Well, after years and years of dragging my feet about this, I've finally filed the request for quitting the Lutheran Church.
My parents had me baptized/confirmed, because, well that's what you do, even if you don't believe in God, or think that the clergy are aloof weirdos.
Church membership incurs fees that are collected by the financial authorities on behalf of the churches at the same time your tax/social security is deducted from your salary payout. I paid, IIRC, 20, 25 or so EUR/month in Germany.
In Austria the church sends you a bill every couple of months. They charge you based on your income. I never disclosed my income to them, so they went with a EUR 10,000 annual income estimate in 2008 (which has by now grown to 14k, but is still way below my actual income).
Leaving a church has to be done through the magistrate. I've previously been too lazy to do that, but I've noticed you can now file the request online, for free (you only have to provide proof of belonging to the church in question, e.g. the bill they send you).
I've just paid my last overdue church fee, filed the request and now await confirmation in some form (and probably a letter from my church about how sorry they are to see me go or some such).
Soon I'm officially a heathen, apostate etc. :beer:
Damn, no more Lutheran jokes on Syt. :(
Grandpa Johnny is crying from heaven. :)
:o
I shall pray for you Syt. -_- :pope:
I can see how it might be OK to pay a retainer to a church so you have someone on call if you need a church wedding or church funeral, but 25 euro seems pretty steep.
If you apostosize, aren't you still on the hook for an equivalent pagan tax? I vaguely recall something like that in Germany.
Well, it just feels more honest this way. I don't believe in God or a higher power (though I consider it impossible to disprove the existence of such an entity with 100% certainty).
Doesn't mean I don't respect religious beliefs.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2015, 07:01:01 AM
I can see how it might be OK to pay a retainer to a church so you have someone on call if you need a church wedding or church funeral, but 25 euro seems pretty steep.
If you apostosize, aren't you still on the hook for an equivalent pagan tax? I vaguely recall something like that in Germany.
They used to have it, but not any more IIRC. In Austria no such thing exists.
Does the tax mean Teutonic churches skip the offering part of the ceremony?
Does that mean you don't get to sing the Doxology? :o
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2015, 07:34:51 AM
Does the tax mean Teutonic churches skip the offering part of the ceremony?
Nope, the plate/bag still goes around during mass, if that's what you mean. Usually it's for a specific cause; or at least it was in my hometown in the early 90s.
QuoteDoes that mean you don't get to sing the Doxology? :o
The what? (I looked at the Wiki article in English and German, and I could honestly not say.)
The song you sing after you hand over your loot.
"Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow,
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above ye heavenly host.
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 06:43:57 AM
Church membership incurs fees that are collected by the financial authorities on behalf of the churches at the same time your tax/social security is deducted from your salary payout. I paid, IIRC, 20, 25 or so EUR/month in Germany.
:o How 17th Century. Best the church I got baptised at got was 20p in the collection on school services.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 05, 2015, 07:43:45 AM
The song you sing after you hand over your loot.
"Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow,
Praise Him all creatures here below.
Praise Him above ye heavenly host.
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
I've attended 2 dozen services in my lifetime, tops, so I honestly don't recall whether or not there was a specific song while the alms were collected. It may have been one of the hymns that were picked out by the pastor for the service/sermon for that week.
Quote from: Brazen on June 05, 2015, 07:49:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 06:43:57 AM
Church membership incurs fees that are collected by the financial authorities on behalf of the churches at the same time your tax/social security is deducted from your salary payout. I paid, IIRC, 20, 25 or so EUR/month in Germany.
:o How 17th Century. Best the church I got baptised at got was 20p in the collection on school services.
That's something expats in Germany discovery very quickly. Among the first questions asked when registering at the city hall. Sometimes, they're told to pretend they are not religious to avoid pretend it, despite baptism. Lately, German churches have been using baptism archives abroad so some people had some bad surprises.
:( End of an era, or something.
You will always be a beloved child of God to me Syt :hug:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 05, 2015, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: Brazen on June 05, 2015, 07:49:00 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 06:43:57 AM
Church membership incurs fees that are collected by the financial authorities on behalf of the churches at the same time your tax/social security is deducted from your salary payout. I paid, IIRC, 20, 25 or so EUR/month in Germany.
:o How 17th Century. Best the church I got baptised at got was 20p in the collection on school services.
That's something expats in Germany discovery very quickly. Among the first questions asked when registering at the city hall. Sometimes, they're told to pretend they are not religious to avoid pretend it, despite baptism. Lately, German churches have been using baptism archives abroad so some people had some bad surprises.
I never announced my religion here, but the church still found me. And they keep track of you moving apartments.
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 08:28:09 AM
I never announced my religion here, but the church still found me. And they keep track of you moving apartments.
Überwachungsstaat! :pope: :tinfoil:
I am glad German efficiency still lives on someplace.
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 08:28:09 AM
I never announced my religion here, but the church still found me. And they keep track of you moving apartments.
My church (meaning specific location/congregation) has so many people they've 1) greatly increased the barriers requirements to join, and 2) don't really seem to care a whole lot if you veer away. They've had to expand the church building and are gradually taking over an entire block of buildings. They make it seem as they are growing only grudgingly. You definitely get the feeling that they'd be okay if you stopped going or went somewhere else.
Oh, and I contribute to the offering plate whenever I'm at a service, but during football season they get less money from me.
We, as in the family, went Methodist. The Baptist church she liked went clique-ish and had bad juju going on.
So the kids watch Despicable Me on Sundays and I still skip church.
2011 statistic for Vienna:
41.3% Roman-Catholic
11.6% Muslim
8.4% Orthodox
4.2% Protestant
2.9% Other
31.6% No affiliation
Quote from: derspiess on June 05, 2015, 08:38:23 AM
My church (meaning specific location/congregation) has so many people they've 1) greatly increased the barriers requirements to join, and 2) don't really seem to care a whole lot if you veer away. They've had to expand the church building and are gradually taking over an entire block of buildings. They make it seem as they are growing only grudgingly. You definitely get the feeling that they'd be okay if you stopped going or went somewhere else.
Oh, and I contribute to the offering plate whenever I'm at a service, but during football season they get less money from me.
:unsure: Why are you telling us this?
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 07:05:05 AMI don't believe in God or a higher power (though I consider it impossible to disprove the existence of such an entity with 100% certainty).
Doesn't mean I don't respect religious beliefs.
So that's opposite for me. :P
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 08:44:22 AM
2011 statistic for Vienna:
41.3% Roman-Catholic
11.6% Muslim
8.4% Orthodox
4.2% Protestant
2.9% Other
31.6% No affiliation
11.6% too much of one group.
Over here as a restover of the French Revolution the recognized churches (the biggest off course the Mother Church of Rome about 90%)
are paid by the state and their priests are also paid by the state from the general income. There's no specific tax for this like in Germany.
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2015, 08:45:07 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 05, 2015, 08:38:23 AM
My church (meaning specific location/congregation) has so many people they've 1) greatly increased the barriers requirements to join, and 2) don't really seem to care a whole lot if you veer away. They've had to expand the church building and are gradually taking over an entire block of buildings. They make it seem as they are growing only grudgingly. You definitely get the feeling that they'd be okay if you stopped going or went somewhere else.
Oh, and I contribute to the offering plate whenever I'm at a service, but during football season they get less money from me.
:unsure: Why are you telling us this?
In my mind I started with something relative to the topic, but kind of went off on a tangent. I do that sometimes.
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 08:44:22 AM
2011 statistic for Vienna:
41.3% Roman-Catholic
11.6% Muslim
8.4% Orthodox
4.2% Protestant
2.9% Other
31.6% No affiliation
Congradulations Europe - you managed to replace :Joos with :osama:
:P
:cheers:
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 05, 2015, 08:48:47 AM
Quote from: Syt on June 05, 2015, 08:44:22 AM
2011 statistic for Vienna:
41.3% Roman-Catholic
11.6% Muslim
8.4% Orthodox
4.2% Protestant
2.9% Other
31.6% No affiliation
11.6% too much of one group.
:yes:
29.7% Catholic would be a much more manageable number.
Euro barbarism. That's like 2.5 blu-rays, every month.
Quote from: Malthus on June 05, 2015, 10:37:30 AM
Congradulations Europe - you managed to replace :Joos with :osama:
:P
It's acually true for Vienna. Pre-war Jewish population was about what the Muslim %-age is now.
Also, Books & Bagles closed their shop here. :(
Quote from: Ideologue on June 05, 2015, 01:00:30 PM
Euro barbarism. That's like 2.5 blu-rays, every month.
You could probably get 20 blu-rays in China.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 05, 2015, 07:59:55 AM
That's something expats in Germany discovery very quickly. Among the first questions asked when registering at the city hall. Sometimes, they're told to pretend they are not religious to avoid pretend it, despite baptism. Lately, German churches have been using baptism archives abroad so some people had some bad surprises.
The US has literally hundreds of denominations. Do they only track members of the main ones that exist in Germany or what?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 05, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 05, 2015, 07:59:55 AM
That's something expats in Germany discovery very quickly. Among the first questions asked when registering at the city hall. Sometimes, they're told to pretend they are not religious to avoid pretend it, despite baptism. Lately, German churches have been using baptism archives abroad so some people had some bad surprises.
The US has literally hundreds of denominations. Do they only track members of the main ones that exist in Germany or what?
The two big groups in Germany are Lutherans and Roman-Catholics (almost 60%). They're collecting through the state revenue. There's a few more doing it that way (Unitarians, Jewish Congreations, e.g.). Peopl without religious affiliation are over 30%, so that's over 90% of the population covered.
Other groups (Jehova's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Muslims, etc.) don't charge directly.
In Bavaria/Baden-Württemberg, church tax (for those in churches that charge it) is 8% of the income tax, in other states 9%.
How un-Biblical :angry:
It is supposed to be a tenth -_-
Quote from: Ideologue on June 05, 2015, 01:00:30 PM
Euro barbarism. That's like 2.5 blu-rays, every month.
But not Criterions or their local equivalents. Relax. :)
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 05, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 05, 2015, 07:59:55 AM
That's something expats in Germany discovery very quickly. Among the first questions asked when registering at the city hall. Sometimes, they're told to pretend they are not religious to avoid pretend it, despite baptism. Lately, German churches have been using baptism archives abroad so some people had some bad surprises.
The US has literally hundreds of denominations. Do they only track members of the main ones that exist in Germany or what?
In Hessen (Frankfurt am Main), they only asked if you were Catholic or Protestant, to give you a precise example.
Quote from: derspiess on June 05, 2015, 08:38:23 AM
My church (meaning specific location/congregation) has so many people they've 1) greatly increased the barriers requirements to join, .
that seems oddly contradictory for a church... Imagine of Paul had done that back then. We'd all be Mithras-worshippers now.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 05, 2015, 03:16:10 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 05, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
The US has literally hundreds of denominations. Do they only track members of the main ones that exist in Germany or what?
In Hessen (Frankfurt am Main), they only asked if you were Catholic or Protestant, to give you a precise example.
And Protestant means the Lutheran quasi state church, not all those other Protestant denominations.
Quote from: Valmy on June 05, 2015, 08:19:25 AM
You will always be a beloved child of God to me Syt :hug:
Same! :hug: