Dude had already killed his whole family and only the uncle of the bride objected? :hmm:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gul-ahmad-saeed-accused-killing-14-pakistan-over-marriage-wrangle-n336381
Quote
Gul Ahmad Saeed Accused of Killing 14 in Pakistan Over Marriage Wrangle
COLLAPSE STORY
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — A Pakistani man is suspected of killing his fiancé and nine of her relatives after the woman's family appeared reluctant to give her permission to marry, police said on Monday.
The 25-year-old suspect, who police identified as Gul Ahmad Saeed, had been on the run since murdering his parents, brother and sister-in-law earlier this year when they obstructed the marriage.
On Sunday, he returned to his town in northwest Pakistan and, with some accomplices, shot dead his fiance, her parents and seven of her siblings, after an uncle had raised his opposition to the marriage, police said.
"The uncle was being very indecisive about the wedding which infuriated Gul Ahmad," said police officer Mohammad Jamil.
Police were searching for the suspects but they were believed to have fled into the semi-autonomous Pashtun tribal area along the Afghan border where government authorities hold little sway and police are not legally permitted to go.
The killings took place in a deeply conservative area where women there are often discouraged from going to school and have little choice when it comes to marriage. Pakistani women are often killed by men who feel their honor has been offended in some way.
The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan reported that 869 women were murdered in so-called honor killings in 2013, the last year for which data is available.
It was the only logical thing to do.
I guess the father-in-law-not-to-be in hindsight made the right decision. The guy was a murderous loon.
We must understand and be tolerant of non-western culture. Just because it is difference doesn't mean it is wrong.
Brown peeple being brow peeple - film at 11.
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And when I write 'brown people' I'm obviously not referring to their skin color, just to clarify before the usual idiots come hollering about 'mah racism!'
This isn't about race, it never was, for me anyway; it's about culture and how some are not 'aligned' with the modern world. Yet we keep treating them as equals because the currently prevailing dogma commands us to do so; talk about shooting oneself in the face!
G.
Quote from: Grallon on April 06, 2015, 06:46:40 PM
Brown peeple being brow peeple - film at 11.
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And when I write 'brown people' I'm obviously not referring to their skin color, just to clarify before the usual idiots come hollering about 'mah racism!'
Then don't write brown people, that's a solution simple enough for even you to understand.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 06, 2015, 06:47:53 PM
Then don't write brown people, that's a solution simple enough for even you to understand.
Timmy, do read the whole post before you knee-jerk will ya?
G.
Quote from: Grallon on April 06, 2015, 06:46:40 PM
Brown peeple being brow peeple - film at 11.
-----
And when I write 'brown people' I'm obviously not referring to their skin color, just to clarify before the usual idiots come hollering about 'mah racism!'
This isn't about race, it never was, for me anyway; it's about culture and how some are not 'aligned' with the modern world. Yet we keep treating them as equals because the currently prevailing dogma commands us to do so; talk about shooting oneself in the face!
G.
Low or high?
Quote from: Berkut on April 06, 2015, 06:38:36 PM
We must understand and be tolerant of non-western culture. Just because it is difference doesn't mean it is wrong.
It seems kind of odd that this article ends with a mention on honor killings as I don't think being someone who killed one's own family and then later in the year decides to kill one's fiancee and her family has anything to do with honor killings. :huh:
Quote from: garbon on April 07, 2015, 01:11:05 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 06, 2015, 06:38:36 PM
We must understand and be tolerant of non-western culture. Just because it is difference doesn't mean it is wrong.
It seems kind of odd that this article ends with a mention on honor killings as I don't think being someone who killed one's own family and then later in the year decides to kill one's fiancee and her family has anything to do with honor killings. :huh:
Why not? These are exactly the usual targets of honour killings.
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 01:15:48 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 07, 2015, 01:11:05 AM
Quote from: Berkut on April 06, 2015, 06:38:36 PM
We must understand and be tolerant of non-western culture. Just because it is difference doesn't mean it is wrong.
It seems kind of odd that this article ends with a mention on honor killings as I don't think being someone who killed one's own family and then later in the year decides to kill one's fiancee and her family has anything to do with honor killings. :huh:
Why not? These are exactly the usual targets of honour killings.
Everyone connected to a killer are the usual targets?
As far as I knew, the term is usually used to discuss males killing females who they think have brought shame to their families (like being raped, refusing to go along with an arranged marriage). I don't think that usually extends to killing everyone who may have slighted a would-be groom. Generally there also seems to be a suggestion that said killings are either spawned or legitimized by the culture of the killer and in this case it doesn't seem like there is anyone thinking he did the right think (though maybe there and the blurb just didn't get a chance to report on them).
Not really. It is a much broader term.
Insightful. Broad enough that it is completely useless to use then - apart from I guess blaming one culture for its crazed killers while allowing Western culture a free pass? :P
Well, to elaborate honor killings are used quite commonly to describe murder of a family member for a perceived slight against the honour of the killer and/or his family. I have seen it used frequently, for example, to describe the murder of gay or transgendered children of both sexes in countries like Turkey. There is also a component of cultural - if not acceptance then at least tolerance/turning the blind eye to this type of murder.
Now, the killing in question is probably more remotely related to it but it is not completely unrelated - the killer is clearly defending his honour, his targets are family members, so the only component that is unclear is whether this type of murder is seen as culturally acceptable at least by part of the culture he lives in. It appears the author of the article is - either rightly or wrongly - implying it is. Do you have any evidence to refute that claim?
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 01:41:57 AM
Well, to elaborate honor killings are used quite commonly to describe murder of a family member for a perceived slight against the honour of the killer and/or his family. I have seen it used frequently, for example, to describe the murder of gay or transgendered children of both sexes in countries like Turkey. There is also a component of cultural - if not acceptance then at least tolerance/turning the blind eye to this type of murder.
Do we see that with these murders? He seems to be have been on the run since he killed his family and is now doubly on the run. What evidence do we have with tolerance/turning a blind eye to this case?
How, if this is the definition, do we use that to differentiate a crime like this and crimes that are committed as revenge for perceived slights in other cultures?
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 01:41:57 AM
Now, the killing in question is probably more remotely related to it but it is not completely unrelated - the killer is clearly defending his honour, his targets are family members, so the only component that is unclear is whether this type of murder is seen as culturally acceptable at least by part of the culture he lives in. It appears the author of the article is - either rightly or wrongly - implying it is. Do you have any evidence to refute that claim?
All I see is that the author of this article tacked on a bit about what honor killings are at the end of the blurb about a killer who is on the run. I think it makes sense to question whether those items deserved to be linked.
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 01:41:57 AM
It appears the author of the article is - either rightly or wrongly - implying it is.
That he has accomplices suggests that too.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 07, 2015, 03:43:56 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 01:41:57 AM
It appears the author of the article is - either rightly or wrongly - implying it is.
That he has accomplices suggests that too.
The guy who built the bombs for the Boston Marathon had accomplices.
I don't think that these killings can be considered honor killings at all. they seem to be, as DG mentions, the actions of a murderous loon. Had he not started killing out of frustrations over his marriage, he'd likely have done so for some other frustrations in fairly short order.
This certainly is not what is usually meant by an "honour killing".
Such killings have express or implicit sanction by some section of the local culture - they are motivated when someone breaks cultural norms (for example, a daughter who has sex out of wedlock, or a child who defies their parents' choice of marriage-partner, or who is gay). The "honour" of the family is seen as impaired by the actions of the child, leading to the murder of the child.
There is no cultural sanction anywhere that encourages one to kill one's own family because they oppose a child's marriage. That totally reverses the dynamic of an "honour killing".
3 fucking post and everyone attacking each other for supposedly questionable choices of words. Grumbler's influence is growing
That is one way to get somebody to forever hold their peace.
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 06:32:29 AM
The guy who built the bombs for the Boston Marathon had accomplices.
That guy had a Cause. This case was a personal vendetta. It's possible the dude had a cult-like influence on some of his friends and could just get people to do his bidding, but more likely they agreed that he had been unconscionably wronged.
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
3 fucking post and everyone attacking each other for supposedly questionable choices of words. Grumbler's influence is growing
:lmfao: No. You need to look up the term "honor killing." it has an actual meaning that isn't dependent on your perception of " questionable choices of words." Once you understand what the words mean, you will understand the discussion.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 07, 2015, 11:04:53 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 06:32:29 AM
The guy who built the bombs for the Boston Marathon had accomplices.
That guy had a Cause. This case was a personal vendetta. It's possible the dude had a cult-like influence on some of his friends and could just get people to do his bidding, but more likely they agreed that he had been unconscionably wronged.
The perps in honor killings don't generally go on the lam (why should they? They did nothing wrong). I think you are making a mountain out of the molehill that this perp may (or may not) have had accomplices.
You could be right, but there's lots to indicate that you probably are not.
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 07, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
3 fucking post and everyone attacking each other for supposedly questionable choices of words. Grumbler's influence is growing
:lmfao: No. You need to look up the term "honor killing." it has an actual meaning that isn't dependent on your perception of " questionable choices of words." Once you understand what the words mean, you will understand the discussion.
I'd also argue that in this instance terminology is really important as article by tacking on that last few bits with honor killings seems to be suggesting this is some sort of endemic thing to Muslim culture instead of simply focusing on how this was a crazed killer. Can easily feed into the whole broken/evil Muslim culture narrative when this really doesn't seem to be an example of that at all.
Sometimes a killing spree is just a killing spree. :rolleyes:
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 12:08:13 PM
Sometimes a killing spree is just a killing spree. :rolleyes:
The dying utterance of General Custer.
Quote from: PDH on April 07, 2015, 05:27:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 12:08:13 PM
Sometimes a killing spree is just a killing spree. :rolleyes:
The dying utterance of General Custer.
Or perhaps "Freud's lesser-known aphorism". ;)
Quote from: PDH on April 07, 2015, 05:27:58 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 12:08:13 PM
Sometimes a killing spree is just a killing spree. :rolleyes:
The dying utterance of General Custer.
Thanks General Steele.