My mother recently learned that one of her great-grandfathers died in WW1. All the family folklore knew was that he was beheaded by an artillery shell, but nobody knew the year, not even the front.
So she requested information, and eventually got it from Vienna.
So now I know that one of my ancestors died (aged 43 IIRC) on the 29th of June, 1916, in one of the countless battles over Monte San Michele in Italy on the Isonzo Front.
The significance of that battle is that it was the first time gas was used on the Italian front. It was the Austro-Hungarian forces who managed to achieve some level of surprise with it.
Apparently this was a strategic location, fiercely contested. The Italians got it first, then the Austro-Hungarians got it in 1915, after horrible losses, including 80% casualties to the 20th division, where my great-great grandpa was (or would be sent to). Then in 1916 the Italians got it back after another fierce fighting.
RIP great-great grandpa. :(
You should do a Soca Valley trip.
Neat, Tamas. I didn't have any relatives killed in WWI but my great-great Uncle Jerry sustained brain damage from a nearby shell burst in 1918 on the Western Front and was kind of screwed up the rest of his life. He managed to live until 1955 though.
I am amazed that they keep records about how each soldier died.
My Great-Grandfather was injured in WWI but his service went up in the fire that destroyed the records of my WWII ancestors as well. So I know very little of where he served and where he got injured. When he was alive he used to discuss how eerie he found the fact that in the destroyed French villages the spires of the church would remain. I guess he found something spiritual about that.
It is kind of sick that I have all the records of ancestors from all the 19th century wars but the two freaking world wars are a genealogical black hole. Thanks US for putting all the army service records in one building.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 18, 2015, 07:34:42 PM
I am amazed that they keep records about how each soldier died.
Um isn't it standard procedure to do a roll call after each engagement to find out who is killed and missing?
'How many men do we have in the 19th division? Not sure sir, we have never checked.'
If 200 guys deserted or got captured that is also kind of important information. And if they know how men are getting killed that can aid in development of gear and/or tactics.
My family skipped most 20th century wars. :)
Except for the fellow that fell out of the guard tower at Dacahu
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2015, 07:53:05 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 18, 2015, 07:34:42 PM
I am amazed that they keep records about how each soldier died.
Um isn't it standard procedure to do a roll call after each engagement to find out who is killed and missing?
'How many men do we have in the 19th division? Not sure sir, we have never checked.'
If 200 guys deserted or got captured that is also kind of important information. And if they know how men are getting killed that can aid in development of gear and/or tactics.
I don't think they bothered in the Nationalist armies/PLA :D
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2015, 07:53:05 PM
Um isn't it standard procedure to do a roll call after each engagement to find out who is killed and missing?
'How many men do we have in the 19th division? Not sure sir, we have never checked.'
If 200 guys deserted or got captured that is also kind of important information. And if they know how men are getting killed that can aid in development of gear and/or tactics.
Mono was talking about the specific cause of death. I.e. high explosive to head. I found that unusual as well. There are usually records of type of wound suffered, but I've never seen anything about type of weapon used to kill someone. At least nothing systematic.
Quote from: Tamas on May 18, 2015, 04:31:01 PM
RIP great-great grandpa. :(
Crap your family has quick generation times. My only great great grandfather I know about was in the US Civil War.
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2015, 07:51:50 PM
It is kind of sick that I have all the records of ancestors from all the 19th century wars but the two freaking world wars are a genealogical black hole. Thanks US for putting all the army service records in one building.
Yeah, my grandfather's WWII service records went up in smoke in that fire also, which is a damn shame because after he was a bomber radioman, he next did ATC duty, and then he did some secret thing at SHAEF. I would have liked to have known what it was, since he hated talking about the war and never told his kids or wife much in the way of details.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 18, 2015, 08:02:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 18, 2015, 04:31:01 PM
RIP great-great grandpa. :(
Crap your family has quick generation times. My only great great grandfather I know about was in the US Civil War.
(insert crack about gypsy breeding)
My grandfather was wounded in 1918 on the Western Front - he was in a machine gun battalion of (I think) the 1st infantry division. He eventually was one of the first people successfully to have most of one lung resected due to (again, I think, the effects of gas).
He lived until 1967 when I was a year and a half old.
My family also has long generation times - he was born in the 19th century, my brother's youngest were born in the 21st century.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 18, 2015, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 18, 2015, 07:53:05 PM
Um isn't it standard procedure to do a roll call after each engagement to find out who is killed and missing?
'How many men do we have in the 19th division? Not sure sir, we have never checked.'
If 200 guys deserted or got captured that is also kind of important information. And if they know how men are getting killed that can aid in development of gear and/or tactics.
Mono was talking about the specific cause of death. I.e. high explosive to head. I found that unusual as well. There are usually records of type of wound suffered, but I've never seen anything about type of weapon used to kill someone. At least nothing systematic.
No that wasn't in the records, it was the story in the family. How they learned it I have no idea, but probably from a returning friend, as these reservist divisions had people from the same area.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 18, 2015, 08:02:47 PM
Quote from: Tamas on May 18, 2015, 04:31:01 PM
RIP great-great grandpa. :(
Crap your family has quick generation times. My only great great grandfather I know about was in the US Civil War.
Well he was 43 :p my other two ww1 veteran family members were great-grandpas, so this guy was sort of the exception generationally I guess.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 18, 2015, 07:55:34 PM
My family skipped most 20th century wars. :)
Same here. Actually, last direct ancestor that was involved in any fighting was my great-great-grandfather who was named after Sherman. He fought in the Spanish-American War. We found a couple of his letters and they're a hoot: Ohio farmboy in Florida for the first time and then Cuba.
I know the names of my grandparents, but not their life data (birth place, birth/death dates), and I couldn't tell you even the names of my great grand parents.
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2015, 02:17:39 AM
Well he was 43 :p my other two ww1 veteran family members were great-grandpas, so this guy was sort of the exception generationally I guess.
Well Austria-Hungary mobilized over 7.5 million soldiers out of a population of only 50 million so you had to figure anybody male under 60 and over 15 was considered available.
I tracked my Great Grand father's regiment across in WWI so I knew where he was was wounded. He was actually wounded by gun fire an hour after the war. He went on to become county Sheriff and then came to Jefferson City to be a prison warden. Died in the 1950's.
The significance of the day of his death due to the gas attack thing lets you actually read a fairly detailed account of the day.
In summary, after much preparation, the gas attack mostly achieved what was expected, but the unaffected portions of the Italian trenches did not rout. After savage fighting the A-H troops (vast majority Hungarian reservists) captured the Italian 1st trenchline, but due to the terrain were under flanking fire there, and with their rear communication and supply lines out in the open of course, and under constant and heavy enemy fire, plus the Italian trench itself being in a shitty state, they decided to just wreck everything there and retreat to their own trenches.
So, a typical WW1 story really: much preparation, horrors of gas attack, vicious fighting, 4000 dead on the A-H side alone on one day and one hilltop, and zero meters of advance at the end of the day. Yet it was considered a success those days because it bought the survivors some time of relative calm due to wrecking the Italian first line.
I am seeculating that poor grandpa had to be among the parts of his unit which got pinned by an untouched part of the Italian line in front of them. Those guys suffered heavy casualties as soon as they tried to assault undamaged and unaffected trenches, and so their attack quickly collapsed. My reasoning is that if he died in the attack that actually reached the Italian trenches, his body would not had been recovered to be buried in the A-H cemetery he ended up in a couple of days later.
Sorry for the long-windedness, but this personal family story really helps putting things into perspective for me. I mean, he was just one of 4000 on his side only, and only on that part of the front on that day, and I know (vaguely) how his wife was left alone to raise 3 boys, and arguably failing at it, at least two of them (including my great-grandpa on that line) becoming alcoholics and drinking away the little farm poor great-great-grandpa managed to save together before dying in Italy for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
I know what you mean. My great-great grandfather was wounded and captured at Monocacy in 1864. Obviously makes that battle more meaningful to me. My dad and I stopped by there and pinpointed the spot in the field where he was shot, based upon his account. Old dude lived to the age of 90.
Quote from: derspiess on May 19, 2015, 08:28:41 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 18, 2015, 07:55:34 PM
My family skipped most 20th century wars. :)
Same here. Actually, last direct ancestor that was involved in any fighting was my great-great-grandfather who was named after Sherman. He fought in the Spanish-American War. We found a couple of his letters and they're a hoot: Ohio farmboy in Florida for the first time and then Cuba.
Those belong in a museum. :outback: :)
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2015, 03:58:38 PM
Sorry for the long-windedness, but this personal family story really helps putting things into perspective for me. I mean, he was just one of 4000 on his side only, and only on that part of the front on that day, and I know (vaguely) how his wife was left alone to raise 3 boys, and arguably failing at it, at least two of them (including my great-grandpa on that line) becoming alcoholics and drinking away the little farm poor great-great-grandpa managed to save together before dying in Italy for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Did you ever stop to think how weird it is that you can just go to Italy any time you like with no problems now, but back then you would have been shot? :hmm:
I sometimes think that when travelling between South and North here, though usually I do that between Kentucky and Indiana and it was by no means a black and white thing like that during the Civil War around here.
I don't think the CSA ever controlled Kentucky all the way to the Indiana border.
Quote from: Caliga on May 21, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2015, 03:58:38 PM
Sorry for the long-windedness, but this personal family story really helps putting things into perspective for me. I mean, he was just one of 4000 on his side only, and only on that part of the front on that day, and I know (vaguely) how his wife was left alone to raise 3 boys, and arguably failing at it, at least two of them (including my great-grandpa on that line) becoming alcoholics and drinking away the little farm poor great-great-grandpa managed to save together before dying in Italy for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Did you ever stop to think how weird it is that you can just go to Italy any time you like with no problems now, but back then you would have been shot? :hmm:
I sometimes think that when travelling between South and North here, though usually I do that between Kentucky and Indiana and it was by no means a black and white thing like that during the Civil War around here.
For sure. Also I have a few Italian colleagues. It is perfectly conceivable that our great grandpas were shooting at each other merely a hundred years ago, and here we are now.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 21, 2015, 07:07:50 AM
I don't think the CSA ever controlled Kentucky all the way to the Indiana border.
Did you not read the second part of my second sentence? :huh:
I think in Kentucky it was a town by town thing as far as loyalty went. Towns in Northern Kentucky were staunchly pro-union, as one might imagine.
Quote from: derspiess on May 21, 2015, 08:46:12 AM
I think in Kentucky it was a town by town thing as far as loyalty went. Towns in Northern Kentucky were staunchly pro-union, as one might imagine.
Both the town I live in now and the town I will be moving to shortly were pro-Union and were attacked by Confederate guerrillas. Quantrill was killed in the town I now live in, in a Union ambush.
I believe southern and western Kentucky was more closely aligned with the Confederacy, which makes sense as that's where the state's large plantations were.
It's pretty good that you got the info about your great, great grandfather in WWI. I had one grandfather who served there, a step-grandfather. My others I don't know if they served; they had come from Italy in the early 1900s so were probably too young.
Good to see others have some info on what their ancestors did, what they went through even though some of it is hard to talk about.
I do have a lot of information from my father, uncles and great uncle who served in WW2. Some amazing stories came out of it and I'm glad they were able to tell about it, tell us the history of what they went through, even though some of it is rough stuff.
Yeah... in addition to my grandfather's WWII experiences which I mentioned earlier, his identical twin Nelson served as well, and was a PBY Catalina pilot in the Pacific. He was shot down by the Japanese off New Guinea but managed to land (lucky he was in a Catalina I guess) and got to shore and was rescued by the Australians.
:huh:
I was just doing some more geneology work and found my great grandfather's pension application from WWI. I had forgotten he was in the US Navy during the war... and I never knew until now that he was on a ship (the SS Montanan) that was sunk by a U-Boat in 1918. I can't believe nobody in my family ever told me that. :wacko: Don't worry people, he survived long enough to reproduce and hence I exist. :)
He could have knocked up great grandma before going off to war.
I know where my grandfathers served during WWII, but while I know some of my ancestors were in WWI, I have no clue about details.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 21, 2015, 08:09:56 PM
He could have knocked up great grandma before going off to war.
Unless she was an elephant, unlikely, as my grandmother was born three years after the sinking.
Elephant chicks can get knocked up before they're born? :huh:
Never mind. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 21, 2015, 08:20:17 PM
Elephant chicks can get knocked up before they're born? :huh:
No.
Quote from: Tamas on May 21, 2015, 07:09:41 AM
Quote from: Caliga on May 21, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2015, 03:58:38 PM
Sorry for the long-windedness, but this personal family story really helps putting things into perspective for me. I mean, he was just one of 4000 on his side only, and only on that part of the front on that day, and I know (vaguely) how his wife was left alone to raise 3 boys, and arguably failing at it, at least two of them (including my great-grandpa on that line) becoming alcoholics and drinking away the little farm poor great-great-grandpa managed to save together before dying in Italy for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Did you ever stop to think how weird it is that you can just go to Italy any time you like with no problems now, but back then you would have been shot? :hmm:
I sometimes think that when travelling between South and North here, though usually I do that between Kentucky and Indiana and it was by no means a black and white thing like that during the Civil War around here.
For sure. Also I have a few Italian colleagues. It is perfectly conceivable that our great grandpas were shooting at each other merely a hundred years ago, and here we are now.
:yes:
One of my greatuncles disappeared in Russia during WWII; he was part of the extremely successful ( :() ARMIR, the Italian Army in Russia.
Either he has become part of the permafrost, or, showing typical Italian adaptability, he disappeared to avoid returning to Mussolini's arms, married an Ukrainian chick and became the grandfather of Malthus' wife.
L.
I avoided going to Bosnia because my cousin died in a mass shooting by a Bosniak. I don't really like Bosniaks still, at all. I hate to say it but it's probably one of the reasons I identify with Serbs and hate the Ottomans so much, though I was a Byzanteen long before my cousin was murdered.
My grandfather died a few weeks ago. He was born in '26, so he was pretty young during the war. When he started to get old enough to serve he applied to the navy and got to serve on the u-boats. Thankfully for me he had a heart condition that was discovered before he was sent out in the atlantic.
He got transfered to a mine-sweeper and served in the baltic for much of the late part of the war. He was unlucky enough to get transfered into Königsberg just before the soviets surrounded it. They gave him a rifle and put him in the nearest infantry unit.
He told me a few months ago, quite chillingly, that that was he first time he was under artillery fire. His unit tried to break out towards Danzig, there were some veterans with the unit and apparently they had a flak vierling, so they had some success. In the end they were wiped out and my grandfather got to spend five years shuffling coal in the Ukraine and White Russia.
Coming home to Hamburg, very sick and malnourished he told me that it felt very bitter to see all the girls with american soldiers whilst he himself had nothing. Eventually he migrated to Sweden, met my grandmother and had a good life.
My grandmother on my dad's side was a refugee from the Spanish Civil War. Put on a boat and shipped to Belgium when Franco captured the town. Her older brother fought in a "elite" unit of the regular army still loyal to the Republican regime.
After the defeat he fled to France and ended up in the Vichy forces in northern Africa where defected to the British.
Joined the paratroopers and fought in both D-Day and Market Garden. After the war was given the British nationality and ended up living in Edingburgh and married another Spanish refugee.
Quote from: barkdreg on December 22, 2015, 09:39:13 AM
My grandmother on my dad's side was a refugee from the Spanish Civil War. Put on a boat and shipped to Belgium when Franco captured the town. Her older brother fought in a "elite" unit of the regular army still loyal to the Republican regime.
After the defeat he fled to France and ended up in the Vichy forces in northern Africa where defected to the British.
Joined the paratroopers and fought in both D-Day and Market Garden. After the war was given the British nationality and ended up living in Edingburgh and married another Spanish refugee.
Damn, that dude was a serious bad ass. Or really lucky.
He was either Chuck Norris, or Flashman. :)
I've always been told that out of the 100 men in the paratrooper unit only 7 or 8 survived.
He also lost two brothers in the SCW.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 22, 2015, 05:11:31 AM
I avoided going to Bosnia because my cousin died in a mass shooting by a Bosniak. I don't really like Bosniaks still, at all. I hate to say it but it's probably one of the reasons I identify with Serbs and hate the Ottomans so much, though I was a Byzanteen long before my cousin was murdered.
:mellow:
One of my good work friends (though the bastard recently defected to another company) is a Bosniak refugee.
Quote from: barkdreg on December 22, 2015, 09:39:13 AM
My grandmother on my dad's side was a refugee from the Spanish Civil War. Put on a boat and shipped to Belgium when Franco captured the town. Her older brother fought in a "elite" unit of the regular army still loyal to the Republican regime.
After the defeat he fled to France and ended up in the Vichy forces in northern Africa where defected to the British.
Joined the paratroopers and fought in both D-Day and Market Garden. After the war was given the British nationality and ended up living in Edingburgh and married another Spanish refugee.
You are part Spanish and you never told. ¡A mis brazos, hermano! :hug: :cheers:
Your tío-abuelo's route was a bit unusual though. I had the understanding that most Spanish Republicans who slipped to France after the SCW ended up in the Free French forces, rather thna in the British army. They're an interesting bunch of people, those veterans.
Katmai knows about my Spanish/Basque roots and I'm quite sure I've already told this story in the old Kapland forum.
You are correct, most other SCW veterans ended up in the Free French forces. I've never gotten an explanation how he ended up in the British Army. Sadly I've never met the man and he died some 30 years ago.
EDIT: 15th post this year, am I slowly delurking?
Quote from: Caliga on December 22, 2015, 10:58:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 22, 2015, 05:11:31 AM
I avoided going to Bosnia because my cousin died in a mass shooting by a Bosniak. I don't really like Bosniaks still, at all. I hate to say it but it's probably one of the reasons I identify with Serbs and hate the Ottomans so much, though I was a Byzanteen long before my cousin was murdered.
:mellow:
One of my good work friends (though the bastard recently defected to another company) is a Bosniak refugee.
I'm not really sure how to explain it.
I'm polite, and personable, with Bosniaks, and TBH could imagine being friends with one, but Bosniak culture and the Bosniak identity somehow make me uncomfortable.
Quote from: barkdreg on December 22, 2015, 11:26:04 AM
Katmai knows about my Spanish/Basque roots and I'm quite sure I've already told this story in the old Kapland forum.
:yes: