I have been considering seriously going (lacto-ovo) vegetarian lately, so looking for some pointers/advice for a beginner. For the record, if I feel like shit after trying it, or otherwise realise it is bad for my health, I will switch back - but I have been having problems lately with justifying eating meat from ethical perspective (unless it really turns out I need it to live a healthy life).
I believe Ide only eats shrimp.
I lived semi-vegatarian when I was a student because it was way cheaper. No idea what lacto ovo is, but I've never heard that vegetarianism should be detrimental to your health if you eat varied (like you always should). Buy a recipe book.
Quote from: Liep on July 30, 2015, 02:35:59 AM
I lived semi-vegatarian when I was a student because it was way cheaper. No idea what lacto ovo is, but I've never heard that vegetarianism should be detrimental to your health if you eat varied (like you always should). Buy a recipe book.
Lacto-ovo means you eat dairy and eggs. I am also considering eating sea food. I guess I don't want to eat animals, if I would be unwilling to kill them with my own hands. I would have no problem killing a fish, but I would have a problem killing a cow.
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2015, 02:37:08 AMI would have no problem killing a fish, but I would have a problem killing a cow.
Fast for 3 days, that cow when you see it will make your mouth water at the thought of steak. Squeamishness goes away with hunger.
Lacto-ovo is perfectly doable and if you allow for seafood you're good to go, just start cooking up a storm and putting together recipes you like.
If there's sea food and/or fish it's not vegetarian. No big deal then.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 30, 2015, 04:50:50 AM
If there's sea food and/or fish it's not vegetarian. No big deal then.
It is, indeed, pescetarianism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism)
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2015, 02:37:08 AM
I guess I don't want to eat animals, if I would be unwilling to kill them with my own hands.
I'm not sure flies and mosquito's are that tasty.
Will you stop eating fried food outside the house. Because often you don't know which fat was used to fry. Also forget candy with gelatin or desserts with gelatin since it's made from pork. For soups you should also start worrying which stock or broth was used as basis. Some things to think about if you do it because of the ethics
Quote from: The Larch on July 30, 2015, 05:00:15 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 30, 2015, 04:50:50 AM
If there's sea food and/or fish it's not vegetarian. No big deal then.
It is, indeed, pescetarianism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism)
Good friend of mine follows that. I've never understood drawing a line between seafood/fish and land animals, though.
As if you couldn't be more insufferable, "lacto-ovo". ;)
Quote from: celedhring on July 30, 2015, 05:40:23 AM
Good friend of mine follows that. I've never understood drawing a line between seafood/fish and land animals, though.
Charisma.
Quote from: celedhring on July 30, 2015, 05:40:23 AM
Quote from: The Larch on July 30, 2015, 05:00:15 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 30, 2015, 04:50:50 AM
If there's sea food and/or fish it's not vegetarian. No big deal then.
It is, indeed, pescetarianism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism)
Good friend of mine follows that. I've never understood drawing a line between seafood/fish and land animals, though.
Well, as I said, I could kill a fish, but would feel bad killing a chicken or a cow. So while the ethics of this may be dodgy in abstracto, at least they seem non-hypocritical.
Quote from: Archy on July 30, 2015, 05:37:55 AM
Will you stop eating fried food outside the house. Because often you don't know which fat was used to fry. Also forget candy with gelatin or desserts with gelatin since it's made from pork. For soups you should also start worrying which stock or broth was used as basis. Some things to think about if you do it because of the ethics
Nah. I am not going to be fanatical/dogmatic about it - and it's not like I will make fuss if only meat products are available at a restaurant or while visiting someone, for example. I will just refrain from eating meat of animals (other than fish and seafood) to the extent I can help it.
In other words, I will take the same kind of ethical attitude towards this as I take towards most other moral principles.
Quote from: garbon on July 30, 2015, 05:54:19 AM
As if you couldn't be more insufferable, "lacto-ovo". ;)
:P
You won't eat a pig?
A pig would eat you.
Quote from: Archy on July 30, 2015, 05:37:55 AM
Will you stop eating fried food outside the house. Because often you don't know which fat was used to fry. Also forget candy with gelatin or desserts with gelatin since it's made from pork. For soups you should also start worrying which stock or broth was used as basis. Some things to think about if you do it because of the ethics
I once had a veggie GF and she would always ask me to sample food she wasn't sure about, so I could tell her if there was meat in it. It made me terribly nervous, it's not like I'm any kind of taste expert. I'm pretty sure I inadvertently fed her some meat broth at least once.
Quote from: celedhring on July 30, 2015, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Archy on July 30, 2015, 05:37:55 AM
Will you stop eating fried food outside the house. Because often you don't know which fat was used to fry. Also forget candy with gelatin or desserts with gelatin since it's made from pork. For soups you should also start worrying which stock or broth was used as basis. Some things to think about if you do it because of the ethics
I once had a veggie GF and she would always ask me to sample food she wasn't sure about, so I could tell her if there was meat in it. It made me terribly nervous, it's not like I'm any kind of taste expert. I'm pretty sure I inadvertently fed her some meat broth at least once.
My wife does that - make me taste her food - but for nuts; the stakes are higher though, because she has a serious allergy to 'em.
So meat is murder, fish is justifiable homicide?
You should really shun dairy if you're going veggie on ethical grounds. They slaughter calves to keep the mothers lactating, and they in turn are slaughtered when they've passed peak production, at five years or so out of a 30-year lifespan.
And even if you make sure your eggs are free-range, laying hens are slaughtered at the end of their useful lives.
All problems that will go away once we can 3-D print all of our food -_-
Quote from: Valmy on July 30, 2015, 08:07:33 AM
All problems that will go away once we can 3-D print all of our food -_-
Those who can afford the real stuff won't.
Ok then. The scale will be massively reduced.
How about lab-grown meat? Here's a fascinating insight from my favourite author:
http://www.foodprocessing-technology.com/features/featurelab-grown-meat-promises-burgers-without-the-bovine/ (http://www.foodprocessing-technology.com/features/featurelab-grown-meat-promises-burgers-without-the-bovine/)
A vegetarian? I would've expected you to become a humanitarian. ;)
Quote from: Brazen on July 30, 2015, 07:46:39 AM
So meat is murder, fish is justifiable homicide?
You should really shun dairy if you're going veggie on ethical grounds. They slaughter calves to keep the mothers lactating, and they in turn are slaughtered when they've passed peak production, at five years or so out of a 30-year lifespan.
And even if you make sure your eggs are free-range, laying hens are slaughtered at the end of their useful lives.
If he wants to avoid the factory farmed meat he could just switch out the supermarket pork and chicken with for instance lamb, goat, venison and beef. Maybe see if there's a local farmer's market where he can get free range eggs, chicken and pork. In and of itself being a veggie isn't more ethical if you help contribute to turning the entire planet into a giant wheat/soybean plantation. ^_^
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 30, 2015, 07:23:24 AM
You won't eat a pig?
A pig would eat you.
In college and shortly thereafter I went through a phase where I stayed away from pork and sometimes beef. Man, was that stupid.
Nope, don't get vegetarianism based on ethical grounds. The only reason the animals had a life at all is because they are food. The world goes vegan the pig/chicken/cow population drops to a fraction of what it is now. Is that good for the animals? I can see wanting to stick to free range/ethically raised animals, but not outright vegetarianism. There are many jobs that I depend on that I would not want to do. That doesn't mean I won't use the results of their labor due to personal preference to not do something "icky".
OTOH vegetarianism because of concerns over diet/environment/sustainability makes sense to me.
Quote from: Brazen on July 30, 2015, 08:34:22 AM
How about lab-grown meat? Here's a fascinating insight from my favourite author:
http://www.foodprocessing-technology.com/features/featurelab-grown-meat-promises-burgers-without-the-bovine/ (http://www.foodprocessing-technology.com/features/featurelab-grown-meat-promises-burgers-without-the-bovine/)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstream1.gifsoup.com%2Fview7%2F3763354%2Fmr-burns-excellent-o.gif&hash=6fd39eb9effb5a0df6799661d7a3e395f87b0399)
Quote from: frunk on July 30, 2015, 09:32:01 AM
Nope, don't get vegetarianism based on ethical grounds. The only reason the animals had a life at all is because they are food. The world goes vegan the pig/chicken/cow population drops to a fraction of what it is now. Is that good for the animals? I can see wanting to stick to free range/ethically raised animals, but not outright vegetarianism. There are many jobs that I depend on that I would not want to do. That doesn't mean I won't use the results of their labor due to personal preference to not do something "icky".
OTOH vegetarianism because of concerns over diet/environment/sustainability makes sense to me.
I don't see how you can reasonably hope to answer the question of whether it is better to be born or not.
Also, I think there is something to be said that the vast majority of food animals are handled in such a way that one thinks is cruel and thus one doesn't want to help support that.
I guess there could be, though I don't think Marti is thinking that, some sort of ethical concern over eating animals - in some sort of Jain type way.
I'm shocked that Mart would consider a course of action that takes him further from the gene pool.
I think it would be quite difficult to be a vegetarian in Poland.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2015, 06:58:48 AM
Quote from: celedhring on July 30, 2015, 05:40:23 AM
Good friend of mine follows that. I've never understood drawing a line between seafood/fish and land animals, though.
Charisma.
I draw a line between brains indisputably capable of feeling pain and ones that don't. All vertebrates are out, as are cephalopods. Other mollusks are in. I'm considering dropping crustaceans. I drink milk and eat eggs, although I guess I shouldn't. It would be very difficult to completely avoid dairy products however without essentially limiting my diet to food I prepared, mainly tofu and rice, especially since I dislike greens as well as many vegetables.
Besides ethical concerns, the other reason is that meat production is a monstrous source of greenhouse gas. It should be heavily constrained by the State for that purpose alone.
I'm looking forward to labgrown meat, although I question its footprint, too.
Quote from: garbon on July 30, 2015, 09:47:04 AM
I don't see how you can reasonably hope to answer the question of whether it is better to be born or not.
I don't have a problem with giving a being a life in order to figure out for themselves.
Quote from: garbon on July 30, 2015, 09:47:04 AM
Also, I think there is something to be said that the vast majority of food animals are handled in such a way that one thinks is cruel and thus one doesn't want to help support that.
Yeah, as I said I could see insisting on free range/ethically raised animals.
Quote from: garbon on July 30, 2015, 09:47:04 AM
I guess there could be, though I don't think Marti is thinking that, some sort of ethical concern over eating animals - in some sort of Jain type way.
Sure.
Quote from: Legbiter on July 30, 2015, 09:03:36 AM
Quote from: Brazen on July 30, 2015, 07:46:39 AM
So meat is murder, fish is justifiable homicide?
You should really shun dairy if you're going veggie on ethical grounds. They slaughter calves to keep the mothers lactating, and they in turn are slaughtered when they've passed peak production, at five years or so out of a 30-year lifespan.
And even if you make sure your eggs are free-range, laying hens are slaughtered at the end of their useful lives.
If he wants to avoid the factory farmed meat he could just switch out the supermarket pork and chicken with for instance lamb, goat, venison and beef. Maybe see if there's a local farmer's market where he can get free range eggs, chicken and pork. In and of itself being a veggie isn't more ethical if you help contribute to turning the entire planet into a giant wheat/soybean plantation. ^_^
Only if you accept the existence of, say, cows as a positive good, an axiom I don't think you can easily prove.
Quote from: frunk on July 30, 2015, 10:48:30 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 30, 2015, 09:47:04 AM
I don't see how you can reasonably hope to answer the question of whether it is better to be born or not.
I don't have a problem with giving a being a life in order to figure out for themselves.
We don't really have a good way though of determining what our livestock ultimately decide. ;)
Quote from: Ideologue on July 30, 2015, 10:43:09 AM
meat production is a monstrous source of greenhouse gas. It should be heavily constrained by the State for that purpose alone.
The carbon footprint of the wild animals, like elk or moose, deer or boar is rather heavy too. However, their existence alone keeps forests in reasonable shape. Grazing isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I'd rather go all in against private cars than meat.
For what it's worth, I work with an LT who is a lacto-ovo vegetarian (and a yoga instructor), and he easily maxes out our physical fitness tests (he is very much a slim build guy, not a muscle monster). So it should be possible to live healthy on such a diet. :P
I've gone several weeks without eating meat before. Didn't really notice any changes in anything (appetite, weight, etc.) at all except my shit smelled a lot less.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 30, 2015, 06:45:24 PM
For what it's worth, I work with an LT who is a lacto-ovo vegetarian (and a yoga instructor), and he easily maxes out our physical fitness tests (he is very much a slim build guy, not a muscle monster). So it should be possible to live healthy on such a diet. :P
Yeah but your PRT consists of a few rounds of golf.
I've vegan 52% of the year, due to religious observance. The hardest part is getting back on meat; going vegan is great for your digestion. Eat a lot of mushrooms, and you will do fine. And that was not an oral sex joke. Pervs. Mushrooms have a fuckton of nutrients.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 30, 2015, 09:58:02 AM
I think it would be quite difficult to be a vegetarian in Poland.
Only because of the much tastier alternatives. Warsaw is painfully hipster and full of slim health freaks.
France or Italy, especially the rural parts, are more difficult.
For what it's worth, I was a vegetarian for my first year at Uni. My hair started falling out and my nails broke. Though I admit I wasn't particularly scientific about it.
Quote from: Brazen on July 31, 2015, 03:47:18 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on July 30, 2015, 09:58:02 AM
I think it would be quite difficult to be a vegetarian in Poland.
Only because of the much tastier alternatives. Warsaw is painfully hipster and full of slim health freaks.
France or Italy, especially the rural parts, are more difficult.
You can add Spain and Portugal too. Being vegetarian is senseless in a mediterranean diet land.
I find it fascinating that, having asked vegetarians for tips, I instead get lectures from non-vegetarians telling me why vegetarianism is stupid. :D
That's like asking for parenting tips, only to be told that one should not have kids in the first place. Or asking for running shoes' recommendations, only to be told that running is bad for your knees and you should try swimming instead.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 30, 2015, 09:58:02 AM
I think it would be quite difficult to be a vegetarian in Poland.
Not any more, at least not in the downtown Warsaw. In fact, there is at least a dozen purely vegetarian places within a walking distance from the place I work/live in.
Quote from: Caliga on July 30, 2015, 07:00:32 PM
I've gone several weeks without eating meat before. Didn't really notice any changes in anything (appetite, weight, etc.) at all except my shit smelled a lot less.
Well, one of the reasons I am willing giving it a try, is that I thought I had a kidney stone (turned out it was just my back muscles) and when waiting for tests to be back, I went without meat (protein is bad for your kidneys) for 2 weeks - and lost 6 pounds (whilst I was unable to lose weight earlier on a variety of diets). I also felt quite good, having no issues with my bowels.
As I said, ethically, I don't really have huge philosophy about this (it seems to me, people who want to justify eating meat are trying to come up with more ethical gymnastics than those who don't) and if it turned out abstaining from meat is bad for me I would switch back. That being said, the Cecil the Lion thread got me thinking and if I can lead a healthy life without eating animals I would not want to kill with my own hands - then perhaps it is ethical I should stop eating them.
I don't really feel a need to justify what I eat. ^_^
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
I find it fascinating that, having asked vegetarians for tips, I instead get lectures from non-vegetarians telling me why vegetarianism is stupid. :D
That's like asking for parenting tips, only to be told that one should not have kids in the first place. Or asking for running shoes' recommendations, only to be told that running is bad for your knees and you should try swimming instead.
Except that Languish has numerous vocal parents and runners.
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 08:31:55 AM
I don't really feel a need to justify what I eat. ^_^
See, now that makes it more difficult to feel morally superior to other people. Might want to re-think that.
Quote from: derspiess on July 31, 2015, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 08:31:55 AM
I don't really feel a need to justify what I eat. ^_^
See, now that makes it more difficult to feel morally superior to other people. Might want to re-think that.
I don't think so. If you are convinced you are right, you don't need to spend time justifying your actions to peons.
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 31, 2015, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 08:31:55 AM
I don't really feel a need to justify what I eat. ^_^
See, now that makes it more difficult to feel morally superior to other people. Might want to re-think that.
I don't think so. If you are convinced you are right, you don't need to spend time justifying your actions to peons.
Just eat people who disapprove of your eating habits ... problem: solved! ;)
Quote from: Malthus on July 31, 2015, 09:24:55 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 09:02:34 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 31, 2015, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 08:31:55 AM
I don't really feel a need to justify what I eat. ^_^
See, now that makes it more difficult to feel morally superior to other people. Might want to re-think that.
I don't think so. If you are convinced you are right, you don't need to spend time justifying your actions to peons.
Just eat people who disapprove of your eating habits ... problem: solved! ;)
But then you'll become tainted by their mediocrity. :weep:
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 09:50:51 AM
But then you'll become tainted by their mediocrity. :weep:
That's what excretion is for. :D
Quote from: Malthus on July 31, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 31, 2015, 09:50:51 AM
But then you'll become tainted by their mediocrity. :weep:
That's what excretion is for. :D
Excretion is the better part of valor.
Martinus, if Cecil were kosher I would eat his ass.
As a matter of fact, I will eat double meat from now one to make up for the ones you will not eat.
I've considered going the meatless/severely meat-reduced route, but "I like meat" turns out to be a huge problem for a hedonist like me. :blush:
Quote from: Siege on July 31, 2015, 01:47:51 PM
Martinus, if Cecil were kosher I would eat his ass.
As a matter of fact, I will eat double meat from now one to make up for the ones you will not eat.
What if he doubles the amount of meat he doesn't eat in response? Will you then eat quadruple meat? :hmm:
Naw, too easy.
Quote from: 11B4V on July 31, 2015, 04:23:39 PM
Naw, too easy.
He don't eat meat but he sure like the bone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEDw9xgSmSc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEDw9xgSmSc)
God, I can't stand vegetarians already. What a bunch of sanctimonious fucks.
Found a nearby vegetarian restaurant on Facebook, in hopes of going to eat there - only to find out they don't hire non-vegetarians because "they lack the sensitivity". Not only it is probably illegal (it is clear discrimination in employment), they flaunt their fanaticism as if it was a virtue.
Christ, I leave for a week and marty gets even more annoying because a tooth engineer shot a cat 3,000 miles away.
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
I find it fascinating that, having asked vegetarians for tips, I instead get lectures from non-vegetarians telling me why vegetarianism is stupid. :D
That's like asking for parenting tips, only to be told that one should not have kids in the first place. Or asking for running shoes' recommendations, only to be told that running is bad for your knees and you should try swimming instead.
Sometimes the question being asked isn't at all the what the original poster wants to talk about. Sometimes it's just a cry for help.
So, giving up on this. Meat is too good. :blush:
Try cutting down consumption instead.
Also, vegetarians seem to be horribly sanctimonious assholes.
So you should fit right in.
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2015, 03:15:49 AM
So, giving up on this. Meat is too good. :blush:
I really hope you're not this shallow when it comes to your professional activities. :yeahright:
G.
Quote from: DGuller on August 03, 2015, 06:52:54 PM
Sometimes the question being asked isn't at all the what the original poster wants to talk about. Sometimes it's just a cry for help attention.
FIXTED
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2015, 03:15:49 AM
So, giving up on this. Meat is too good. :blush:
Well that lasted longer than your usual fads :P
Why not try meat-free Fridays like the good Catholic boy you are?
Quote from: Grallon on August 06, 2015, 09:24:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2015, 03:15:49 AM
So, giving up on this. Meat is too good. :blush:
I really hope you're not this shallow when it comes to your professional activities. :yeahright:
G.
What does that have to do with anything?
Quote from: Martinus on August 06, 2015, 03:15:49 AM
So, giving up on this. Meat is too good. :blush:
Oh you! :P
Actually I did the vegetarian thing for 6 months in college and then gave it up for meat.
