don't think you are that unhappy, you just don't like to let on how much you enjoy bossing around your underlings and jet-setting around the world. ;))
Well I do have a pension as a job benefit, and how much pension I'll get is directly linked with my length of service. There is of course the small issue that I won't be able to find a job elsewhere. I can't programme, can't change a light bulb, can't run, can't do mathematics, etc :cry:
The rest of your post is unsubstantiated speculation :P
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2015, 05:32:23 AMIt sounds a lot like my current work so if they paid me more, sure why not. :P
I like feedback and measuring myself against others, and I am anyway expected to be able to respond to emails on vacation or during weekends and holidays, so do not see this as a significant downside.
I think there may be one major difference between your work and the (majority of) jobs at Amazon: Amazon is all about becoming as efficient as possible and giving you stretch goals every day to improve their performance.
I understand that lawyers can work long and hard, but generally it's about making sure your clients get the representation they require, not so much about optimizing yourself and your lawyering processes (not saying it's not happening, but I'm not sure if that is the or even a major item on your agenda).
Quote from: Syt on August 17, 2015, 06:45:27 AM
I understand that lawyers can work long and hard, but generally it's about making sure your clients get the representation they require, not so much about optimizing yourself and your lawyering processes (not saying it's not happening, but I'm not sure if that is the or even a major item on your agenda).
You would be surprised. Not just in my firm, but in pretty much all international law firms, we are constantly under pressure for meeting key performance targets such as utilization (the number of hours billed) and recovery (the amount the firm actually recovers per your our billed, expressed as percentage of your standard billing rate). You are also expected to be efficient (that is why a lot of investment is put into automatisation, outsourcing and templates these days), and to a varying degree bring in work (i.e. devote your "free", non-billable time to business developments, relationship meetings with clients and the like).
And in consultancies such as PWC or EY this is much much worse. My colleague worked for a while for a EY law firm (the big four are now starting those so they can do some of their legal work in house). At my level of seniority, he was not expected to actually do any legal work at all - just supervise, manage his underlings, get work from clients and optimise the efficiency of his group.
And I am not even talking about partners here.
I am guessing the average lawyer at a big firm gets paid rather more than a warehouse staffer at Amazon.
Quote from: Warspite on August 17, 2015, 07:12:52 AM
I am guessing the average lawyer at a big firm gets paid rather more than a warehouse staffer at Amazon.
I'd be willing to wager that's true.
Amazon's just another employer determined to cut costs and generally suck the life out of their employees. The word "sweatshop" somehow sprung to mind.
It is kind of too bad we cannot have a culture like that working towards things more important than delivering retail shit to people. I mean why does it matter I got my gizmo in two days instead of four? It is not like Amazon is delivering emergency medical products.
Quote from: Valmy on August 17, 2015, 07:55:07 AM
It is kind of too bad we cannot have a culture like that working towards things more important than delivering retail shit to people. I mean why does it matter I got my gizmo in two days instead of four? It is not like Amazon is delivering emergency medical products.
Because we can't have nice things in the world of employment.
You're either a bored-out-your-skull public employee or you work for a vampiric cult determined to turn your intestines and brain into profit.
A consultant who used to work for me moved to Seattle about five years ago and landed a job at Amazon, and all of this in the article sounds very familiar to me based on her feedback. :sleep:
She now works for the Gates Foundation. She was at Amazon less than a year IIRC.
A short follow up from the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/technology/amazon-bezos-workplace-management-practices.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
QuoteAmazon's Jeff Bezos Defends Workplace in Response to Article
Amazon said late Sunday that it would not tolerate the "shockingly callous management practices" described in an article in The New York Times over the weekend. Jeff Bezos, the retail giant's founder and chief executive, said he did not recognize the workplace portrayed in the article and urged any employees who knew of "stories like those reported" to contact him directly.
"Even if it's rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero," Mr. Bezos said in an email circulated to all the retailer's employees.
The article gave accounts of workers who suffered from cancer, miscarriages and other personal crises who said they had been evaluated unfairly or edged out rather than given time to recover in Amazon's intense and fast-paced workplace.
Mr. Bezos wrote that he "very much" hoped workers did not recognize the workplace depicted in the article — "a soulless, dystopian workplace where no fun is had and no laughter heard."
At Amazon, the article said, the winners get the thrill of testing new projects with hundreds of millions of customers. They also become rich through a stock that has increased tenfold since 2008. But the losers are pushed out in regular cullings. One former Amazon human resources director called it "purposeful Darwinism."
Amazon declined a request to interview Mr. Bezos for the original article, but made several executives available. Over all, The Times interviewed over 100 current and former Amazon employees, including many who spoke on the record and some who requested anonymity because they had signed agreements saying they would not speak to the press.
Mr. Bezos urged his 180,000 employees to give the Times article "a careful read" but said it "doesn't describe the Amazon I know or the caring Amazonians I work with every day."
Amazon and Mr. Bezos have also circulated an account on LinkedIn by Nick Ciubotariu, an Amazon engineer and manager, describing his 18 months of experience at the company.
Like many of the Amazon employees quoted in The Times article, Mr. Ciubotariu describes strengths of the workplace, including focus on customers and innovation. However, some of his assertions were incorrect, including a statement that the company does not cull employees on an annual basis. An Amazon spokesman previously confirmed that the company manages out a pre-determined percentage of its workforce every year. The engineer also quotes an unnamed senior executive telling an all-hands meeting, "Amazon used to burn a lot of people into the ground."
The text of Mr. Bezos's letter:
Dear Amazonians,
If you haven't already, I encourage you to give this (very long) New York Times article a careful read: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html
I also encourage you to read this very different take by a current Amazonian: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/amazonians-response-inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-nick-ciubotariu
Here's why I'm writing you. The NYT article prominently features anecdotes describing shockingly callous management practices, including people being treated without empathy while enduring family tragedies and serious health problems. The article doesn't describe the Amazon I know or the caring Amazonians I work with every day. But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at [email protected]. Even if it's rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero.
The article goes further than reporting isolated anecdotes. It claims that our intentional approach is to create a soulless, dystopian workplace where no fun is had and no laughter heard. Again, I don't recognize this Amazon and I very much hope you don't, either. More broadly, I don't think any company adopting the approach portrayed could survive, much less thrive, in today's highly competitive tech hiring market. The people we hire here are the best of the best. You are recruited every day by other world-class companies, and you can work anywhere you want.
I strongly believe that anyone working in a company that really is like the one described in the NYT would be crazy to stay. I know I would leave such a company.
But hopefully, you don't recognize the company described. Hopefully, you're having fun working with a bunch of brilliant teammates, helping invent the future, and laughing along the way.
Thank you,
Jeff
I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.
Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle, and honestly, I would not want a job where the expectation is that the job is that high a priority in my life compared to all other activities I am involved in - like family (of course), but also officiating and other hobbies. I don't think a high pressure job like Amazon would fit with my personal priorities.
Articles like this tend to take a kernel of truth and exaggerate them for effect, and provide only a singular view in order to construct the narrative desired. I don't doubt that Amazon is pretty hard core, but as Bezo's said, it can't be anywhere near as bad as the article makes out. Tech people are notoriously dickish about simply moving along if they don't like the way they are being treated.
Quote from: Warspite on August 17, 2015, 07:12:52 AM
I am guessing the average lawyer at a big firm gets paid rather more than a warehouse staffer at Amazon.
I had an impression this article was not about warehouse staffers but about mid-management. I doubt many warehouse staffers attend a lot out-of-town business meetings, for example, or are expected to answer emails over weekends.
You're right, I should have read the article before replying. :blush:
That said, I know the warehouse staff are worked rather hard too (as in, given physical distance targets measured through tracking devices).
I guess Amazon must pay well enough to attract these people.
In some places there is a lot of competition for Amazon warehouse jobs. I know a couple people who work or have worked there and they had no complaints above the standard "work sucks" one.
Quote from: Berkut on August 17, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.
Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,
What is wrong with you?!??!
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 17, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.
Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,
What is wrong with you?!??!
???
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2015, 01:21:43 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 17, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.
Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,
What is wrong with you?!??!
???
We already know what is wrong with you.
Seattle is a nice place to visit.
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2015, 01:21:43 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 17, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.
Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,
What is wrong with you?!??!
???
We already know what is wrong with you.
Yeah, I choose to live in better cities.
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
What is wrong with you?!??!
I don't know about Berk, but I am rather attached to the East Coast. I am currently as far west as I care to go, and really don't want to move due north either.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 17, 2015, 01:25:59 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
What is wrong with you?!??!
I don't know about Berk, but I am rather attached to the East Coast. I am currently as far west as I care to go, and really don't want to move due north either.
What is wrong with you?!??!
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2015, 01:21:43 PM
Quote from: katmai on August 17, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on August 17, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
I get calls from Amazon recruiters pretty regularly - like once every 4 months or so.
Since I am currently looking for a new position, it would be tempting to consider, but I don't want to move to Seattle,
What is wrong with you?!??!
???
We already know what is wrong with you.
Yeah, I choose to live in better cities.
Wow.
Just wow.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 17, 2015, 01:25:59 PM
I don't know about Berk, but I am rather attached to the East Coast. I am currently as far west as I care to go, and really don't want to move due north either.
:hmm: Can't understand that mentality. I love the West Coast. Would move there in a heartbeat if it made financial sense and I didn't have compelling family reasons not to.
Quote from: Warspite on August 17, 2015, 10:24:24 AM
You're right, I should have read the article before replying. :blush:
That said, I know the warehouse staff are worked rather hard too (as in, given physical distance targets measured through tracking devices).
I guess Amazon must pay well enough to attract these people.
You guess wrong. The warehouse people make barely more than minimum wage. The major facility near where I live is the one whose workers sued the company a while back to be paid for all the time they spend going through security screenings. Like a half hour a day or so. Remember that?
I have hired several people out of Amazon who just wanted out and were completely burnt. Nearly all of them were extremely good hires, who, if you don't burn them out, will give you many years of exceptional productivity. Treating people like that is not profitable in the long run. But hey, I got the benefit of their mistake.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2015, 03:33:46 PM
I have hired several people out of Amazon who just wanted out and were completely burnt. Nearly all of them were extremely good hires, who, if you don't burn them out, will give you many years of exceptional productivity. Treating people like that is not profitable in the long run. But hey, I got the benefit of their mistake.
They are capitalizing on their reputation to draw people in. It's just like the game studios: so many people want to work there that they can get away with treating them like shit and burning them out because there is always fresh meat to be had. Law, finance, and the other industries famous for this type of shit have the same deep pipelines.
Thing is, this intensifying negative publicity is going to kill Amazon in the long run, because they have competition for their talent from many other, saner companies. Too much of this and their talent pipeline will dry up
I've definitely heard a lot in the past about the warehouses being horrible. Iirc there was a bbc or channel 4 documentary not too long ago where someone went undercover in one.
First big negatives I've heard of the offices though. Does seem rather horrid.
Though from all I've heard Seattle seems to be one of the top 5 or 6 places in the US to me. A bit freakishly far from home but I could do it.
Hell no. That kind of environment would not bring out the best in me. I would not be a good worker, and I would not be a good person.
I have no problem with telling others their ideas suck; I would pay for the privilege.
I have no problem with constant measurement of performance, as long as the activity they're measuring is rational.
I don't mind pulling long hours to meet a crazy deadline every once in a while, it can be kind of fun sometimes. But I couldn't do it all the time.
I'll work for anyone who will hire me.
How much radioactivity do they handle?
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 17, 2015, 03:45:42 PM
They are capitalizing on their reputation to draw people in.
That won't last much longer. Bezos is a dick, and I stopped buying from Amazon more than a year ago.
Fuck that company and their libertarian CEO.
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
Do they ship them to you live so you can get the thrill of hte kill? The self-hatred fades as you snuff the life from the little fluff ball, and you feel the exultation that only killing can give you. Though it can't match that of the timet hat that stupid bitch just wouldn't move out of the way of you car fast enough. You are one sick bastard.
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
It is well-known you are a Grade A cunt, so sure, why not.
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 05:29:49 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
It is well-known you are a Grade A cunt, so sure, why not.
Wow.
Just wow.
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 05:29:49 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
It is well-known you are a Grade A cunt, so sure, why not.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FzZxzZ1GIn8Q%2Fhqdefault.jpg&hash=94b8b41ac20ee1f3b5d6e5b4c43e1375b93f56ce)
Hardly an escalation. Calling people cunts is less serious than killing kittens, guys.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 17, 2015, 06:14:47 PM
Hardly an escalation. Calling people cunts is less serious than killing kittens, guys.
None of the kittens are Norgy's, I would presume, unless Brain is online shopping while visiting Norway. So it has been a rather unprovoked attack on Norgy's part.
So would you say if they're not your own kittens, that they're disposable? :yeahright:
I recently worked in a similar 24/7 corporate culture, albeit on a small business scale. I got what I needed and bolted after 9 months. Crazy that I had co-workers who bought into the whole corporate "mission", midnight emails/calls, working vacations, etc; all the while the Founder/CEO had 100% ownership. :D
Most the employees were under age 40, but they should still know better, especially the ones with kids. I still have access to their work online status and see them working Saturday nights and Sundays. :(
Quote from: Phillip V on August 17, 2015, 06:55:26 PM
I recently worked in a similar 24/7 corporate culture, albeit on a small business scale. I got what I needed and bolted after 9 months. Crazy that I had co-workers who bought into the whole corporate "mission", midnight emails/calls, working vacations, etc; all the while the Founder/CEO had 100% ownership. :D
Most the employees were under age 40, but they should still know better, especially the ones with kids. I still have access to their work online status and see them working Saturday nights and Sundays. :(
A few broken marriages and children who know them as strangers will snap them back to reality. TOo late, but back none the less.
I rarely buy stuff online, but Amazon is an exception. From a customer point of view, I have to say their whole operation is very well managed. The website is intuitive, easy to use, and everything works. All the trades and deliveries are honoured, and the deliveries are almost always ahead of schedule. I consider it my last and best hope of getting hard-to-find music. The US$20 shipping costs suck, but hey I have bought some US$1 CDs.
Eh it needed to be said. Clear the air!
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on August 17, 2015, 03:45:42 PM
They are capitalizing on their reputation to draw people in.
That won't last much longer. Bezos is a dick, and I stopped buying from Amazon more than a year ago.
Fuck that company and their libertarian CEO.
Meh. At least he is kinda impressive, as unlike most libertarians he is successful and accomplished. And I love the fact that I can order a book from Amazon this afternoon and, provided I am prepared to pay a fast delivery fee, have it delivered following morning from a warehouse in Milan. Would not mind having them in my client portfolio.
Quote from: Norgy on August 17, 2015, 05:29:49 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
It is well-known you are a Grade A cunt, so sure, why not.
Brain is my favourite poster and it is known he kills the kittens with kindness.
Quote from: Phillip V on August 17, 2015, 06:55:26 PM
I recently worked in a similar 24/7 corporate culture, albeit on a small business scale. I got what I needed and bolted after 9 months. Crazy that I had co-workers who bought into the whole corporate "mission", midnight emails/calls, working vacations, etc; all the while the Founder/CEO had 100% ownership. :D
Most the employees were under age 40, but they should still know better, especially the ones with kids. I still have access to their work online status and see them working Saturday nights and Sundays. :(
That's why you don't hire people with kids. :secret:
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 02:23:00 AM
Meh. At least he is kinda impressive, as unlike most libertarians he is successful and accomplished. And I love the fact that I can order a book from Amazon this afternoon and, provided I am prepared to pay a fast delivery fee, have it delivered following morning from a warehouse in Milan. Would not mind having them in my client portfolio.
Meh. I can order a book from my local bookstore this afternoon and, provided I am prepared to pay a fast delivery fee, have it delivered this afternoon. Granted, the book will be much less exotic not having come from Milan, but I think I can live with that.
The only thing I use Amazon for is keeping an extensive wish list for books that I'll then buy from actual bookstores.
Local bookstores very rarely carry books I need.
Obviously, I use Amazon for ordering books in English, so already this makes them much harder to find in Warsaw, even in shops that carry foreign books. On top of that, I do not read a lot of fiction or bestsellers, so I am usually looking for very specific specialist books on topics I am interested in at a given moment (and ones that might have been published many years ago). Amazon is peerless in that.
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 02:55:13 AM
Local bookstores very rarely carry books I need.
Obviously, I use Amazon for ordering books in English, so already this makes them much harder to find in Warsaw, even in shops that carry foreign books. On top of that, I do not read a lot of fiction or bestsellers, so I am usually looking for very specific specialist books on topics I am interested in at a given moment (and ones that might have been published many years ago). Amazon is peerless in that.
That is true, although I'm surprised how many books my bookstore can get from their depot. I read almost exclusively non-Dutch, and often the more obscure non-fiction kind.
Amazon is peerless, which is why I keep my wish list there. Buying from them is just not as satisfying to me.
I do buy out of print books from Abebooks, which is owned by Amazon.
The biggest problem with online purchases is delivery. Home delivery just doesn't work in this day and age, with long working hours. An emerging solution that is already starting to happen is a distributed system of mini-logistics centres that are close to the customers and have long opening hours. The 7-11s near my home are willing to take delivery for me to pick up. The main problem with them is that (1) they are only willing to take small packages and (2) they only work with one or two delivery companies, and Amazon is not one of them. Given time, if these centres become more sophisticated, retail shopping will no doubt decline further.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 18, 2015, 04:30:02 AM
The biggest problem with online purchases is delivery. Home delivery just doesn't work in this day and age, with long working hours. An emerging solution that is already starting to happen is a distributed system of mini-logistics centres that are close to the customers and have long opening hours. The 7-11s near my home are willing to take delivery for me to pick up. The main problem with them is that (1) they are only willing to take small packages and (2) they only work with one or two delivery companies, and Amazon is not one of them. Given time, if these centres become more sophisticated, retail shopping will no doubt decline further.
They just leave packages for me at the reception in my apartment building. But Poland now has this largely popular system of pack-o-mats where you can essentially collect your package from an automated "vending machine" located near your home, by entering the PIN code given to you by the supplier. These things are growing in popularity and already are located at many street corners in big cities.
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 04:34:32 AM
They just leave packages for me at the reception in my apartment building. But Poland now has this largely popular system of pack-o-mats where you can essentially collect your package from an automated "vending machine" located near your home, by entering the PIN code given to you by the supplier. These things are growing in popularity and already are located at many street corners in big cities.
The management company of my housing estate is not willing to take delivery. They are really worried about being accused of losing packages. They also won't let the delivery people dump the packages in front of my door. So I have to be at home when the delivery people come, and that's just not possible.
That vending machine idea sounds fantastic. I have yet to see them though.
I generally get all my packages at work but then for big deliveries just work from home that day. :o
Yeah, my management company is relatively new (the building was only settled 3 years ago, with most people moving in during the last 1-2 years) so probably they didn't get any major charges yet - I expect them to change that after a while.
Fortunately, for the time being at least I work about 5 minutes' walk from my flat, so when I need to collect the package in person I can ask them to call me when they deliver and get home before they do.
The "vending machine" thingies are indeed a very interesting innovation - the guy who started the company doing that is winning all kinds of awards for new businesses. Apparently, the working conditions in package sorting warehouses of this company are comparable to those in Amazon warehouses, though. :P
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 04:40:19 AM
I generally get all my packages at work but then for big deliveries just work from home that day. :o
Working from home is not an option in my job. I can tell Amazon to send a CD to my workplace. That works. It is less practical to tell the supermarket to deliver the 100 rolls of toilet paper, 100 bottles of water, 10kg of washing powder, and 50 boxes of tissue to my workplace. I will be talked about behind people's backs for years :blush:
Quote from: Monoriu on August 18, 2015, 04:43:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 04:40:19 AM
I generally get all my packages at work but then for big deliveries just work from home that day. :o
Working from home is not an option in my job. I can tell Amazon to send a CD to my workplace. That works. It is less practical to tell the supermarket to deliver the 100 rolls of toilet paper, 100 bottles of water, 10kg of washing powder, and 50 boxes of tissue to my workplace. I will be talked about behind people's backs for years :blush:
Oh, wouldn't stuff like that be delivered by a local supermarket, though? In which case I assume you can specify the hour of delivery (at least that's how it works in Warsaw). I get most of my groceries delivered between 8 and 10 p.m. on weekdays.
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 04:42:56 AM
Yeah, my management company is relatively new (the building was only settled 3 years ago, with most people moving in during the last 1-2 years) so probably they didn't get any major charges yet - I expect them to change that after a while.
I am perfectly happy to pay a reasonable fee if the management company is willing to take delivery. That's a very valuable service to me and will solve lots of problems. The problem however is not money. They are worried about being sued. "What if we lose a package of diamonds? What if somebody else along the delivery chain screw up and we get the blame? What if..." That's what's in their minds. That's not going to be solved by charging people fees.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 18, 2015, 04:48:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 04:42:56 AM
Yeah, my management company is relatively new (the building was only settled 3 years ago, with most people moving in during the last 1-2 years) so probably they didn't get any major charges yet - I expect them to change that after a while.
I am perfectly happy to pay a reasonable fee if the management company is willing to take delivery. That's a very valuable service to me and will solve lots of problems. The problem however is not money. They are worried about being sued. "What if we lose a package of diamonds? What if somebody else along the delivery chain screw up and we get the blame? What if..." That's what's in their minds. That's not going to be solved by charging people fees.
I meant charges as in being sued. I get their point. :)
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 04:46:04 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on August 18, 2015, 04:43:47 AM
Quote from: garbon on August 18, 2015, 04:40:19 AM
I generally get all my packages at work but then for big deliveries just work from home that day. :o
Working from home is not an option in my job. I can tell Amazon to send a CD to my workplace. That works. It is less practical to tell the supermarket to deliver the 100 rolls of toilet paper, 100 bottles of water, 10kg of washing powder, and 50 boxes of tissue to my workplace. I will be talked about behind people's backs for years :blush:
Oh, wouldn't stuff like that be delivered by a local supermarket, though? In which case I assume you can specify the hour of delivery (at least that's how it works in Warsaw). I get most of my groceries delivered between 8 and 10 p.m. on weekdays.
:yes:
Also, Amazon is starting to work on (I know of New York and London) deliveries in particular small windows of time.
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 04:46:04 AM
Oh, wouldn't stuff like that be delivered by a local supermarket, though? In which case I assume you can specify the hour of delivery (at least that's how it works in Warsaw). I get most of my groceries delivered between 8 and 10 p.m. on weekdays.
It depends on the retailer. If a retailer is large enough to have its own delivery team and fleet, they maybe willing to deliver after 8pm on weekdays. But most are not. Most retailers rely on delivery companies, and the delivery companies won't let people specify times. Well I can specify times but they never follow them. They just assume there is somebody at my home and they can come any time they want. If they fail to deliver, they'll simply try again later in the week. To save cost, they'll always follow their own route that is most convenient to them and ignore customer designated times. That works for families with a stay-home mother, a grandparent, a retiree, or a live-in maid. But not me.
I am surprised by this, Mono. I always think that Poland is relatively near the end of the spectrum when it comes to level of service, and Hong Kong being a financial center would be more accomodating for people who work. Here, all major retail grocery/supermarket chains (including the upmarket ones) have their own delivery service and you can specify delivery hours with no problem. They are also very responsive in terms of delivery timing (so, until app. 3 p.m. I can order a delivery for the same evening).
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 05:28:11 AM
I am surprised by this, Mono. I always think that Poland is relatively near the end of the spectrum when it comes to level of service, and Hong Kong being a financial center would be more accomodating for people who work. Here, all major retail grocery/supermarket chains (including the upmarket ones) have their own delivery service and you can specify delivery hours with no problem. They are also very responsive in terms of delivery timing (so, until app. 3 p.m. I can order a delivery for the same evening).
The delivery companies cater to majority demand. They are right - the majority of households have somebody at home during normal business hours in weekdays. It only costs US$400-500 per month to hire a full time live-in maid, and there are like 300,000 of them here. A lot of women don't work to take care of children. Even if they work, they tend to do less time-consuming jobs. The households without children, without live-in maids, without grandparents, where both husband and wife have full time office jobs are definitely in the minority. I often get amazed reactions when I tell people that we are both office drones.
You guys are weird. I thought HK was more Westernized than that.
Quote from: Martinus on August 18, 2015, 05:44:37 AM
You guys are weird. I thought HK was more Westernized than that.
It's the worst of both worlds.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 17, 2015, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
Do they ship them to you live so you can get the thrill of hte kill? The self-hatred fades as you snuff the life from the little fluff ball, and you feel the exultation that only killing can give you. Though it can't match that of the timet hat that stupid bitch just wouldn't move out of the way of you car fast enough. You are one sick bastard.
:blush:
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on August 17, 2015, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
Everytime I shop at Amazon I kill a kitten.
Do they ship them to you live so you can get the thrill of hte kill? The self-hatred fades as you snuff the life from the little fluff ball, and you feel the exultation that only killing can give you. Though it can't match that of the timet hat that stupid bitch just wouldn't move out of the way of you car fast enough. You are one sick bastard.
:o You capture that feeling just right, it's so freaky.
You'll soon be able to have packages delivered to the trunk of your car. The delivery person will be able to open it via mobile phone.
Quote from: Zanza on August 18, 2015, 12:15:19 PM
You'll soon be able to have packages delivered to the trunk of your car. The delivery person will be able to open it via mobile phone.
Owning a car? How provincial.
Quote from: Zanza on August 18, 2015, 12:15:19 PM
You'll soon be able to have packages delivered to the trunk of your car. The delivery person will be able to open it via mobile phone.
Great, now I'll have to remove the dead hooker before I go to bed. :mad:
Quote from: Zanza on August 18, 2015, 12:15:19 PM
You'll soon be able to have packages delivered to the trunk of your car. The delivery person will be able to open it via mobile phone.
Now that's a really cool idea. I of course would love to see it happen. Still, it is a question mark if the management company will let these guys through.
Quote
What Jeff Bezos learned from Chairman Mao
By Andre Spicer
"Andre Spicer is a professor of organizational behavior at Cass Business School, City University London. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the author. "
(CNN)By now, you may have heard that Amazon is where "overachievers go to feel bad about themselves."
It's not surprising when so many bright people join the world's biggest online retailer. But what's surprising is the extent to which a company can be so soul-crushing.
The company's modus operandi is "purposeful Darwinism," according a recent in-depth New York Times article. Insights collected from more than a hundred former and current employees suggest that Amazon is a brutal workplace where taking weekends and evenings off, not working during holidays, or receiving some slack after a serious illness seem to be a problem.
Jeff Bezos, the company's founder and CEO, has responded to the Times article by saying, "I don't recognize this Amazon."
Bezos likes to portray Amazon as a machine for creating the future. This might be so. But like any vision of the future, it has some striking similarities to the past.
Amazon uses techniques that eerily resemble some of the tactics that Mao Zedong used during the Cultural Revolution in China.
Central to Amazon's performance management system is a process of continuous feedback and harsh criticism. Employees are given information about their performance using hundreds of metrics, and they have to submit themselves to barrages of criticism. Sometimes, employees are encouraged to submit praise or criticism of their co-workers to management through the Anytime Feedback Tool. Employees are even asked to critique their own performance.
Now, when we think about Chairman Mao, the image that comes to mind is his little red book, which was distributed all over China as a means of influence. While the book's slogans served to turn skeptics into ardent supporters, it was Mao's creation of a system of self-criticisms that made the Cultural Revolution so chilling.
Mao's system was based on simple principles. First, you encouraged any grievances against people who did not follow the Communist Party line. For instance, if you had a minor conflict with the local landlord, this flame was fanned. There were also intense group discussions where people were encouraged to expose all their inner thoughts and feelings. During these sessions, people were prodded to relentlessly criticize themselves and others.
When group members did expose themselves to criticism, leaders rewarded them. The small groups also served as a venue for people to relate Maoist ideology to their own lives. Behind all this lurked an unmistakable threat: If you did not follow the program, you would be expelled from the party. It also led to paralyzing factional struggles, public humiliation, shocking abuses of human rights and an overwhelming cult of personality around Mao.
If we consider the stories about life inside of Amazon, it seems as though Bezos may have unwittingly used some of Mao's ideas. Employees are told to forget the poor habits they learned from previous workplaces. There are intensive group discussions where employees are encouraged to tear apart their peers' ideas and engage in vocal self-criticism.
If people show they're willing to engage in this kind of process, they may be rewarded with positive performance appraisals by their managers. To fit in with this challenging culture, you need to buy into company doctrines such as the 14 Amazon leadership principles. You need to make them a central part of your life. Behind all this pressure is the constant threat that if you don't buy in, then you are likely to find yourself out of a job.
Clearly, there are also huge differences between Amazon and Mao's China. For one thing, the online retailer isn't anywhere close to violating human rights.
But Bezos and Mao have been amazingly successful with this recipe for converting people to their cause.
Bezos has built one of the world's most admired businesses. Mao created the world's largest modern state. The systems that both men produced have problems. Mao's Cultural Revolution profoundly damaged a generation of Chinese people. Amazon has created, according to reports, a cadre of conformist "Ambots" and nasty "Amholes."
We must remember that Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution eventually gave way to its "great opening-up" and reforms under Deng Xiaoping. The big question is: Who will be Bezos's Deng?
An NYT follow up that concludes that even if the company were trying to implement kinder workplace conditions, the competition to work at high level jobs in coveted companies is so great that it would still be a highly demanding place to work at.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/business/work-policies-may-be-kinder-but-brutal-competition-isnt.html?ribbon-ad-idx=5&rref=business&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Business%20Day&pgtype=article
QuoteWork Policies May Be Kinder, but Brutal Competition Isn't
On Wall Street, in Silicon Valley, across the legal profession and the corporate world, a growing chorus of companies are singing the praises of a kinder workplace, announcing policies like generous maternity leave at Netflix, and Goldman Sachs's rule against investment-banking analysts working on Saturdays.
But a closer look at the forces that drive the relentless pace at elite companies suggests that — however much the most sought-after employers in the country may be changing their official policies — brutal competition remains an inescapable component of workers' daily lives. In some ways it's getting worse.
"Jimmy Carter tried to get a rule in place for his executive White House staff to be gone and having dinner with their family in the evening, and it broke down," said Robert H. Frank, a prominent economist at Cornell University who writes often for The New York Times. "In a competitive environment, that's what you get."
As Professor Frank, who has written a book about the phenomenon known as winner-take-all economics, explains, the basic problem is that the rewards for ascending to top jobs at companies like Netflix and Goldman Sachs are not just enormous, they are also substantially greater than at companies in the next tier down. As a result, far more people are interested in these jobs than there are available slots, leading to the brutal competition that plays out at companies where only the best are destined for partnerships or senior management positions.
This phenomenon was the focus of a recent New York Times article about workplace practices at Amazon. In the article, some current and former employees complained of 80-hour work weeks, interrupted vacations, co-worker sabotage and little tolerance even for those struggling with life-threatening illnesses or family tragedies. (Amazon has cast doubt on whether these practices are widespread at the company.)
The account appeared to put Amazon at odds with recent workplace trends, but the reality, experts say, is not nearly so neat: Grueling competition remains perhaps the defining feature of the upper echelon in today's white-collar workplace.
If anything, analysts point out, Amazon offers at least one major advantage over many other companies, which is that its founder and chief executive, Jeff Bezos, has created a culture in which employees typically know exactly where they stand. "It's a super attention-rich environment," said Marcus Buckingham, an author and founder of the firm TMBC, which advises large companies on employee evaluation and performance. "There's a lot of critical attention. They're almost never ignored."
The legal profession, one of the most brutal when it comes to pace and time commitment, illuminates the economic logic of a system where a large initial cohort of workers is gradually culled until only a small fraction are left. This small fraction then has access to the enormous wealth and prestige that survivors in this ultimate reality show are granted.
The so-called Cravath system, named after the prestigious New York law firm known today as Cravath, Swaine & Moore, began to be put in place in the early 20th century. The firm and its imitators hired a large class of entry-level associates from the top law schools in the country, then relentlessly sifted them out over a period of several years, at the end of which only the most brilliant and productive — historically about one in 10 or 15 — became partners.
Those who did not make partner got first-rate legal training along the way, though, and were almost always able to land respectable jobs at lesser firms or as in-house corporate lawyers. For Cravath, it was also a plus: The partners made good money billing out its associates at top-of-market rates.
Over the decades, an increasing number of young law school graduates have chafed at the punishing Cravath model. A recent report by the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California, Hastings College of the Law, cited survey data of big-firm lawyers showing work-life balance to be a top concern.
But because a partnership at the likes of Cravath, or Sullivan & Cromwell, remains such a coveted prize, the top firms can still count on a large surplus of young lawyers willing to defer their personal lives for the better part of a decade for a shot at a partnership.
"The model is alive and well and working wonderfully in major New York law firms," said William Henderson, an expert on law firm economics at the Indiana University Maurer School of Law. "You attract really ambitious people and thin them out."
The thinning process even has its own name among scholars of law firms: the tournament. "The tournament is designed to identify the owners of the firm and the people who will run major engagements, attract business," Professor Henderson said. "There is 15 to 20 percent of the law school population who want to play in that league."
Variations on the tournament are also the norm at elite management consulting firms and investment banks. It's one of the reasons that, when companies like Goldman Sachs and Bank of America Merrill Lynch adopted policies over the last few years that encourage young employees to spend more time away from work on the weekends, many skeptics rolled their eyes. As long as there are a large number of new employees competing for a limited number of highly lucrative positions, policy changes aren't likely to persuade many people to ease up.
The reality is not that different at many American corporations and technology companies that promote their employee-friendly practices.
Mr. Buckingham points out that companies like Microsoft may have made news in recent years by abandoning their "stack ranking" systems, in which managers produce detailed rankings of the members of their teams once a year, but they have not abandoned the practice of comparing employees to one another. They have simply tried to adopt less-biased systems for evaluating and promoting them.
"If the only way for me to get promoted is to suck up to a biased manager, I have to figure out any way I can to suck up," Mr. Buckingham said. "If you could remove the bias, I can find a reliable way to look at you."
Mr. Buckingham added that, in many cases, many of the overachievers who are candidates for upper management at companies like Amazon welcome the breakneck pace and unyielding expectations. They just want to know that the system will be meritocratic. "We don't mind competition," he said. "We mind unfair competition."
Even the steps that many tech companies take to make the workplace more engaging often result in employees spending more time consumed by their work. Increasingly popular workplace messaging programs like Slack and HipChat, for example, both increase the amount of casual, friendly interactions among co-workers, but these messaging systems may also have the effect of keeping employees on their computers or mobile devices at all hours of the day and night.
"We're constantly talking," said an editor at a digital media company who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid alienating his boss. "It does create a little more of an implicit pressure to be available."
But there are some signs of change, as more and more young highly credentialed workers acknowledge that they can't fulfill their responsibilities as husbands, wives, parents and friends while ascending through their organizations.
"Cultural change is a slog," said Stewart Friedman, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School who recently did a study comparing the views on work-life issues of Wharton graduates from 1992 with Wharton graduates from 2012. "There's been a genuine shift among workers. We as a society are struggling with this," he said.
As in previous decades, the legal profession may hint at what's to come. Alternative work arrangements are proliferating, and many previously elite firms are finding they no longer have the profits or the partnership slots to make the Cravath system work, abandoning the field of play to only a tiny number of ultrasuccessful firms.
"Amazon is at the top of the food chain," Professor Henderson said. "Maybe they can get away with it. But most firms can't rank and yank."
Maybe I'm just awfully European about this, but having no life in the work/life balance looks like a terrible way to go through life. It's possible to work hard but efficiently; have time to pause, consider and self-reflect; and achieve big things without working 18-hour days.
I work within the UK Prime Now purlieu, which is as close to a teleporter as you can get.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/b/ref=pn_uk_surl_lp?node=6584642031
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/b/ref=pn_uk_surl_lp?node=6584642031)
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 04:33:15 AM
Maybe I'm just awfully European about this, but having no life in the work/life balance looks like a terrible way to go through life. It's possible to work hard but efficiently; have time to pause, consider and self-reflect; and achieve big things without working 18-hour days.
I would say this depends on the industry.
For example, when you work in highly demanding service industry with clients located in all time zones, closing the shop at a given hour is simply not an option no matter how efficient you are.
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 04:33:15 AM
Maybe I'm just awfully European about this, but having no life in the work/life balance looks like a terrible way to go through life. It's possible to work hard but efficiently; have time to pause, consider and self-reflect; and achieve big things without working 18-hour days.
The company I work for has decided that it should no longer be called "Work/Life-Balance", but just "Life Balance" where work is just one of four components next to family&friends, health and lifelong learning. We have guidelines for managers called "Respect limits", "Switch off", "Conciously build in breaks" or "Reconcile work and private life".
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2015, 06:05:58 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 04:33:15 AM
Maybe I'm just awfully European about this, but having no life in the work/life balance looks like a terrible way to go through life. It's possible to work hard but efficiently; have time to pause, consider and self-reflect; and achieve big things without working 18-hour days.
The company I work for has decided that it should no longer be called "Work/Life-Balance", but just "Life Balance" where work is just one of four components next to family&friends, health and lifelong learning. We have guidelines for managers called "Respect limits", "Switch off", "Conciously build in breaks" or "Reconcile work and private life".
Well, I am glad this is at least becoming an option - until recently the expectation was that either you have no life or have a really shitty job (at least in Poland). It seems to me that now employers are consciously trying to create a more complete spectrum of choices.
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 07:01:31 AM
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2015, 06:05:58 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 04:33:15 AM
Maybe I'm just awfully European about this, but having no life in the work/life balance looks like a terrible way to go through life. It's possible to work hard but efficiently; have time to pause, consider and self-reflect; and achieve big things without working 18-hour days.
The company I work for has decided that it should no longer be called "Work/Life-Balance", but just "Life Balance" where work is just one of four components next to family&friends, health and lifelong learning. We have guidelines for managers called "Respect limits", "Switch off", "Conciously build in breaks" or "Reconcile work and private life".
Well, I am glad this is at least becoming an option - until recently the expectation was that either you have no life or have a really shitty job (at least in Poland). It seems to me that now employers are consciously trying to create a more complete spectrum of choices.
Or at least pretend to. In a way I admire Amazon's honesty. Look at Disney. Overnight they go from writing awesome performance reviews and discussing promotions to telling the same over achievers they are going to be training their offshored replacements.
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 05:36:32 AM
For example, when you work in highly demanding service industry with clients located in all time zones, closing the shop at a given hour is simply not an option no matter how efficient you are.
Sure, but what puts me off is industries where the expectation is to be frantic all the time, without relenting. The work I do can get pretty manic - 18 hour days, reams and reams of material to go through, and everything having to be done yesterday because CRISIS!!11 - but we're never expected to just look busy, being present for the sake of being present, so on and so forth.
One has to wonder what this frantic pace actually achieves. More than once, my girlfriend who is an associate at a magic circle firm has been given an zOMG URGENT TASK on Saturday night that a client absolutely desperately needs for Monday morning, only for her to deliver on time and then have the final result sat on for a week - with the e-mail unread.
I'm not saying there are not fast-paced industries, and I am not saying often the work isn't genuine, but I do wonder whether certain industries or hyper-competitive workplaces breed a culture of haste and mania. One of the most valuable skills I have learnt over the years is divining whether an urgent task is an urgent task or a whim, which so far has saved me a lot of weekends. :D
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 07:01:31 AM
Quote from: Zanza on August 19, 2015, 06:05:58 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 04:33:15 AM
Maybe I'm just awfully European about this, but having no life in the work/life balance looks like a terrible way to go through life. It's possible to work hard but efficiently; have time to pause, consider and self-reflect; and achieve big things without working 18-hour days.
The company I work for has decided that it should no longer be called "Work/Life-Balance", but just "Life Balance" where work is just one of four components next to family&friends, health and lifelong learning. We have guidelines for managers called "Respect limits", "Switch off", "Conciously build in breaks" or "Reconcile work and private life".
Well, I am glad this is at least becoming an option - until recently the expectation was that either you have no life or have a really shitty job (at least in Poland). It seems to me that now employers are consciously trying to create a more complete spectrum of choices.
If you want to be along the 2% of employees that make up the senior management and above, you'll have to work more and be available etc.
But these rules are meant to protect the other 98% of the workforce. Which covers all the expert white collar jobs, the lowest ranks of managers and even gives the more senior managers less incentive to overwork themselves add it slowly leads to a culture change here.
Next will be allowing more people to work mobile, so you can work at a time and place that is convenient. Our union will make sure this does not mean people work more.
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 08:27:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 05:36:32 AM
For example, when you work in highly demanding service industry with clients located in all time zones, closing the shop at a given hour is simply not an option no matter how efficient you are.
Sure, but what puts me off is industries where the expectation is to be frantic all the time, without relenting. The work I do can get pretty manic - 18 hour days, reams and reams of material to go through, and everything having to be done yesterday because CRISIS!!11 - but we're never expected to just look busy, being present for the sake of being present, so on and so forth.
One has to wonder what this frantic pace actually achieves. More than once, my girlfriend who is an associate at a magic circle firm has been given an zOMG URGENT TASK on Saturday night that a client absolutely desperately needs for Monday morning, only for her to deliver on time and then have the final result sat on for a week - with the e-mail unread.
