Good ridance to scum
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/fallout-continues-univ-oklahoma-racist-video-29520570
Quote
Fallout Continues at Univ. of Oklahoma Over Racist Video
NORMAN, Okla. — Mar 10, 2015, 2:11 AM ET
By SEAN MURPHY Associated Press
A racist chant by several members of a University of Oklahoma fraternity that was caught on video led to outrage from the school's president and the organization's banishment from campus, but fallout from the incident appears far from over.
President David Boren said an investigation is underway to determine if some of the students could be expelled for violating Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits racial discrimination. The video, which was posted online, shows several people on a bus participating in a chant that included a racial slur, referenced lynching and indicated black students would never be admitted to OU's chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon.
"We are also going to look at any individual perpetrators, particularly those that we think took a lead in this kind of activity," Boren said.
A top high school recruit de-committed from the university on Monday after seeing the video. And an online fundraiser has been launched to help support an African-American cook who worked at the fraternity for about a decade.
The incident also had a profound effect on many of the roughly 1,400 black students who attend the university's Norman campus.
"I was shocked they were just doing it openly on the bus, like they were proud of it," said Jared Scarborough, a junior in construction science who is African-American. "From the chant, you could tell they had done it before. It wasn't a first-time thing. And it was everybody. And the fist-pumping."
The Greek letters were removed Monday from the side of the sprawling, sand-colored brick house on a street lined with fraternity and sorority houses just west of the center of campus, and members were ordered to have their belongings removed by midnight Tuesday.
The Oklahoma football team decided to protest rather than practice on Monday. At the team's indoor practice facility, coach Bob Stoops led the way as players, joined by athletic director Joe Castiglione, walked arm-in-arm, wearing black.
Boren attended a pre-dawn rally organized by students Monday morning and lambasted those fraternity members as "disgraceful" and called their behavior "reprehensible."
"This is not who we are," Boren said at a midday news conference. "I'd be glad if they left. I might even pay the bus fare for them."
National leaders of Sigma Alpha Epsilon said that its investigation confirmed members took part in the chant and announced it would close the local chapter. The national group said it was "embarrassed" by the "unacceptable and racist" behavior.
The fraternity also said in a statement late Monday that the chant was not a part of fraternity tradition.
Boren said members of the fraternity were "not totally forthcoming," and he was still trying to find out who was on the bus so the school could consider disciplinary actions.
In Washington, White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said the efforts by the university and the national fraternity to repudiate the racist comments were "an appropriate step."
It's unclear who recorded the video, when it was recorded and who initially posted it online. Boren suggested it was likely taken by another student who didn't agree with what was being chanted.
OU Unheard, a black student group on campus, posted a link to the video after someone anonymously called it to the group's attention Sunday afternoon, communications director Alexis Hall said Monday.
"We immediately needed to share that with the OU student body," said Hall, a junior. "For students to say they're going to lynch an entire group of people. ... It's disgusting."
The video appears to have been taken on a charter bus, with at least one of the chanting young men wearing a tuxedo.
Telephone and email messages left Monday with several members of the fraternity seeking comment on the video were not returned. Other members declined to comment.
North Mesquite High School football star Jean Delance, a top offensive lineman prospect, told KTVT television and KRLD-AM in Dallas-Fort Worth that he would not attend Oklahoma. He said he spoke Sunday night with coach Bob Stoops, but wasn't told about the incident.
"I'm very disappointed in the coaches not letting me know," Delance told KRLD. "But that was just heart-breaking right there."
The University of Oklahoma, located in the southern Oklahoma City suburb of Norman, has about 27,000 students, about 5 percent of whom are black. The Greek system is largely segregated.
I did like how the response from some OU fans has been 'but Texas is far more racist'! Um....ok may not be the best time to throw stones Okies.
Kind of dumbfounded that even frat boys are that stupid. Not surprised they are actually that evil but amazed they openly admitted it.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 09:40:30 AM
I did like how the response from some OU fans has been 'but Texas is far more racist'! Um....ok may not be the best time to throw stones Okies.
Kind of dumbfounded that even frat boys are that stupid. Not surprised they are actually that evil but amazed they openly admitted it.
:ultra: :ultra:
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 09:40:30 AM
Kind of dumbfounded that even frat boys are that stupid. Not surprised they are actually that evil but amazed they openly admitted it.
I'm not. Greek life is one big example of privilege combined with the expectation of zero consequences.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 10, 2015, 09:54:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 09:40:30 AM
Kind of dumbfounded that even frat boys are that stupid. Not surprised they are actually that evil but amazed they openly admitted it.
I'm not. Greek life is one big example of privilege combined with the expectation of zero consequences.
At what university did you find this true? I belong to a fraternity and didn't find this true (though I knew some people for whom it was true; not all of them in fraternities/sororities).
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 10, 2015, 09:54:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 09:40:30 AM
Kind of dumbfounded that even frat boys are that stupid. Not surprised they are actually that evil but amazed they openly admitted it.
I'm not. Greek life is one big example of privilege combined with the expectation of zero consequences.
See: Euro crisis.
Quote from: grumbler on March 10, 2015, 10:01:53 AM
At what university did you find this true?
Adams College.
QuoteI belong to a fraternity and didn't find this true (though I knew some people for whom it was true; not all of them in fraternities/sororities).
When I mean "Greek Life", I didn't mean actual Greek life when you were attending the Lyceum. :P
Quote from: grumbler on March 10, 2015, 10:01:53 AM
At what university did you find this true?
Well we had problems with this at Southwestern University. When I arrived there was a huge scandal where members of one of the frats were screaming racist things to a black woman on their property...who was a member of the board of trustees. Then a major providing minors with booze bust on one of the others. And now fresh in the news a major rape conspiracy where the frat drugged a bunch of women at one of their parties and then raped them all. Needless to say, as an alumni, I have been demanding that frat be removed from campus and have their charter revoked. Too long in coming IMO.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:07:22 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 10, 2015, 10:05:03 AM
See: Euro crisis.
:lol:
Syt has been driving to the net like a paint panzer this week, hasn't he? Must be March Madness.
Just particularly bored at work. :P
Quote from: Barrister on March 10, 2015, 09:49:00 AM
:ultra: :ultra:
Context: rape conspiracy scandal at my alma mater at the moment.
http://kxan.com/2015/02/27/victims-speak-out-at-southwestern-university-sexual-assault-forum/
Yeah dysfunctional shit created by stupid social clubs!
So no I am not saying all frats are evil, what I was saying was I am not surprised that this one is evil since a few of them clearly are.
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
That is a good point but frats seem to legitimize a lot of the silliness.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
Largest and most organized would probably be the army.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
And therefore I am not surprised an Oklahoma Frat had such vile things to say on the subject of race. The frats in question serve no other purpose than social bonding and cultivating certain values. If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible? Does it matter?
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 10, 2015, 10:29:18 AM
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
That is a good point but frats seem to legitimize a lot of the silliness.
The problem is I can't think of anything to compare to, to decide if one group of young dummies is worse that the other group of young dummies and what makes them worse. Maybe a sports team, but outside of American football you are talking about a smaller number of dummies. Outside of the racial portion (which I bet is still there but tempered because the team would be more diverse) I bet the average American college football team would give the average fraternity a run for there money in silliness and shenanigans.
I think it is mostly mob mentality and group think among the very worst demographic group that causes things like this, not the fraternity. I could be wrong, and there may be some chapters or campuses that have a culture that fosters it, but even back in the late 80s and early 90s things were changing. Risk management and liability were a big deal even back then, I can't imagine how hard they hammer that stuff into kids' heads these days. It probably just gets ignored because large groups of young men do whatever the hell they want. #yolo
Why is Syt so happy?
Did he find a dick sneaking into his anus or somethin?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 10, 2015, 10:31:06 AM
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
Largest and most organized would probably be the army.
Yeah that's true, but the army is run and led by adults, and serious and disciplined adults* at that. The mice probably get up to quite a bit of nonsense when the cats are away, but no where near what happens on a college campus. Fraternities are a group of boys being led and managed by other boys, with maybe some direct alumni guidance and a national organization that could be 2000 miles away.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:41:35 AM
Risk management and liability were a big deal even back then, I can't imagine how hard they hammer that stuff into kids' heads these days. It probably just gets ignored because large groups of young men do whatever the hell they want. #yolo
It is rather dumbfounding.
Quote from: Siege on March 10, 2015, 10:46:07 AM
Why is Syt so happy?
Did he find a dick sneaking into his anus or somethin?
Siege, I'm flattered by your insinuation, but I'm not interested.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:47:21 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 10, 2015, 10:31:06 AM
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
Largest and most organized would probably be the army.
Yeah that's true, but the army is run and led by adults, and serious and disciplined adults* at that. The mice probably get up to quite a bit of nonsense when the cats are away, but no where near what happens on a college campus. Fraternities are a group of boys being led and managed by other boys, with maybe some direct alumni guidance and a national organization that could be 2000 miles away.
Yes, I'm in agreement with your main point. I'm implying also that if fraternities cannot effectively self-regulate then the authorities need to step in, on a case by case basis perhaps.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
And therefore I am not surprised an Oklahoma Frat had such vile things to say on the subject of race. The frats in question serve no other purpose than social bonding and cultivating certain values. If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible? Does it matter?
Not to be too pedantic, but I guarantee there is no national fraternity that has racism, especially public displays of racism among their values.
It may be something that shows up in the local culture of a chapter, like it did here, and if so they should do the same thing and nuke the chapter but blaming the national organization and/or other chapter of that fraternity or other completely separate fraternities doesn't make sense.
You can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity. Maybe fraternities are a bad idea, but it would be because large groups of drunk 18-22 year old boys is a bad thing, whether the writing on their t-shirts is in Greek or any other language.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:59:32 AM
Not to be too pedantic, but I guarantee there is no national fraternity that has racism, especially public displays of racism among their values.
Of course not. I am not talking about the national organization I am talking about the version that exists on that campus and the values they are actually cultivating.
QuoteYou can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity
Sure. But how productive is it to have organizations that exist where the perception is their purpose is to facilitate that? Not a big fan of single gender organizations anyway.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:59:32 AM
You can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity. Maybe fraternities are a bad idea, but it would be because large groups of drunk 18-22 year old boys is a bad thing, whether the writing on their t-shirts is in Greek or any other language.
I think you are wasting your breathe. I think the anti-greek crowd is far more comfortable with ignorance than enlightenment.
Quote from: grumbler on March 10, 2015, 11:07:56 AM
I think you are wasting your breathe. I think the anti-greek crowd is far more comfortable with ignorance than enlightenment.
Actually I was finding his arguments convincing and thought we were having a nice discussion. But thanks for you input. Can you not be a jerk for once? Maybe?
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 11:03:17 AM
Sure. But how productive is it to have organizations that exist where the perception is their purpose is to facilitate that? Not a big fan of single gender organizations anyway.
I don't think we should be banning or penalizing things because others' perception of them is wrong. It doesn't make for very interesting articles, and thus they don't get many clicks, so you don't hear about the enormous number of hours of volunteer work that Greek students do, or all of the charitable fundraising they do, or that the Greek GPA is almost always higher than the non-Greek GPA (based on 8 seconds of 'research').
I'm also not convinced that Greek students are any worse than the normal student, just like any other well known group they are easier to identify and label.
If a normal average student cheats on a test he is an idiot and if anyone else finds out they just assume he is an idiot. If a college football player cheats on a test the entire program is corrupt and all football players are uneducated thugs who don't even belong on college campuses.
If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots. If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.
As I acknowledged there are problems, and there are bad apples everywhere but fraternities and sororities have a huge net benefit to their campuses and the surrounding communities. That is just harder to see and less interesting than the stupid shit that a small number of their members do.
Young German men gathering in groups might do something silly sometimes, but don't blame the runes. :rolleyes:
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 11:41:10 AM
If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots. If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.
That's the same for any visible affiliation. If you are part of a group that stands apart from regular society - whether you belong to an ethnic or religious minority, to a youth subculture of some sort, clearly display some sort of political allegiance - then yeah you are not only going to be judged more harshly than "undifferentiated people", your actions are going to reflect on the group you are part on.
That's generally how it works.
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 11:41:10 AM
I don't think we should be banning or penalizing things because others' perception of them is wrong.
No we should only ban or penalize things when they do something that makes them worth banning or penalizing. Just because I am not a fan of a concept does not mean I want them banned.
QuoteIt doesn't make for very interesting articles, and thus they don't get many clicks, so you don't hear about the enormous number of hours of volunteer work that Greek students do, or all of the charitable fundraising they do, or that the Greek GPA is almost always higher than the non-Greek GPA (based on 8 seconds of 'research').
I am well aware of those things. I lived on a Greek dominated campus for five years. I don't read clickbait articles. I also saw all the other things they did. The massive parties that typically led to chaos and destruction were always their annual events. Now that does not make them responsible for what everybody does during those events but they very much gloried in their reputation. A bit too much: see massive booze bust. But it was a bit creepy that all non-Greeks were not invited except for...the freshmen. I mean you are kind of waving the flag of 'we are committing criminal activity here'. I am talking about specific fraternities who did specific things.
QuoteI'm also not convinced that Greek students are any worse than the normal student, just like any other well known group they are easier to identify and label.
They are organizations that sponsor events and have to take responsibility for the culture they create since that is what their entire purpose is supposed to be: to create a good culture on campus.
QuoteIf a normal average student cheats on a test he is an idiot and if anyone else finds out they just assume he is an idiot. If a college football player cheats on a test the entire program is corrupt and all football players are uneducated thugs who don't even belong on college campuses.
I never said all fraternities were bad. But they have the capability of being so due to the power of groupthink and all that, it is the same sort of thing that would make them very positive in the right circumstances.
QuoteIf an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots. If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.
Except we are not talking about isolated people doing things off campus. We are talking about things occurring by many members at events sponsored by the frat. The frat should be ultimately responsible, especially when we are talking about people they selected as being 'good fits' for what culture they are propagating. And, in general, they are.
QuoteAs I acknowledged there are problems, and there are bad apples everywhere but fraternities and sororities have a huge net benefit to their campuses and the surrounding communities. That is just harder to see and less interesting than the stupid shit that a small number of their members do.
Having been on a campus completely Greek dominated and one that was not I vastly prefer the latter. Still tons of honors and service coed service fraternities to do charity work and have a positive impact. But that is just a preference. If a fraternity is creating a toxic culture the organization needs to be punished, hopefully the others will be careful to monitor what they are seen to sponsor in the future.
Doh sorry for the long Languish-style paragraph-by-paragraph response there.
Ed Anger was Alpha Beta rush chairman 3 years running.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 11:10:02 AM
Actually I was finding his arguments convincing and thought we were having a nice discussion. But thanks for you input. Can you not be a jerk for once? Maybe?
I guess I was wording it too nicely when i asked you to tone down the grade school in the "traumatized Jews" thread, so you are bowing me off. :(
Okay. I can live with that. Pity, though. You'd be a great contributor if you put some thought into what you wrote.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 10, 2015, 12:06:02 PM
Ed Anger was Alpha Beta rush chairman 3 years running.
Two Revenge of the Nerds" references in the same day? You trying for some kind of record?
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:11:17 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 10, 2015, 10:01:53 AM
At what university did you find this true?
Well we had problems with this at Southwestern University. When I arrived there was a huge scandal where members of one of the frats were screaming racist things to a black woman on their property...who was a member of the board of trustees. Then a major providing minors with booze bust on one of the others. And now fresh in the news a major rape conspiracy where the frat drugged a bunch of women at one of their parties and then raped them all. Needless to say, as an alumni, I have been demanding that frat be removed from campus and have their charter revoked. Too long in coming IMO.
Link!? :wacko:
EDIT: Never mind, already provided. Crazy shit :yuk:
I'm lovin' it. The song, not the rape.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible? Does it matter?
I think it does matter. If it's the frat that's responsible, you can in theory end the problem by banning the frat. If it's the members, they'll probably continue their behavior without being in a formal organization.
Quote from: Jacob on March 10, 2015, 11:58:11 AM
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 11:41:10 AM
If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots. If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.
That's the same for any visible affiliation. If you are part of a group that stands apart from regular society - whether you belong to an ethnic or religious minority, to a youth subculture of some sort, clearly display some sort of political allegiance - then yeah you are not only going to be judged more harshly than "undifferentiated people", your actions are going to reflect on the group you are part on.
That's generally how it works.
Yep for sure.
That post was a hot mess, I got distracted while typing it then came back and tried to change some things, then lost interest and just hit 'Post' to be done with it.
I was responding to Valmy questioning a group's right to exist because of the public's incorrect perception of the group. I don't think there are many groups that get as bad a rap as college fraternities do, and the vast majority of it is not true. The major scandal that pops end every year or so it always reported while all of the good stuff they do is never mentioned. I suppose they could go out and advertise all of the fundraising and charity/volunteer work they do but that sort of defeats the purpose. They don't do it to get praise from outsiders, they do it because it should be done.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 12:05:33 PM
Doh sorry for the long Languish-style paragraph-by-paragraph response there.
:lol:
It's all good, I have mostly lost interest though, so hopefully you don't mind me not responding in kind. I think we are mostly going in circles. I was mostly responding to the tone of your posts
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 09:40:30 AM
Kind of dumbfounded that even frat boys are that stupid. Not surprised they are actually that evil but amazed they openly admitted it.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
And therefore I am not surprised an Oklahoma Frat had such vile things to say on the subject of race. The frats in question serve no other purpose than social bonding and cultivating certain values. If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible? Does it matter?
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 11:03:17 AM
Sure. But how productive is it to have organizations that exist where the perception is their purpose is to facilitate that? Not a big fan of single gender organizations anyway.
You came across as someone who thought fraternities have vile values, with stupid and evil members and question their existence because of the general public's perceptions. Blaming an entire organization, or even the overall idea of that organization because of the actions of some 18-22 year old kids doesn't make much sense to me. If there are specific actions or problems then address those, and if that means an entire chapter, or even national organization, were to get nuked then that's fine but don't vilify 9 million mostly good kids because a minuscule number are bad people.
QuoteGrade Point
Is SAE racist? Or did a racist chant on a bus tarnish 15,000 brothers?
Washington Post
As a racist video from the University of Oklahoma's Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter went viral Sunday night, one comment echoed again and again: They knew all the words.
The video apparently shows a bus full of SAE brothers wearing tuxedos in a celebratory mood chanting what sounds like: "There will never be a n—— SAE/There will never be a n—– SAE/You can hang 'em from a tree, but it will never start with me/There will never be a n—– SAE."
As people struggled to understand, many asked whether this was an isolated incident or a symbol of a much larger, systemic, culture of racism. Many found a pattern at SAE, one of the country's largest and most influential fraternities, pointing to everything from the fraternity's Web site to a Confederate flag at one of its houses to a series of racial incidents over the years at chapters around the country. Others said the 15,000 current members of SAE are in no way represented by the events at OU.
But there was a unified chorus: There is a problem at this chapter now.
The fraternity's national headquarters quickly apologized, condemned the video, closed its University of Oklahoma chapter and suspended all of the members from the fraternity. The university's president responded swiftly as well, speaking against racism, joining a rally on campus Monday, and then expelling two students who led the chant Tuesday. (Some criticized that expulsion as a violation of free speech at a public university.)
The video also had an immediate effect on Oklahoma's image. Oklahoma Sooners football recruit Jean Delance, a four-star offensive lineman who committed to play football at the Big 12 school in November, visited the campus in Norman, Okla., with his mother this past weekend.
Then he saw the video. He withdrew his commitment.
"Very uneducated people," Delance told CBS 11 in Dallas-Fort Worth on Monday. "It was just very disturbing to me. I didn't like it."
Some students who know one of the two SAE members who were expelled identified him as a 19-year-old freshman from Dallas who attended the Jesuit College Preparatory School, a prestigious, private, all-boys school located in north Dallas that is 69 percent white. Officials with that school said Tuesday that it appears a former student there was in the racist video. The school did not publicly identify the student.
"In the recent video regarding OU and the SAE fraternity it appears that a graduate from Jesuit Dallas is leading the racist chant," the Jesuit school's president, Mike Earsing, said in a statement. "I am appalled by the actions in the video and extremely hurt by the pain this has caused our community. It is unconscionable and very sad that in 2015 we still live in a society where this type of bigotry and racism takes place."
Efforts to reach the student Tuesday through an Oklahoma University e-mail account were unsuccessful, and no one answered a telephone number for his family residence in Dallas.
Late Tuesday, that student — Parker Rice — and the family of the second student, Levi Pettit, issued public apologies for their participation in the chant. Rice, through his father, told The Dallas Morning News that the event was fueled by alcohol and that he joined in on a chant he was taught.
"I am deeply sorry for what I did Saturday night. It was wrong and reckless. I made a horrible mistake by joining into the singing and encouraging others to do the same," Rice said, according to the statement. "On Monday, I withdrew from the university, and sadly, at this moment our family is not able to be in our home because of threatening calls as well as frightening talk on social media.
"I know everyone wants to know why or how this happened. I admit it likely was fueled by alcohol consumed at the house before the bus trip, but that's not an excuse. Yes, the song was taught to us, but that too doesn't work as an explanation. It's more important to acknowledge what I did and what I didn't do. I didn't say no, and I clearly dismissed an important value I learned at my beloved high school, Dallas Jesuit. We were taught to be 'Men for Others.' I failed in that regard, and in those moments, I also completely ignored the core values and ethics I learned from my parents and others."
The statements did not address who taught the students the chant or why.
The same night the racist video surfaced, a Confederate flag was displayed in the SAE house at Oklahoma State University — about an hour and a half north, in Stillwater, Okla. — clearly visible from outside, the student newspaper The O'Colly reported.
They quoted an e-mail from Chris Bringaze, the chapter president: "'A brother who lives in our house displayed the Confederate flag in his personal room,' Bringaze said. 'Sigma Alpha Epsilon does not endorse the Confederate flag nationally nor do we endorse it as a chapter. In addition, the flag has never been a symbol of our fraternity. My fellow chapter leaders and I have asked the brother to remove the flag from his room.'"
He also said, according to the paper: "'Sigma Alpha Epsilon is aware of the video and is both shocked and appalled at what we have seen. Those types of behaviors are not consistent with our values whatsoever.'"
SAE was founded 159 years ago in Alabama, and in a detailed SAE page describing its long history, certain phrases stood out to some in light of the accusations in Oklahoma. Among them is a description of SAE as "the only national fraternity founded in the antebellum South," and boasts of how of its 400 or so members during the Civil War "369 went to war for the Confederate States and seven for the Union Army."
A natural statistic for a group based in Alabama, or a sign that the fraternity was holding its history as an important principle for its future?
SAE's national organization said it almost immediately validated that members of its Oklahoma chapter participated in the video and acted within hours to shut the chapter down.
"This type of racist behavior will not be tolerated and is not consistent with the values and morals of our fraternity," SAE leaders said in a statement. "This is absolutely not who we are. Sigma Alpha Epsilon is not a racist, sexist or bigoted fraternity."
In the Greek-letter world, SAE is a powerhouse, with nearly 250 chapters and colonies across the country and roughly 200,000 living alumni, according to the fraternity. That national reach is what concerns many who have argued in recent days that the video could be a sign of something more pervasive. But experts said that what happens at one school might not be representative of the fraternity as a whole.
"They are traditionally very strong at most of the campuses they're on," said Alan D. DeSantis, a communication professor at the University of Kentucky and author of a book about Greek campus life. "Strong in numbers and prestige."
DeSantis, who was a member of the Sigma Pi fraternity at James Madison University, said in recent years he has served as a faculty adviser to the SAE chapter at Kentucky. He said that it is difficult to generalize about behavior of any fraternity's members nationally because the culture of their local chapters can vary significantly from one school to another. He also said the organizations can run into trouble when they don't have enough adult supervision.
"The way we manage Greek life is very dangerous," he said. "The system isn't set up in a way where there is any oversight."
DeSantis said that the incident in Oklahoma "so easily could have happened anywhere in America, and not just in the Greek system. It easily could have happened with a group of buddies sitting on the back of a pickup truck that never went to college."
SAE is not the only well-known national fraternity with Confederate roots: The Kappa Alpha Order honors Robert E. Lee as its spirtual founder.
On Reddit, someone posted a month ago about a similar chant allegedly heard from SAE brothers at the University of Texas.
And over the years, there have been more than a handful of racist incidents reported at campuses across the country involving SAE brothers and chapters, including parties with themes that played off of ugly stereotypes of black people. In 2002, Syracuse suspended the chapter after an SAE brother went to a bar with his face painted black.
Many of those resurfaced on social media this week.
I'm an #OU graduate. There were issues with #SAE when I was a student there 20 years ago. http://t.co/kxWWnKhWtq
— Omar L. Gallaga (@omarg) March 10, 2015
SAE, in its statement, said that it is investigating other reports of inappropriate acts, but the fraternity also said that there is nothing in its history or tradition that would support racism or bigotry.
"Several other incidents with chapters or members have been brought to the attention of the headquarters staff and leaders, and each of those instances will be investigated for further action," according to the fraternity. "Some reports have alleged that the racist chant in the video is part of a Sigma Alpha Epsilon tradition, which is completely false. The fraternity has a number of songs that have been in existence for more than a century, but the chant is in no way endorsed by the organization nor part of any education whatsoever."
But some fraternity brothers, and former brothers, are wondering if there is a pervasive racism there.
William Bruce James, II wrote about his experiences as a black man at SAE at the University of Oklahoma; he said after he pledged there 14 years ago, no other black students joined. He had always wanted to join Omega Psi Phi, a predominantly African American fraternity, and only walked into the SAE chapter because an old friend wanted to check it out.
But he liked it, and he liked the people. He felt comfortable. And some part of him thought it might be good for the other members, too.
"I knew when I joined that house, that I'd be looked at differently. Why would he want to be in that house? And I knew it would come from both sides.
"I remember hearing people saying things about S-A-E for having a black member. I remember being shoved into a wall at the school gym by some fellow BLACK MEN who swiped the letters on the front of my shirt and said, 'Whose house is THAT, brother?!'
"But it's been 14 years since I walked in, and there still hasn't been a third BLACK MAN. I thought we were different. Maybe we weren't. Maybe I was just being hopeful. But I believed. I believed in S-A-E. I believed in the True Gentlemen. I believed my brothers were my brothers....
"But then I saw that video. I saw that video speaking of lynching me instead of ever letting me sign....
"You Failed ME! Member 261-057. Your boys sang in unison. They may not know where the song came from or who made it up or even what all the words really mean, but they sing it so often they know all the words whether they want to or not.
"I wanted to be an Omega. My heroes from television were all Omegas. My cousins are Kappas and Alphas....I went..S-A-E? Shame on me. But hopefully, there will never be another BLACKS-A-E. "
QuoteDeSantis said that the incident in Oklahoma "so easily could have happened anywhere in America, and not just in the Greek system. It easily could have happened with a group of buddies sitting on the back of a pickup truck that never went to college."
Yeah me and my boys are always sitting around singing about committing hate crimes. Happens everywhere in America everyday.
Wonder if the students will sue to get reinstated? They'd almost certainly win.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/us/expulsion-of-two-oklahoma-students-leads-to-free-speech-debate.html?_r=0
QuoteNORMAN, Okla. — The University of Oklahoma's decision to expel two fraternity members who led a racist chant on a bus provoked criticism Wednesday from several legal experts who said that the students' words, however odious, were protected by the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech.
"The courts are very clear that hateful, racist speech is protected by the First Amendment," said Erwin Chemerinsky, a constitutional scholar and dean of the law school at the University of California, Irvine.
Official punishment for speech could be legal if the students' chant constituted a direct threat, leading a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety, or if it seemed likely to provoke an immediate violent response, according to Mr. Chemerinsky and several other legal scholars, liberal and conservative alike.
But in this case, these experts said, there is no evidence of any direct threat or provocation, and as a publicly financed institution, the university is subject to constitutional boundaries.
The University of Oklahoma has been in an uproar since videos surfaced of members of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity chanting a song Saturday night in which they used racial slurs to boast that they would never accept an African-American member. The song also referred to lynching, with the words "You can hang 'em from a tree." The first video was recorded as fraternity members and their dates rode a bus to a formal event, was later posted online and was discovered and publicized on Sunday by O.U. Unheard, a black student group.
On Tuesday, the university's president, David L. Boren, notified two students who led the singing that "You will be expelled because of your leadership role in leading a racist and exclusionary chant which has created a hostile educational environment for others."
Eugene Volokh, a constitutional law expert at the University of California, Los Angeles, and prominent legal blogger, wrote Wednesday that "similar things could be said about a vast range of other speech" including praise for Muslim groups like Hamas that call for destruction of Israel, which could make Jews uncomfortable, or calls by black students for violent resistance to white police officers, which white students could interpret as hostile.
Despite the legal concerns expressed by many scholars, the university's handling of the incident — including the swift shutting of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter and its fraternity house and the expulsion of the two students — has gained wide support on campus among black and white students.
Students interviewed Wednesday said they backed Mr. Boren's decision to expel the two, focusing in particular on the reference to lynching.
"I think what they said was not just offensive," said Maggie Savage, 20, a sophomore. "If you do anything to make students in a community feel unsafe, you lose the privilege of being able to attend the university."
One of the two students expelled, Parker Rice, 19, a freshman, apologized for his actions in a statement to The Associated Press. He wrote, "I made a horrible mistake by joining into the singing and encouraging others to do the same."
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
In the statement, Mr. Rice said that his family members in Dallas were not able to be in their home because of "threatening calls as well as frightening talk on social media."
The parents of another Dallas-area student seen in the video, Levi Pettit, issued an apology online. "We were as shocked and saddened by this news as anyone," read the statement from Brody and Susan Pettit. "Of course, we are sad for our son — but more importantly, we apologize to the community he has hurt."
The national office of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, in Evanston, Ill., said it planned to expel all members of the Oklahoma chapter from the national organization and that it supported the university's decision to expel the two students.
Mr. Boren, in an interview Monday as he considered what action to take, said that he was examining the relevance of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits racial discrimination by agencies that receive federal funds and, federal officials have said, forbids creation of a "racially hostile environment" in schools.
But Title VI is addressed to literal discrimination, and statements by students in a private setting do not come near to violating it, said Geoffrey R. Stone, a professor of law at the University of Chicago.
A university could discipline students for disrupting classes with irrelevant or uncivil speech, Mr. Stone said, or otherwise disrupting the operations of the school.
"But it's hard to make that case here," he said of the Oklahoma situation. "The statements were made in the innocuous setting of a bus, and any disruption came from the showing of the video, not from the students' speech," Mr. Stone said.
In a break with most legal experts, Daria Roithmayr, a law professor at the University of Southern California who has written about the interplay of law and racism, said that a plausible argument could be made that the students' action caused a "material disruption" in the university's educational mission and was not protected by the First Amendment.
"The entire university now has to repudiate the bigotry of a fraternity," she said, and for black students, "it's a massive disruption."
The University of Oklahoma has a code of "rights and responsibilities" prohibiting "conduct that is sufficiently severe and pervasive that it alters the conditions of education or employment and creates an environment that a reasonable person would find intimidating, harassing or humiliating."
Whether the Saturday night chant amounted to such a violation, legal experts said, the code could not take precedence over First Amendment rights.
Private universities are not governed by the First Amendment, which applies to governmental actions, and may generally have more leeway to expel or otherwise punish students for speech. But most have codes of conduct and disciplinary procedures that amount to contractual obligations, for administrators and students.
A dispute over punishment in a private university would be "a matter of contract law, rather than constitutional law," and might involve due process of "fundamental fairness" rather than the First Amendment, said John F. Banzhaf III, a professor of public interest law at George Washington University Law School.
SAE was the fraternity with the worst reputation back over 20 years ago when I was in college. They got into trouble with the administration multiple times while I was there, and I think they came close to being disbanded.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 11, 2015, 07:45:33 PM
Wonder if the students will sue to get reinstated? They'd almost certainly win.
Yeah it would be awesome if they could keep their names in the media with a big court case. That should help with future employment.
Quote from: grumbler on March 10, 2015, 11:07:56 AM
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:59:32 AM
You can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity. Maybe fraternities are a bad idea, but it would be because large groups of drunk 18-22 year old boys is a bad thing, whether the writing on their t-shirts is in Greek or any other language.
I think you are wasting your breathe. I think the anti-greek crowd is far more comfortable with ignorance than enlightenment.
So, your argument that fraternities are not full of assholes and jerks is that you were a member? :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 01:30:31 AM
So, your argument that fraternities are not full of assholes and jerks is that you were a member? :hmm:
Really? You muster up all the reading ability in English which you possess, and this is the outcome? No, that's not my argument, or close to it. My argument uses big words that have obviously gone right over your head.
Quote from: Valmy on March 10, 2015, 10:38:31 PM
QuoteDeSantis said that the incident in Oklahoma "so easily could have happened anywhere in America, and not just in the Greek system. It easily could have happened with a group of buddies sitting on the back of a pickup truck that never went to college."
Yeah me and my boys are always sitting around singing about committing hate crimes. Happens everywhere in America everyday.
I know, it is why I left. :(
QuoteDeSantis said that the incident in Oklahoma "so easily could have happened anywhere in America, and not just in the Greek system. It easily could have happened with a group of buddies sitting on the back of a pickup truck that never went to college."
My pickup truck didn't go to college either. I hope it's not racist.
Quote from: Martinus on March 12, 2015, 01:30:31 AM
So, your argument that fraternities are not full of assholes and jerks is that you were a member? :hmm:
Note that he says nothing about curmudgeons or codgers. :P
We are all about the outrage cycle now. A handful of college students say something really stupid, and that becomes national news, and will probably remain so until something else stupid happens that we can all be offended by.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 10, 2015, 10:31:06 AM
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys. They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.
Largest and most organized would probably be the army.
Yeah, just see squaddies rampaging through Salisbury on a Friday night :ph34r:
Quote from: sbr on March 10, 2015, 11:41:10 AM
I don't think we should be banning or penalizing things because others' perception of them is wrong. It doesn't make for very interesting articles, and thus they don't get many clicks, so you don't hear about the enormous number of hours of volunteer work that Greek students do, or all of the charitable fundraising they do, or that the Greek GPA is almost always higher than the non-Greek GPA (based on 8 seconds of 'research').
I'm also not convinced that Greek students are any worse than the normal student, just like any other well known group they are easier to identify and label.
If a normal average student cheats on a test he is an idiot and if anyone else finds out they just assume he is an idiot. If a college football player cheats on a test the entire program is corrupt and all football players are uneducated thugs who don't even belong on college campuses.
If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots. If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.
As I acknowledged there are problems, and there are bad apples everywhere but fraternities and sororities have a huge net benefit to their campuses and the surrounding communities. That is just harder to see and less interesting than the stupid shit that a small number of their members do.
Because others perceptions of the national organization are wrong, sure. It could also be argued, though, that if the chapter themselves have formed that wrong an impression of the national org's values, the national org could be held responsible for ineffective governance in not correcting the misunderstanding. Given that other chapters seem to hold the same views despite the national org's advice to the contrary, that sounds like a pattern to me.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 12, 2015, 08:41:58 AM
We are all about the outrage cycle now. A handful of college students say something really stupid, and that becomes national news, and will probably remain so until something else stupid happens that we can all be offended by.
your election isn't until next year :(
Not surprising, but this stuff is everywhere among frats.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/penn-state-vows-punish-those-behind-kappa-delta-rho-page-n326031
QuoteKappa Delta Rho Frat Facebook Page
The president of Pennsylvania State University called a fraternity's posting of pictured of nude and partially nude women "truly offensive behavior," but also said the university wouldn't rush to punish members of a Kappa Delta Rho chapter before an investigation is complete.
"I am very committed to making that sure we know exactly who is responsible, and then taking action on those who are responsible," Penn State President Eric Barron told reporters Wednesday. "We will do it right."
Barron urged any victims in the Penn State incident to come forward. "Obviously the evidence is offensive and just plain unacceptable," he said.
State College Police have launched an investigation into the Kappa Delta Rho chapter after a former member came forward with evidence the frat was operating an invite-only Facebook page that showed naked women who appeared to be passed out, hazing rituals and drug deals, authorities said. There have been no arrests.
The site at Penn State was discovered after a woman spotted a topless picture of herself on a page called "Covert Business Operations" while visiting the Kappa Delta Rho house, and confronted members who took the page down, according to a police search warrant filed on Jan. 30.
But a second page called "2.0." was set up shortly thereafter, and the page featured photos of "nude females who appeared to be passed out ... or in other sexual or embarrassing positions," as well as what appeared to be the sale of marijuana and cocaine, the warrant said.
The controversy at Penn State is only the latest involving fraternity members. The University of Oklahoma this month shut down a Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter after members were caught on video signing a racist song, and the college quickly expelled two students it said played a leadership role in the incident.
And Sigma Alpha Mu disbanded its University of Michigan chapter Tuesday over allegations members trashed a resort. Also on Tuesday, the president of the University of Houston suspended Epsilon Xi chapter of Sigma Chi Fraternity over hazing allegations.
The national headwquon Tuesday suspended the Penn State Kappa Delta Rho chapter for a year and said it would be reorganized. "The national leadership of Kappa Delta Rho is committed to hold our brothers accountable for their actions," Joseph S. Rosenberg, executive director of the national fraternity, said in a statement.
Why did they get naked in the first place?
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2015, 08:30:07 AM
Why did they get naked in the first place?
Looks like alcohol and/or drugs.
:o
Not really sure what that says about anything though. :unsure:
Quote from: derspiess on March 19, 2015, 08:30:07 AM
Why did they get naked in the first place?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F794%2F792%2F275.jpg&hash=8dfb588ca07fc8215817fd5cfebd8412020aa71f)
What a benevolent fraternity...
http://news.yahoo.com/finally-know-truth-where-fraternity-learned-racist-song-143719438.html
QuoteWe Finally Know the Truth About Where That Fraternity Learned a Racist Song
The mystery of where members of the University of Oklahoma chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon learned the racist song that appeared in a video that went viral earlier this month—and resulted in the chapter and two students being booted off campus—has been solved. On Friday, OU's president announced that after interviewing more than 160 students, school officials had determined that the chant is "widely known and informally shared" by members of SAE nationally, reported USA Today. OU's investigation determined that students were taught the chant while participating in a leadership cruise four years ago that was sponsored by the national fraternity.