I wouldn't do the vegetarian thing for 6 seconds, because it's dumb. Harumph.
I would be willing to try the vegetarian thing. Not out of morality, but simply out of health concerns. I do need to lose some weight.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2015, 11:15:04 PM
I would be willing to try the vegetarian thing. Not out of morality, but simply out of health concerns. I do need to lose some weight.
Unless you're in the Crazy Canuck clan, your weight is probably the result of junk food rather than meat. I know mine is. :blush:
I would do a vegetarian if she's cute enough.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on August 06, 2015, 11:17:15 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 06, 2015, 11:15:04 PM
I would be willing to try the vegetarian thing. Not out of morality, but simply out of health concerns. I do need to lose some weight.
Unless you're in the Crazy Canuck clan, your weight is probably the result of junk food rather than meat. I know mine is. :blush:
Yep, in fact I'm a believer in the paleo thing now. Or at least a toned down version that allows for moderate beer consumption :D Eat plenty of lean protein and cut out the sugar and starches. I can pretty much eat as much beef jerky as I want, which does a great job of canceling out hunger.
:D
Yeah, I could 'do' paleo, I think, and lately alot of our meals have been low carb, but I CAN NOT give up beer, ever. In fact I put 30 cans of Miller in the beer fridge this afternoon. :showoff:
Quote from: Caliga on August 08, 2015, 07:57:19 PM
:D
Yeah, I could 'do' paleo, I think, and lately alot of our meals have been low carb, but I CAN NOT give up beer, ever. In fact I put 30 cans of Miller in the beer fridge this afternoon. :showoff:
Sounds like you already have.
Paleo gives you constipation, though, so you need to eat some extra fiber.
That being said, I tried "light paleo" (with booze) and could not lose weight - then I dropped booze for a while and lost a tonne, despite eating a lot of everything.
So yeah guys, I'm sorry to say but if you want to lose weight, giving up booze is the way to go. :(
Quote from: Syt on August 06, 2015, 11:35:21 PM
I would do a vegetarian if she's cute enough.
This
What exactly is Paleo again?
Quote from: Razgovory on August 09, 2015, 11:46:33 AM
What exactly is Paleo again?
Basically, eating what palaeolithic hunter-gatherers would eat. So anything that can be hunted (meat, fish) or can be picked (vegetables, fruit, honey, nuts, eggs) but no dairy, no grains and no processed foods. Obviously, any alcoholic stuff is a no-no by this philosophy, so people cheat and call it "paleo light" so they can get pissed.
The philosophy behind this diet is that the agricultural revolution is a recent phenomenon, and our bodies did not evolve to accommodate it.
Quote from: Martinus on August 09, 2015, 11:51:52 AMThe philosophy behind this diet is that the agricultural revolution is a recent phenomenon, and our bodies did not evolve to accommodate it.
And that's utter bullshit.
Okay, that's stupid.
I've given up on diets.
The so-called "Mediterranean" diet is the closest thing to something I follow. Fish, olive oil, vegetables, lean meats and wholegrain. I have eaten so much spinach these past few years, I basically am Popeye The Sailor Man.
Alcohol and sugary drinks have a metric shittonne of calories, but I daresay if booze is what's keeping you from losing weight if you're trying, it's not really the weight's that's your primary issue... ;)
My casual research tells me that the ultimate food for maximizing fat/calories/sugar into the smallest, tastiest morsel possible is...cheesecake.
The wonderful thing about the paleo people is that hunter/gatherers did indeed eat grains (and did so whenever they could find such wild things). The basic arguments about domestication of such plants depends on scheduled rounds of hunter/gatherers coming and harvesting such plants...
Quote from: Martinus on August 09, 2015, 12:38:47 AM
So yeah guys, I'm sorry to say but if you want to lose weight, giving up booze is the way to go. :(
For you. I've had days recently where I had to crack open a couple beers at the evening in order to get to my minimum calories for that day. Moderate consumption doesn't seem to hurt me much. It's those damned bottle shares and beer festivals that do it.