http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/10/newsquest-newspapers-charge-students-write-stories_n_6651264.html
QuoteNewsquest Newspapers Are Actually Charging Students £120 To Write Stories For Them
A newspaper group is giving hopeful young journalists the "exciting" experience of working on its publications - but instead of paying them, is charging the students £120 if they want their articles published.
Newsquest heralded the launch of its "young reporter scheme," which actually makes students pay not only for the pleasure of writing stories for the company, but also for a reference from the editor.
Students who sign up to the programme will be expected to write one article per month over eight months, which will then be published on the site.
Diana Jarvis, who runs the scheme for the South London branch, wrote to colleges with journalism courses to alert them to the "unique chance", according to the National Union of Journalists.
"At the end of the scheme all students who complete all eight articles, receive a letter of recognition from the editor, which they can use as a reference with their CVs and their names go into our Award Ceremony brochure, which is distributed around London."
The General Secretary Of The National Union of Journalists, Michelle Stanistreet, attacked the by-line charge: "While Newsquest is sacking professional staff on its titles, it is charging journalist students for writing articles for them. The unpaid intern has become the scourge of the media profession - now Newsquest is asking for journalist students to actually pay for a by-line. The company's cynicism beggars belief, and preys on young people desperate to get a break in a competitive industry."
Stanistreet also claimed the programme lacked "integrity."
"Where is the commitment to quality journalism? They should be providing journalist students with a meaningful work experience and if their articles are good enough to be published, they are good enough to be paid for."
Speaking to HuffPost UK, Newsquest's Jarvis claimed the fee was "purely an administration cost".
"We have students from 10 to 13 years of age writing on this programme and they have no journalism experience, as such. We have to do a lot of work to enable their stuff to go up [on the site] without any libel risks. It is not a money-making exercise."
But Stanistreet said universities were angry at the plan: "College lecturers tell me they are outraged and they are quite right to be. We also know that Newsquest is using students to do shifts at its subbing hub in Newport, after sacking sub-editors on its newspapers across the land."
Daily Mail uses 8 year olds to write stories.
Guardian? Fetuses.
That's happened here, too. In particular I remember a (smallish) radio station that charged 100€ for working with them, Radio Kanal Barcelona.
The union doesn't understand supply and demand? What a shocker.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 12, 2015, 10:38:47 AM
Daily Mail uses 8 year olds to write stories.
Guardian? Fetuses.
The Sun? Sperm.
Quote from: The Brain on February 12, 2015, 10:42:37 AM
The union doesn't understand supply and demand? What a shocker.
I don't think it's even an issue of supply and demand. This seems to be marketed as a training course - the "interns" are referred to as students. To me, this is not in the same bucket as unpaid internships, which I do think are a problem.
Quote from: celedhring on February 12, 2015, 10:50:39 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 12, 2015, 10:38:47 AM
Daily Mail uses 8 year olds to write stories.
Guardian? Fetuses.
The Sun? Sperm.
The Express can't even get it up.
Quote from: celedhring on February 12, 2015, 10:50:39 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 12, 2015, 10:38:47 AM
Daily Mail uses 8 year olds to write stories.
Guardian? Fetuses.
The Sun? Sperm.
Playboy goes one step back in the process for its pictures.
Quote from: Warspite on February 12, 2015, 10:51:33 AM
This seems to be marketed as a training course - the "interns" are referred to as students.
lol, we've had this discussion before.
QuoteTo me, this is not in the same bucket as unpaid internships, which I do think are a problem.
In what way are they a problem?
ironic that this is being reported by HuffPo, given that their business model is unpaid contributions.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 12, 2015, 12:38:54 PM
ironic that this is being reported by HuffPo, given that their business model is unpaid contributions.
Yeah and now somebody is trying to undercut them by paying negative money. I understand the outrage.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
In what way are they a problem?
There is a basic social bargain that honest work deserves honest pay. Sure, we make some exceptions for things like charities. But there is a real danger that many careers become closed off to the poor or less-rich if they begin to require months and months of unpaid work while someone else benefits from the real revenue that is generated.
Now you can of course contend that this is just a natural outcome of the labour supply in some fields far outstripping supply, and so this is just a rational choice by employers. But societies are not just constructed by economic rationality, and there are compelling social reasons to keep private-sector enterprise actually paying for labour.
I think it is a natural outcome of trustifarians treating jobs as a hobby.
Anything that reduces social mobility is bad so it is bad.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2015, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Warspite on February 12, 2015, 10:51:33 AM
This seems to be marketed as a training course - the "interns" are referred to as students.
lol, we've had this discussion before.
QuoteTo me, this is not in the same bucket as unpaid internships, which I do think are a problem.
In what way are they a problem?
By reducing social mobility in certain jobs.
Who cares about social mobility in certain jobs? If people want a specific job more than they want social mobility (up or down btw?) then what's the problem? If you want to make something of yourself you don't go into fucking journalism.
Quote from: The Brain on February 12, 2015, 04:59:20 PM
Who cares about social mobility in certain jobs? If people want a specific job more than they want social mobility (up or down btw?) then what's the problem? If you want to make something of yourself you don't go into fucking journalism.
But the unpaid internships are a problem in other areas as well, like law practice.
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:08:43 PM
But the unpaid internships are a problem in other areas as well, like law practice.
That's the whole point of unpaid internships, though: to earn experience in a sector one wishes to enter as a career--and, in some cases, to determine it's not for them, either.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2015, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:08:43 PM
But the unpaid internships are a problem in other areas as well, like law practice.
That's the whole point of unpaid internships, though: to earn experience in a sector one wishes to enter as a career--and, in some cases, to determine it's not for them, either.
Yes but making it avaialble without pay means only people from affluent enough families can afford it.
I pride myself on the fact that my firm in Warsaw pays interns a modest (but living salary) and also rents flats for those who come from outside of Warsaw area. We want talent, not trust fund babies.
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:08:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 12, 2015, 04:59:20 PM
Who cares about social mobility in certain jobs? If people want a specific job more than they want social mobility (up or down btw?) then what's the problem? If you want to make something of yourself you don't go into fucking journalism.
But the unpaid internships are a problem in other areas as well, like law practice.
Very rare in the UK. Companies that actually want to make money and recruit the best people pay their interns so they're not drawing from a shallow, privileged gene pool.
Companies that don't are mainly using unpaid interns as free labour, rather than a potential hiring tool/work experience gig. That tends not to be most law firms for example.
QuoteYes but making it avaialble without pay means only people from affluent enough families can afford it.
Especially if that family's not from London. Internships can be an opportunity for poor kids if their parents happen to live in London. If they don't they're fucked.
Again firms that want to recruit from their interns pay.
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:14:34 PM
Yes but making it avaialble without pay means only people from affluent enough families can afford it.
But see, you are paying for an internship--it's called tuition.
QuoteI pride myself on the fact that my firm in Warsaw pays interns a modest (but living salary) and also rents flats for those who come from outside of Warsaw area. We want talent, not trust fund babies.
Gays, too.
My firm is a British one so I guess its normal but many Polish or American firms in Warsaw do not pay interns/trainees.
The fact that an intern to survive needs to be paid 1/100 of a partner's pay makes it more stupid not to pay them really.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 12, 2015, 05:20:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:14:34 PM
Yes but making it avaialble without pay means only people from affluent enough families can afford it.
But see, you are paying for an internship--it's called tuition.
QuoteI pride myself on the fact that my firm in Warsaw pays interns a modest (but living salary) and also rents flats for those who come from outside of Warsaw area. We want talent, not trust fund babies.
Gays, too.
We believe that you get better results if you also hire people who are not rich white heterosexual males, imagine that.
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:21:16 PM
We believe that you get better results if you also hire people who are not rich white heterosexual males, imagine that.
We call those "unions" here. And try to destroy them.
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:08:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 12, 2015, 04:59:20 PM
Who cares about social mobility in certain jobs? If people want a specific job more than they want social mobility (up or down btw?) then what's the problem? If you want to make something of yourself you don't go into fucking journalism.
But the unpaid internships are a problem in other areas as well, like law practice.
I fail to see the problem with supply and demand in the labor market. If you want people to pay you then develop marketable skills. If you want to do stuff that people won't pay you to do then yes you need money from other sources. What a shocker.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 12, 2015, 12:51:15 PM
I think it is a natural outcome of trustifarians treating jobs as a hobby.
Are there that many Trust Fund kids working for free that it can this large of an impact? I figured most trust fund kids would prefer to just not work at all.
Quote from: The Brain on February 12, 2015, 05:33:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 12, 2015, 05:08:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 12, 2015, 04:59:20 PM
Who cares about social mobility in certain jobs? If people want a specific job more than they want social mobility (up or down btw?) then what's the problem? If you want to make something of yourself you don't go into fucking journalism.
But the unpaid internships are a problem in other areas as well, like law practice.
I fail to see the problem with supply and demand in the labor market. If you want people to pay you then develop marketable skills. If you want to do stuff that people won't pay you to do then yes you need money from other sources. What a shocker.
I believe people should act according to rules that, if followed by everybody, would contribute to the betterment of the society, especially if that does not involve a huge personal sacrifice or cost on their part. That is the most primary moral duty one has in life.
On that basis, employers that can afford it, should pay their interns.
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2015, 09:41:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 12, 2015, 12:51:15 PM
I think it is a natural outcome of trustifarians treating jobs as a hobby.
Are there that many Trust Fund kids working for free that it can this large of an impact? I figured most trust fund kids would prefer to just not work at all.
It doesn't matter. Our societies (again, excepting America which doesn't really have any civilized concept of education and employment rights) are built around the principle (and usually have built-in supports) that parents support their children through education, but once education finishes, children should be able to live on their own. By making internships unpaid, you are effectively preventing educated young people who come from poorer families and/or from the country, from competing, because their families can no longer support them. As in practice, having an internship experience then serves as a gateway to a well paid job, you are effectively segregating people according to social classes, while maintaining the illusion of a meritocracy.
Of course you could argue that many people have to work already while getting college education - but the difference here is that education allows you to get a paid job in your free time. Internship is normally already a full time job.
Quote from: celedhring on February 12, 2015, 10:39:04 AM
That's happened here, too. In particular I remember a (smallish) radio station that charged 100€ for working with them, Radio Kanal Barcelona.
There was also an advertising agency that did it, directed by one of the gurus of that sector. If you read "Moderna de pueblo" she did a comic strip denouncing it.
Seems a logical outgrowth of the already screwed up system of unpaid internships and let's face it, the newspaper industry is a mess these days.
That it is a logical growth of a trend does not of course make that trend in any way ok .
I totally agree with what Martinus said above
It seems to me that these desirable jobs will always go to the privileged, their privilege can be based on family wealth (as today) or their level of intellect (in a meritocratic system). In order to really promote social mobility we should hand out the jobs by holding lotteries.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 13, 2015, 08:38:16 AM
It seems to me that these desirable jobs will always go to the privileged, their privilege can be based on family wealth (as today) or their level of intellect (in a meritocratic system). In order to really promote social mobility we should hand out the jobs by holding lotteries.
There's a difference between the rich having a leg-up over a fence or a ladder over a 15-foot high wall.
Quote from: Martinus on February 13, 2015, 01:18:51 AM
It doesn't matter. Our societies (again, excepting America which doesn't really have any civilized concept of education and employment rights) are built around the principle (and usually have built-in supports) that parents support their children through education, but once education finishes, children should be able to live on their own. By making internships unpaid, you are effectively preventing educated young people who come from poorer families and/or from the country, from competing, because their families can no longer support them. As in practice, having an internship experience then serves as a gateway to a well paid job, you are effectively segregating people according to social classes, while maintaining the illusion of a meritocracy.
Of course you could argue that many people have to work already while getting college education - but the difference here is that education allows you to get a paid job in your free time. Internship is normally already a full time job.
Indeed. I was saying that this is not really the fault of irresponsible rich kids who love working for free. I am sure even the trustfund kids would prefer the entry level jobs in their chosen career were well paying. They are just doing what the newspaper profession demands they do, and they have the means to do so. They might not even be rich either, they might just be willing to shoulder large amounts of debt. That is hardly a better situation.
I don't get the point about American education and employment. Pretty sure our society is based around the exact same idea and pretty sure the same forces that are creating this situation in England are creating similar social disruption here.
Marti loves his random ill informed digs at the US.
Quote from: garbon on February 13, 2015, 08:48:13 AM
Marti loves his random ill informed digs at the US.
Honestly, I had no idea that a student registering for an upper-level internship elective in college for a semester is "effectively preventing educated young people who come from poorer families and/or from the country, from competing, because their families can no longer support them."
I'm a better American for knowing that now, thanks to some lawyer in an Eastern European shithole.
Internships aren't in college. If you do any work in industry in uni you normally get paid for it. These are people's first (few years of) full-time jobs.
Back when I left uni you technically weren't allowed to, but could claim benefits while you were doing an internship. I've a couple of friends who got started in their industry that way, now they'd have no chance.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 13, 2015, 08:38:16 AM
It seems to me that these desirable jobs will always go to the privileged, their privilege can be based on family wealth (as today) or their level of intellect (in a meritocratic system). In order to really promote social mobility we should hand out the jobs by holding lotteries.
I think meritocratic privilege is generally a whole lot more palatable than inherited privilege.
It's interesting the different ways the word benefits is used in our countries.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 13, 2015, 11:42:00 AM
Internships aren't in college.
Yes, they are. Maybe not in your foreign country, but that doesn't negate the fact that they do, in fact, exist in college. Or, as you would say, "at university".
Marti, if an American intern isn't being paid, they're either 1) not doing work, or 2) working for someone who's breaking the law.
I'm actually kind of surprised- I assumed the euros would have, at the very least, something akin to our recent ruling that if a student's doing work for the company's benefit more for their own, they can't be denied wage compensation.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 13, 2015, 11:51:13 AM
Marti, if an American intern isn't being paid, they're either 1) not doing work, or 2) working for someone who's breaking the law.
Or 3) a student.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on February 13, 2015, 11:51:13 AM
I'm actually kind of surprised- I assumed the euros would have, at the very least, something akin to our recent ruling that if a student's doing work for the company's benefit more for their own, they can't be denied wage compensation.
I think the courts have ruled that they now need to be paid minimum wage with a few exceptions. Not sure if it's happening yet.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 13, 2015, 11:42:00 AM
Internships aren't in college. If you do any work in industry in uni you normally get paid for it. These are people's first (few years of) full-time jobs.
Back when I left uni you technically weren't allowed to, but could claim benefits while you were doing an internship. I've a couple of friends who got started in their industry that way, now they'd have no chance.
Not only do internships happen in college here, many degree programs actually require some form of internship. In fact, some curriculum programs are required to have an internship element- US teachers and paralegals have to complete practicum, for example. The college my girlfriend attended required
every student to complete an internship program in order to graduate.
I'm not required to do one, but it's also common to take one when not required during college here, since it's one of the few ways around the "need field experience to get a job in the field" catch-22 (I'm planning on doing this next school year).
Quote from: Jacob on February 13, 2015, 11:43:25 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 13, 2015, 08:38:16 AM
It seems to me that these desirable jobs will always go to the privileged, their privilege can be based on family wealth (as today) or their level of intellect (in a meritocratic system). In order to really promote social mobility we should hand out the jobs by holding lotteries.
I think meritocratic privilege is generally a whole lot more palatable than inherited privilege.
I'm inclined to agree, but would question how much our intellect, good looks, work ethic etc are less of an inheritance than any wealth we happen to receive.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 13, 2015, 12:41:24 PMI'm inclined to agree, but would question how much our intellect, good looks, work ethic etc are less of an inheritance than any wealth we happen to receive.
For sure. There's certainly an argument that intellectual capacity, good looks, work ethic etc are related to your parents and how you were brought up, and is thus a form of inheritance.
Nonetheless, there's still the difference in that if some rich fellow has an important and interesting job and he's actually really good at it and works hard, that's a whole lot more palatable than some guy who's there because of connections and social status and is a complete idiot at the job.
As well, there's the fact that those other qualities are likely easy to acquire than ensuring you're born into a wealthy family.
Quote from: Jacob on February 13, 2015, 01:10:40 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 13, 2015, 12:41:24 PMI'm inclined to agree, but would question how much our intellect, good looks, work ethic etc are less of an inheritance than any wealth we happen to receive.
For sure. There's certainly an argument that intellectual capacity, good looks, work ethic etc are related to your parents and how you were brought up, and is thus a form of inheritance.
Nonetheless, there's still the difference in that if some rich fellow has an important and interesting job and he's actually really good at it and works hard, that's a whole lot more palatable than some guy who's there because of connections and social status and is a complete idiot at the job.
As well, there's the fact that those other qualities are likely easy to acquire than ensuring you're born into a wealthy family.
But being able to work as an unpaid intern is not the function of one's inherent qualities (whether such are influenced by one's upbringing or not) but one's wealth solely.
Not sure if you are arguing for or against this, by the way.
Quote from: Martinus on February 13, 2015, 02:04:44 PM
But being able to work as an unpaid intern is not the function of one's inherent qualities (whether such are influenced by one's upbringing or not) but one's wealth solely.
Not sure if you are arguing for or against this, by the way.
I was going off on the tangent RH started, so I was neither arguing for or against.
That said, I think interns should be paid; and in fact I pay my interns.
Ok. I think there are two more points at least to consider in your analysis.
1. To what extent personal bias is disguised as personal merit. What I mean by that - we talk a lot about all these inherent traits that come from proper upbringing etc. - but how many of these are not really relevant, except as a tool of discrimination? It is scientifically proven that we tend to see people who are like us as virtuous. So a white protestant heterosexual male will see another white protestant heterosexual male as more virtuous than, say, a black muslim woman - simply because they share more cultural traits that, objectively, are not relevant.
2. We address "inherited meritocratic privilege" through trying to provide equal opportunity to young people - we don't have to choose people for jobs at random, as RH suggests.
Edit: Sorry if the above sounds more like a sketch of an argument than an actual argument - very tired and having a headache. :P
There is nothing preventing gays, women, blacks, whomever, from taking advantage of any perceived bias, scooping up all the meritorious people overlooked by the straight white hegemons, and making a mint of money.
Quote from: Jacob on February 13, 2015, 02:08:42 PM
That said, I think interns should be paid; and in fact I pay my interns.
I know you guys like to goof on me for being teh olds, but when exactly did the term "internships" no longer mean "students working for semester credit" and become something else?
Just for shits and giggles, I looked up a couple of course catalogs for some universities this morning, and "internships" were listed as upper level electives for degree credit, just like they used to be when I was going to school; so I know I'm not totally fucking off base here.
Paid interns = employees.
Seedy, coming to think of it, I think it changed because of the crisis, to be honest. When I started work, I was an intern while still in college. That was back in 1999 and I got a full time job within 3 months (while still at college).
Now, we stopped hiring people during 2008-2010. And then when we started hiring again, people who have already graduated (and were unemployed for 2-3 years) started to join as interns. I wonder if this is why the perception changed. What do you think, guys?
By the way, even in 1999 I was still paid as an intern (although it was about 1/30 of what I earn now).
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2015, 02:20:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 13, 2015, 02:08:42 PM
That said, I think interns should be paid; and in fact I pay my interns.
I know you guys like to goof on me for being teh olds, but when exactly did the term "internships" no longer mean "students working for semester credit" and become something else?
Just for shits and giggles, I looked up a couple of course catalogs for some universities this morning, and "internships" were listed as upper level electives for degree credit, just like they used to be when I was going to school; so I know I'm not totally fucking off base here.
Paid interns = employees.
I think students working for semester credit should get paid as well. They should get semester credit and money, IMO.
But yeah, the line between junior employee (especially if a new grad) and intern are getting somewhat blurred these days.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2015, 02:20:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 13, 2015, 02:08:42 PM
That said, I think interns should be paid; and in fact I pay my interns.
I know you guys like to goof on me for being teh olds, but when exactly did the term "internships" no longer mean "students working for semester credit" and become something else?
In my program that's called "practicum" and it is distinct from an internship which may be paid. Internships are between the student and the employer, a practicum also has an academic adviser involved.
Quote from: Jacob on February 13, 2015, 02:48:19 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2015, 02:20:56 PM
Quote from: Jacob on February 13, 2015, 02:08:42 PM
That said, I think interns should be paid; and in fact I pay my interns.
I know you guys like to goof on me for being teh olds, but when exactly did the term "internships" no longer mean "students working for semester credit" and become something else?
Just for shits and giggles, I looked up a couple of course catalogs for some universities this morning, and "internships" were listed as upper level electives for degree credit, just like they used to be when I was going to school; so I know I'm not totally fucking off base here.
Paid interns = employees.
I think students working for semester credit should get paid as well. They should get semester credit and money, IMO.
But yeah, the line between junior employee (especially if a new grad) and intern are getting somewhat blurred these days.
I think they should be happy i'm signing their damn paper telling thier shitty professor they were a good little boy or girl.
Now fetch my coffee, intern!
Quote from: Maximus on February 13, 2015, 02:51:11 PM
In my program that's called "practicum" and it is distinct from an internship which may be paid. Internships are between the student and the employer, a practicum also has an academic adviser involved.
That's just being a snobby program. :P
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2015, 07:19:02 PM
Quote from: Maximus on February 13, 2015, 02:51:11 PM
In my program that's called "practicum" and it is distinct from an internship which may be paid. Internships are between the student and the employer, a practicum also has an academic adviser involved.
That's just being a snobby program. :P
That's the Latin; I had to sign a document today which contained a fair bit of latin, stating I had not received more the 200,000 Euro in funding recently. :hmm:
Actually knowing Latin doesn't even help since the phrases that are used don't always make sense on their own. Like Exempli grata and Id est.
Quote from: mongers on February 13, 2015, 07:28:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2015, 07:19:02 PM
Quote from: Maximus on February 13, 2015, 02:51:11 PM
In my program that's called "practicum" and it is distinct from an internship which may be paid. Internships are between the student and the employer, a practicum also has an academic adviser involved.
That's just being a snobby program. :P
That's the Latin; I had to sign a document today which contained a fair bit of latin, stating I had not received more the 200,000 Euro in funding recently. :hmm:
Big deal. Used to take a Colloquium every so often in my program. Still a fucking seminar, Latin or not. :P