Although the national office of Sigma Alpha Epsilon had previously stated that "the national fraternity does not teach such a racist, hateful chant, and this chant is not part of any education or training," on Friday SAE executive director Blaine Ayers confirmed OU's findings. Ayers said that so far there is no evidence that the offensive chant, "You can hang 'em from a tree...there will never be a [n-word] in SAE," is being sung by each of the fraternity's 237 chapters. However, "We remain committed to identifying and rooting out racist behavior from SAE, and we are actively investigating all of our local organizations to determine whether there are issues in any other location," Ayers said.
Boys will be boys.
Quote from: Jaron on March 30, 2015, 01:53:50 AM
Boys will be boys.
Do they make your heart go "beepbeep beepbeep beepbeep"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_dFVqVyJI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_dFVqVyJI)
Fucktards <_<
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2015/0402/Noose-on-Duke-campus-Do-colleges-have-a-growing-racism-problem
QuoteNoose on Duke campus: Do colleges have a growing racism problem?
The discovery of a noose at Duke University is only the latest in a string of racially charged incidents on campuses nationwide. Colleges might be serving as a crucible for America's seismic racial shifts.
By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer April 2, 2015
Atlanta — Less than a week after the United States Department of Justice indicted a Georgia man for putting a noose around a civil rights statue at the University of Mississippi, students in Durham, N.C., early Wednesday discovered a noose hanging from a tree at Duke University.
The noose is the latest in a series of high-profile incidents at colleges in the United States, including revelations of racist fraternity chants at the University of Oklahoma and other schools, including Duke.
It is a jarring note for Millennials, who see themselves as a post-racial generation. But education analysts don't necessarily view the news with alarm. Data are not conclusive about whether the trend is growing, and college is precisely the place where many students get their first real introduction to what a diverse society looks like.
As America undergoes seismic changes demographically – transitioning to a country where whites will no longer be a majority – it makes sense that the struggle to come to terms would in many cases play out first on college campuses. The reaction to the incidents both from students and administrators points to the growing intolerance for such acts and the further progress that is necessary, experts say.
A lot of people, even of the Millennial generation, grew up believing that this country would always look a certain way, and that the people who were in charge of major institutions would always be of a certain color," says Ed Dorn, a civil rights history professor at the University of Texas in Austin. "But the color line is shifting, and in a few decades this will no longer be a white man's country. That makes them uncomfortable, angry, and anxious."
The question of whether racist incidents are on the rise on campus is difficult to answer; news articles dating back to the 1980s decry the "new racism" on college campuses. The Office of Civil Rights in the US Department of Education reported 555 complaints based on race or ethnicity in 2009 and 860 such incidents in 2013. What's not fully understood is the the influence of social media in creating and publicizing such incidents. More reported incidents could be the product of more awareness – or not.
What is clearer is that talk about a "post-racial" generation is premature, and colleges have a chance to become a more significant player in the struggle to soothe racial animosity.
"Even when parents have positive racial attitudes, children can absorb the prejudices of their peers and the wider cultural milieu," said Beverly Tatum, author of "Can We Talk About Race?" and president of Spelman College in Atlanta, to Inside Higher Ed this year. "We can be sure that all members of our campus population have come to college with stereotypes and prejudices about some other segment of our student body. As a result, higher education institutions have some of the greatest responsibility to challenge misconceptions and explore differences – and to help students develop their capacity to connect across them."
The challenge has been highlighted by recent events, including the federal hate crime indictment last week in the case of the statue of James Meredith at the University of Mississippi. Meredith integrated the University of Mississippi in 1962 with the help of armed guards. Last year, his statue was wrapped with a noose and a Confederate flag.
In addition, last month at the University of Washington, black students protesting police killings of young black males were called "apes" by counterprotesting white students. And last October, racist messages – including the phrase "Kill these niggers!!" – were scrawled on dormitory room doors at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.
"We're seeing a major pushback against the progress that's been made since the 1960s, and one manifestation of that is a racist song by a bunch of drunken fraternity members and incidents like [the noose at] Duke," says Professor Dorn. "It's also important to note that free expression on campus has traditionally not been sanctioned strongly, which means that a few 20-somethings on a college campus, fueled by a few beers, feel that they can get away with a few things. There's a reason we use the word 'sophomoric.' "
But school administrators also bear responsibility for creating a campus culture where racism is seen as acceptable, according to a January 2015 report by Harvard University's Hutchins Center for African and African-American Research. The report noted that many schools created "by and for white men" have been less than welcoming to black students, "even when [they] have been recruited to attend."
At a Northeastern Ivy League school, the center found, black and Hispanic students claimed white students and faculty watched for them to confirm negative stereotypes. Yet there are positive examples, too. At a Southern university, one black study respondent said the school administration had admiringly endured death threats in order to remove racist imagery from campus, though noting that the university "still has a long way to go" in rooting out racism.
Part of the ongoing effort by universities to address racism is to use disturbing incidents as rallying points for racial solidarity.
At the University of Oklahoma, university officials quickly shut down the fraternity house that perpetuated the racist chant. Meanwhile, Duke University president Richard Brodhead gave a speech to thousands of students gathered to protest the noose, saying it is up to each student at the college to reject racism.
"One person put up that noose, but this is the multitude of people who got together to say that's not the Duke we want," he said. "That's not the Duke we're here for, and that's not the Duke we're here to create."