Quote
http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/15/womens-college-cancels-vagina-monologues
Women's College Cancels 'Vagina Monologues' Because It Excludes Women Without Vaginas
Good riddance! Yet I just can't get on board with the logic of Mount Holyoke's dismissal...
Elizabeth Nolan Brown|Jan. 15, 2015 4:00 pm
Since the 1990s, students from Mount Holyoke College, an all-women's school in Massachusetts, have staged an annual production of The Vagina Monologues. Not this year. The college is retiring the ritual over concerns that the play—penned by Eve Ensler in 1996 as a way to "celebrate the vagina" and women's sexuality—is not inclusive enough.
In a school-wide email from Mount Holyoke's student-theater board, relayed by Campus Reform, student Erin Murphy explained that "at its core, the show offers an extremely narrow perspective on what it means to be a woman ... Gender is a wide and varied experience, one that cannot simply be reduced to biological or anatomical distinctions, and many of us who have participated in the show have grown increasingly uncomfortable presenting material that is inherently reductionist and exclusive."
Good riddance!, I say; though I admire how women's groups have used The Vagina Monologues to raise funding for anti-violence programs, the play itself has always been a little too schmaltzy for my liking, its tone a little too outdated. That it's become (and remained) a millennial student staple has always surprised me. I wouldn't be sad to see more colleges ditching the show.
But I just can't get on board with the logic of Mount Holyoke's dismissal, similar strains of which have been seen elsewhere recently. Last January, for instance, a fundraiser for a Texas abortion-advocacy group came under fire because of its title, "A Night of a Thousand Vaginas," which some argued was hurtful to trans individuals.
In both cases here, the argument is premised on the idea that a) not all women have vaginas, and b) some men do have vaginas, because some trans individuals identify and live as a different gender than they were born without getting genital reconstructive surgery. Ergo, a trans women is a woman, full stop, but she may have a penis. A trans man is a man, full stop, but he may have a vagina. Fine. I get that. I'm cool with that. And, regardless, it doesn't matter if I'm cool with it, because how other people define their genders/bodies/sexualities is none of my concern. If you are a woman without a vagina, neat; there is totally room for all of our experiences in this great big, crazy world.
Yet I am a woman with a vagina, and this becomes an area of my concern when people start saying that I shouldn't reference or acknowlege that—that it's in fact bad and intolerant so 20th century to even speak about it. The fact that some trans women don't have vaginas doesn't negate the fact that the vast majority of women do. And now, in the name of feminism, "female-validating talk about vaginas is now forbidden," as one anonymous writer on a Mount Holyoke messageboard put it. "That's so misogynistic under the guise of 'progress.'"
But "we can't present a show that is blatantly transphobic," countered another student, displaying the kind of rhetoric that is troubling in all this. There's certainly nothing wrong with wanting to stage a women's show that includes trans perspectives (on genitals or whatever else), but that doesn't make a show without those perspectives transphobic. It just makes it a show without those perspectives, in this case one written almost 20 years ago. And while it might be hard for today's students to imagine, in those days discouraging people from talking openly about female sexuality or suggesting that gender was anything but a social construct is what would earn you the approbation of feminists.
Oh brother.
Quotesome men do have vaginas
Commonly Canadians and Euros.
:lol:
:XD:
Maybe this ties back to some of the discussion about Charlie Hebdo, but Colleges and Universities today do seem to have the idea that not offending someone is more important than any freedom of expression.
This reminds me of when RuPaul was labeled transphobic. Biting the hands of would-be allies.
Oh genderless family member who self identifies as female.
Quote from: garbon on January 16, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
This reminds me of when RuPaul was labeled transphobic. Biting the hands of would-be allies.
Yep, got a kick out of that.
Quote from: PRC on January 16, 2015, 11:56:46 AM
Maybe this ties back to some of the discussion about Charlie Hebdo, but Colleges and Universities today do seem to have the idea that not offending someone is more important than any freedom of expression.
Yeah I read an interesting article about it recently (was it posted here on Languish? I don't recall). It seems that colleges and universities have gone from the most free-thinking to the most closed minded in the course of a generation. It is no longer about a market place of ideas but about banning the ideas you disagree with.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fpictures%2FTransnigger_1ef8dd_4917132.png&hash=5af0870fc71fbd2833d547b94c83c8c3540454f0)
Vag Monologues also exclude Shetland ponies, Barney, men and people with stage fright.
I think this thread is a perfect example where the society gets when it follows the attitudes like the ones expressed in the childhood/bullying thread. It leads to a society of pussies that ban everything for the fear of causing distress.