I'm not saying there are not fast-paced industries, and I am not saying often the work isn't genuine, but I do wonder whether certain industries or hyper-competitive workplaces breed a culture of haste and mania. One of the most valuable skills I have learnt over the years is divining whether an urgent task is an urgent task or a whim, which so far has saved me a lot of weekends. :D
I think you are right, but also in service industries it is often difficult to have a position where you can ignore an important client's whims - and by the time you get to such a position, you are utterly used to not ignoring it, it is your second nature. The fact that the market for highest value services is very competitive tends to reinforce that.
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 04:33:15 AM
Maybe I'm just awfully European about this, but having no life in the work/life balance looks like a terrible way to go through life. It's possible to work hard but efficiently; have time to pause, consider and self-reflect; and achieve big things without working 18-hour days.
I think the key here is that Amazon wants people who are not interested in work-life balance, they want people who are consumed by and passionate about their work alone.
Color me amazed people can be that passionate about something as pointless as retail delivery. 'Somebody got their Disney doll quicker. My life is complete!'
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:24:29 AM
Color me amazed people can be that passionate about something as pointless as retail delivery. 'Somebody got their Disney doll quicker. My life is complete!'
There are people who are passionate about curling. Compared to that, Amazon must be a roller coaster of excitement.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:24:29 AM
Color me amazed people can be that passionate about something as pointless as retail delivery. 'Somebody got their Disney doll quicker. My life is complete!'
People can be passionate about making things run as efficiently as is in their control. And it does make the world a better place. Our 15 trillion dollar economy is based on tens of millions of human cogs in the machine doing the one very small part of theirs to the best of their ability.
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 10:28:11 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:24:29 AM
Color me amazed people can be that passionate about something as pointless as retail delivery. 'Somebody got their Disney doll quicker. My life is complete!'
There are people who are passionate about curling. Compared to that, Amazon must be a roller coaster of excitement.
Curling is serious business. :mad: :scots:
Quote from: DGuller on August 19, 2015, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:24:29 AM
Color me amazed people can be that passionate about something as pointless as retail delivery. 'Somebody got their Disney doll quicker. My life is complete!'
People can be passionate about making things run as efficiently as is in their control. And it does make the world a better place. Our 15 trillion dollar economy is based on tens of millions of human cogs in the machine doing the one very small part of theirs to the best of their ability.
I wonder if the assembly line workers for Henry Ford felt as inspired.
We laugh, but if for example you apply for a job in any menial sector in the UK now, on the application form you will be asked to demonstrate things like "Your passion for retail customer service".
Passionate persons eventually herd people into camps. Aloof detachment ftw.
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: DGuller on August 19, 2015, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 10:24:29 AM
Color me amazed people can be that passionate about something as pointless as retail delivery. 'Somebody got their Disney doll quicker. My life is complete!'
People can be passionate about making things run as efficiently as is in their control. And it does make the world a better place. Our 15 trillion dollar economy is based on tens of millions of human cogs in the machine doing the one very small part of theirs to the best of their ability.
I wonder if the assembly line workers for Henry Ford felt as inspired.
Probably not to that extreme level, but is it so weird to have pride in your work, even if it's an assembly line?
General Yamashita had the right idea.
See, I read an article like this and I don't think "ZOMG WHAT A BUNCH OF ASSHOLES!".
I think "Hey, I am super glad there are companies out there full of people who don't care about much beyond their job, who are really fucking good at what they do, and that makes my life better".
Now, I don't want to be one of those people by any means - I am in the vast maority of humans for whom work is a means to an end, rather than the end. But I also recognize that it is the driven few who really make change, especially in technology.
Go Amazon. Keep that insane culture working for as long as possible so I can get stuff I want super cheap and fast.
Just don't ask ME to work there. Fuck that.
Quote from: Habbaku on August 19, 2015, 12:00:11 PM
Probably not to that extreme level, but is it so weird to have pride in your work, even if it's an assembly line?
No. But having a passion to the extent you would sacrifice everything? I can see that happening for an incredibly important cause but for retail delivery?
Quote from: Valmy on August 19, 2015, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on August 19, 2015, 12:00:11 PM
Probably not to that extreme level, but is it so weird to have pride in your work, even if it's an assembly line?
No. But having a passion to the extent you would sacrifice everything? I can see that happening for an incredibly important cause but for retail delivery?
There's more to Amazon than retail delivery. For example I have interviewed with them several times for data science jobs. There's some interesting stuff going on there, but the pay is mediocre and the culture toxic.
Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2015, 08:27:49 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 19, 2015, 05:36:32 AM
For example, when you work in highly demanding service industry with clients located in all time zones, closing the shop at a given hour is simply not an option no matter how efficient you are.
Sure, but what puts me off is industries where the expectation is to be frantic all the time, without relenting. The work I do can get pretty manic - 18 hour days, reams and reams of material to go through, and everything having to be done yesterday because CRISIS!!11 - but we're never expected to just look busy, being present for the sake of being present, so on and so forth.
One has to wonder what this frantic pace actually achieves. More than once, my girlfriend who is an associate at a magic circle firm has been given an zOMG URGENT TASK on Saturday night that a client absolutely desperately needs for Monday morning, only for her to deliver on time and then have the final result sat on for a week - with the e-mail unread.
I'm not saying there are not fast-paced industries, and I am not saying often the work isn't genuine, but I do wonder whether certain industries or hyper-competitive workplaces breed a culture of haste and mania. One of the most valuable skills I have learnt over the years is divining whether an urgent task is an urgent task or a whim, which so far has saved me a lot of weekends. :D
I work in one of these fast-paced industries.
We go into an automotive plant during planned stops (usually holidays). Pick apart some huge set of machinery, then rebuild it according to new specs (better performance, easier maintenance, stricter safety regulations). Timings are tight, and every day start-up is delayed means a ton of money lost. It is REALLY easy for a company to go bankrupt if it chews more than it can swallow.
My employer is not unlike Amazon: Pretty toxic culture, 8+ months away from home per year, 55+ hours worked per week. Most people stay for a year or two, then move on with the experience acquired (which is something you can't train for anywhere).
Personally, I can't see how it is in any way beneficial for the company. Worker rotation is a pain in the arse when you need a year or two to make a decent employee out of someone. More if he or she doesn't have previous experience. The only ones who stay are mediocre or those who devote their whole life to work (who can't cope on their own).