QuoteIvan Massow: Gay men may not realise it, but they are Tory
Gay men tend to be Tory-leaning in their political beliefs without even realising it, London mayoral candidate Ivan Massow has claimed.
Speaking to Attitude magazine, the gay businessman said that gay men have historically been "obliged" to "stand on the left and throw rocks at the right."
Mr Massow was first attracted to the politics of the Conservative Party when he was a boy. He joined his local Young Conservatives and at age 14 became its chairman, the youngest in the country at the time.
Asked whether he faced criticism from the LGBT community for being a prominent Conservative supporter during the 1980s under Margaret Thatcher's premiership, Mr Massow told journalist Paris Lees: "Look, I don't want to bring out a violin, but the lack of support from the gay community at that time, because I attended a conference with Margaret Thatcher for example, really brought me down, because I couldn't tell people what I was trying to achieve.
"And I had a very specific objective. Because I saw the politics of sexuality at the time being very much a case of them and us.
"So we were expected to join the left side, even though we might be quite entrepreneurial and want to own our own houses and believe in small government, and all the things I personally – and especially gay men – tend to be.
"Gay males don't realise it, but when you start to dissemble, and ask them the questions that are multiple choice, they're Tory. But you were obliged to stand on the left and throw rocks at the right. Almost as if they enjoyed it. It was like a class hatred thing and I didn't see that as being productive."
Mr Massow attracted controversy last year when he complained that today's gay scene seems "obsessed" with drugs and sex, resulting in an empty world of hedonism.
He revealed in November that he would seek the Conservative nomination to succeed Boris Johnson as Mayor of London in 2016.
I gotta say he is not that far off. Rabid homophobia is what put many gays off various conservative parties - but other than that gays really do not care for many left wing positions, from reproductive rights, to economy or immigration.
Funny how it goes the other way as well; I used to be a much more unapologetic supporter of the liberal gay agenda until Martinus and garbon came along. Between those two, they'll set you back 50 years hating on fags. At least rufweed is cool, or it'd be a total loss.
I hate him <_<
:rolleyes:
The Left would still be the fashionable choice, even if gay issues were taken off the table. :contract:
Is he suggesting that there's a gay gene that makes you more conservative than the general population?
Quote from: Gups on February 24, 2015, 09:29:31 AM
Is he suggesting that there's a gay gene that makes you more conservative than the general population?
I think he is trying to do something with the gay identity sort of superseding and describing for at least a majority of us, how our politics should be. Ridiculous but whatever it was an interview with Attitude magazine.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 08:08:07 AM
but other than that gays really do not care for many left wing positions, from reproductive rights, to economy or immigration.
:hmm:
Are gay men out on an island such that none of those items have an effect on them or anyone they care about? And gays have no personal stake in left wing ideas on the economy or immigration?
Quote from: Gups on February 24, 2015, 09:29:31 AM
Is he suggesting that there's a gay gene that makes you more conservative than the general population?
No. :huh:
He seems to be suggesting that because gays earn good money and don't have kids they are inclined to low taxation and low services.
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2015, 09:34:47 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 08:08:07 AM
but other than that gays really do not care for many left wing positions, from reproductive rights, to economy or immigration.
:hmm:
Are gay men out on an island such that none of those items have an effect on them or anyone they care about? And gays have no personal stake in left wing ideas on the economy or immigration?
It's not just that. While reproductive rights are largely indifferent to gays personally, they do tend to have more disposable income and are less likely to have kids - so they are more likely to support lower taxes rather than higher taxes, with tax breaks/social welfare designated to help single mothers and the like; and on immigration, at least in Europe, they are likely to have legitimate concerns about immigration from Muslim countries and other countries likely to bring in homophobic immigrants.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 24, 2015, 09:37:30 AM
He seems to be suggesting that because gays earn good money and don't have kids they are inclined to low taxation and low services.
Which is odd because I believe most metrics show that gay men typically earn less than their counterparts.
Odd on the good money not that they don't have disposable income.
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2015, 09:39:53 AM
Which is odd because I believe most metrics show that gay men typically earn less than their counterparts.
Odd on the good money not that they don't have disposable income.
I think it depends what you mean by counterpart.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 24, 2015, 09:37:30 AM
He seems to be suggesting that because gays earn good money and don't have kids they are inclined to low taxation and low services.
Yup. And as homosexuality becomes more accepted, the need for anti-discrimination laws (another leftist position) is reduced. And ultimately, once you get rid of the social stigma associated with homosexuality, openly gay men living a gay lifestyle in a country like Britain become, overwhelmingly, just another subset of "white men" - so they have more in common with tories who represent "white men" interests.
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2015, 09:39:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 24, 2015, 09:37:30 AM
He seems to be suggesting that because gays earn good money and don't have kids they are inclined to low taxation and low services.
Which is odd because I believe most metrics show that gay men typically earn less than their counterparts.
Odd on the good money not that they don't have disposable income.
They may earn less money in absolute terms (although that is debatable and, as we have discussed in the past, may have more to do with lower willingness to put up with a crappy job than a dad with stay-at-home wife, 2+ kids and a mortgage) but probably have more disposable income.
Funny how garbon objects to that, given his voting record, by the way. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 09:39:08 AM
While reproductive rights are largely indifferent to gays personally
Again, who are these gay people? Reproductive rights are not an issue for myself, but I don't live in a vacuum. I have both family and friends to whom they matter a great deal.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 09:39:08 AMthey do tend to have more disposable income and are less likely to have kids - so they are more likely to support lower taxes rather than higher taxes, with tax breaks/social welfare designated to help single mothers and the like
Assuming once again that one should only be voting in what is selfishly good for just a single individual and not thinking about anyone they are connected to. /could even be short sighted as said policies could actually make things better for them. Particularly as gays need a supportive, well-funded government to protect them.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 09:39:08 AM
; and on immigration, at least in Europe, they are likely to have legitimate concerns about immigration from Muslim countries and other countries likely to bring in homophobic immigrants.
Well yes, it probably helps that you have that whole freedom of movement thing in place to make it less of an issue for gay couples/families across EU countries.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 09:44:02 AM
They may earn less money in absolute terms (although that is debatable and, as we have discussed in the past, may have more to do with lower willingness to put up with a crappy job than a dad with stay-at-home wife, 2+ kids and a mortgage) but probably have more disposable income.
Oddly, Malthus and I discussed in the last few months the exact opposite with regards to singles vs. marrieds with family. Single people viewed as more of a flight risk as they don't have dependents to worry about.
Also, wouldn't the family with less disposable income receive a greater boon from lower taxation than the gay man swimming in money?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 24, 2015, 08:12:18 AM
Funny how it goes the other way as well; I used to be a much more unapologetic supporter of the liberal gay agenda until Martinus and garbon came along. Between those two, they'll set you back 50 years hating on fags. At least rufweed is cool, or it'd be a total loss.
Grabass is cool. mart needs to be exiled to Alabama without Internet.
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2015, 09:48:58 AM
Also, wouldn't the family with less disposable income receive a greater boon from lower taxation than the gay man swimming in money?
Not really, unless you have a really punishing flat tax system with no tax breaks.
Most Western countries, however, have progressive income tax systems, with tax breaks, and taxes like VAT (with a varying rate depending on the nature of the good or service) that tend to punish spurious consumption or cash hoarding - as opposed to spending it on stuff like education for children and the like.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 09:44:53 AM
Funny how garbon objects to that, given his voting record, by the way. :lol:
It has been a natural inclination for myself but that's hardly is down to the impact my sexuality has had on my life.
Reminds me of how Hispanics so far have always voted overwhelmingly Democrat in the US, despite being socially rather conservative.
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2015, 10:01:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 09:44:53 AM
Funny how garbon objects to that, given his voting record, by the way. :lol:
It has been a natural inclination for myself but that's hardly is down to the impact my sexuality has had on my life.
I think that is his point in the indirect way - i.e. that once you remove the element of sexuality, gay men tend to fit the demographics that tends to vote Tory.
I don't think it is entirely off - I have observed frequently that I sometimes agree with conservative policies, but will not vote conservative because I won't vote for someone who holds me in contempt for being gay.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 10:33:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2015, 10:01:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 09:44:53 AM
Funny how garbon objects to that, given his voting record, by the way. :lol:
It has been a natural inclination for myself but that's hardly is down to the impact my sexuality has had on my life.
I think that is his point in the indirect way - i.e. that once you remove the element of sexuality, gay men tend to fit the demographics that tends to vote Tory.
I think it fits for wealthy, mainstream, white gay guys.
Which, incidentally, are gay men at the centre of current gay rights movement.
You also have to remember that among non-white males, it is much more common to be MSM than openly gay.
Gay men vote Tory but don't notice?
Monosodium Mutamate
Quote from: The Brain on February 24, 2015, 10:50:34 AM
Gay men vote Tory but don't notice?
That seems to be how it works in Britain. Somehow the Tories get lots of votes despite seemingly being hated by everybody.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 10:44:17 AM
Which, incidentally, are gay men at the centre of current gay rights movement.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Most visible, perhaps but even then it really isn't possible to have a lefty movement these days that is so mono-cultured.
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 10:44:17 AM
You also have to remember that among non-white males, it is much more common to be MSM than openly gay.
Pro-tip while the CDC might use that term, I don't think anyone uses that colloquially. That's just a closet case. :D
Quote from: Valmy on February 24, 2015, 10:49:27 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 24, 2015, 10:44:17 AM
MSM
Main Stream Media? Methylsulfonylmethane?
Men (having) Sex (with) Men.
The socio-science speak for "on the down low".
Quote from: garbon on February 24, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
Pro-tip while the CDC might use that term, I don't think anyone uses that colloquially. That's just a closet case. :D
The gay podcast I listen to uses it regularly. :D
Quote from: Valmy on February 24, 2015, 10:53:02 AM
Quote from: The Brain on February 24, 2015, 10:50:34 AM
Gay men vote Tory but don't notice?
That seems to be how it works in Britain. Somehow the Tories get lots of votes despite seemingly being hated by everybody.
UK elections are fundamentally ugly baby competitions.
Of course, the battle for equality has mostly been won when it comes to homosexuality, so it makes sense that rich white (and lightly brown, in the case of garbon) gay men discard the interests of their erstwhile allies on that front and cash in now that they can be establishment.
Except, of course, if they have a social conscience; but I expect the frequency of that is not particularly related to sexual preference, absent social discrimination.
Quote from: Jacob on February 24, 2015, 02:07:20 PM
Of course, the battle for equality has mostly been won when it comes to homosexuality, so it makes sense that rich white (and lightly brown, in the case of garbon) gay men discard the interests of their erstwhile allies on that front and cash in now that they can be establishment.
It is so sad leftwing people are never part of the establishment.
Go get 'em Jacob. :lol:
Quote from: Valmy on February 24, 2015, 02:09:11 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 24, 2015, 02:07:20 PM
Of course, the battle for equality has mostly been won when it comes to homosexuality, so it makes sense that rich white (and lightly brown, in the case of garbon) gay men discard the interests of their erstwhile allies on that front and cash in now that they can be establishment.
It is so sad leftwing people are never part of the establishment.
It's all part of getting their slice of the pie, man. Everybody sells out. Even fags.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 24, 2015, 02:11:53 PM
It's all part of getting their slice of the pie, man. Everybody sells out. Even fags.
Even sell outs can still do something for the little people! Look at Obama, I am sure he has done something to help secret Muslims after his rise to power.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 24, 2015, 02:09:29 PM
Go get 'em Jacob. :lol:
:yes: Reliability is an under-rated virtue.
Quote from: Valmy on February 24, 2015, 02:09:11 PMIt is so sad leftwing people are never part of the establishment.
I think the Tories are more establishment than Labour and Liberal Democrats, and certainly much more so than the various groups that did most of the agitating for gay rights and acceptance these last few decades.
Quote from: Jacob on February 24, 2015, 02:36:48 PM
I think the Tories are more establishment than Labour and Liberal Democrats, and certainly much more so than the various groups that did most of the agitating for gay rights and acceptance these last few decades.
Well yeah they are in office. And again...I don't know. Gay Rights has long had support from many in the establishment at least personally. For my part it was preached in schools and in the media long before I saw widespread public acceptance. Presuming we are talking about these past few decades. Heck it just got implemented top down in my state.
I don't think the establishment is quite as anti-social justice as you seem to think.
Quote from: Valmy on February 24, 2015, 02:45:19 PMWell yeah they are in office. And again...I don't know. Gay Rights has long had support from many in the establishment at least personally. For my part it was preached in schools and in the media long before I saw widespread public acceptance. Presuming we are talking about these past few decades. Heck it just got implemented top down in my state.
I don't think the establishment is quite as anti-social justice as you seem to think.
I'm not following you, I'm afraid.
Quote from: Jacob on February 24, 2015, 02:58:59 PM
I'm not following you, I'm afraid.
You said 'joining the establishment' as synonymous with abandoning your allies and joining the conservative party, which I disagree that those things are synonymous. The conservatives are certainly not the establishment in BC so...color me confused.
Is that clear?
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 24, 2015, 08:27:31 AM
I hate him <_<
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.therightplanet.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F11%2FLiberalsMotivator.jpg&hash=7b0ee6bc75cda51224d2460dc2d5f242f398b2fc)
Is my mind really supposed to be blown by the biting commentary that Liberals do not like Conservatives Siege?
Quote
Speaking to Attitude magazine, the gay businessman said that gay men have historically been "obliged" to "stand on the left and throw rocks at the right."
:unsure:
Surely gays were obliged to stand on the left because the right were throwing rocks at them?
My dislike of Massow's nothing to do with his politics and everything to do with him being an insufferable prick.