Quote from: Martinus on January 16, 2015, 01:38:13 PM
I think this thread is a perfect example where the society gets when it follows the attitudes like the ones expressed in the childhood/bullying thread. It leads to a society of pussies that ban everything for the fear of causing distress.
Well you do have a tendency to espouse stupid thoughts.
Quote from: Legbiter on January 16, 2015, 01:34:28 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fpictures%2FTransnigger_1ef8dd_4917132.png&hash=5af0870fc71fbd2833d547b94c83c8c3540454f0)
If she looks like Lana Del Rey, I'll put up with her stupidity. :sleep:
Weird that her descriptions are about what she does not have and not what she is. And naturally replace 'she' with whatever pronoun I am supposed to use with genderless people. I forget.
37. Not Chinese.
You know the stress you feel when, in a professional environment, you have to discuss someone you have never seen and who has a weird foreign name and you don't know if it's a man or a woman? Then finally you get to meet the person and instead of relief you realize that you STILL don't know if it's a man or a woman. Stress level... rising! *shudders*
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2015, 02:04:58 PM
You know the stress you feel when, in a professional environment, you have to discuss someone you have never seen and who has a weird foreign name and you don't know if it's a man or a woman? Then finally you get to meet the person and instead of relief you realize that you STILL don't know if it's a man or a woman. Stress level... rising! *shudders*
Here's your solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLVDRFX3uE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLVDRFX3uE)
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 16, 2015, 02:06:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on January 16, 2015, 02:04:58 PM
You know the stress you feel when, in a professional environment, you have to discuss someone you have never seen and who has a weird foreign name and you don't know if it's a man or a woman? Then finally you get to meet the person and instead of relief you realize that you STILL don't know if it's a man or a woman. Stress level... rising! *shudders*
Here's your solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLVDRFX3uE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLVDRFX3uE)
Of course. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Martinus on January 16, 2015, 01:38:13 PM
I think this thread is a perfect example where the society gets when it follows the attitudes like the ones expressed in the childhood/bullying thread. It leads to a society of pussies that ban everything for the fear of causing distress.
Indeed. If only people like Marty were allowed to beat up people because they have a speech impediment, or are a different race, or some other sexual preference, silliness would never happen.
Lord knows that before intolerance for bullying came along, people never did silly things.
:lol:
:D
Quote from: garbon on January 16, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
This reminds me of when RuPaul was labeled transphobic. Biting the hands of would-be allies.
He is transphobic. :mellow:
Should have been canceled because it's a shitty play. Why does shitty art remain so popular? My wife has a theory: shitty people like shitty art.
Quote from: Scipio on January 17, 2015, 08:52:49 AM
Should have been canceled because it's a shitty play. Why does shitty art remain so popular? My wife has a theory: shitty people like shitty art.
I like some great art thank you very much. :mad:
Shitty people can, indeed, like great art. They just usually don't.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2015, 07:25:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on January 16, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
This reminds me of when RuPaul was labeled transphobic. Biting the hands of would-be allies.
He is transphobic. :mellow:
Explain. :huh:
I was told it would transphobic to cut transfats out of my diet. Now I'm trancorupulant :(
Quote from: Martinus on January 17, 2015, 03:31:59 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 17, 2015, 07:25:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on January 16, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
This reminds me of when RuPaul was labeled transphobic. Biting the hands of would-be allies.
He is transphobic. :mellow:
Explain. :huh:
I don't think there can be a non-ridiculous argument made that he is.
Because, as a man who dresses up like a woman he's making a mockery of them. Maybe, I'm just spitballing here.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 19, 2015, 01:25:08 AM
Because, as a man who dresses up like a woman he's making a mockery of them. Maybe, I'm just spitballing here.
He's a cross dresser, not a trans-woman, and he insists on using terminology "tranny" that he knows is offensive to them.
Quote from: garbon on January 16, 2015, 12:11:43 PM
This reminds me of when RuPaul was labeled transphobic. Biting the hands of would-be allies.
Yep :(
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 19, 2015, 02:32:49 AM
He's a cross dresser, not a trans-woman, and he insists on using terminology "tranny" that he knows is offensive to them.
According to the descriptions given in To Wong Foo, he's a drag queen. :smarty:
Tim is an example of what is wrong with the world - misinformed outsiders getting offended on behalf of a member of a group they are ignorant of.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 19, 2015, 03:38:14 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 19, 2015, 02:32:49 AM
He's a cross dresser, not a trans-woman, and he insists on using terminology "tranny" that he knows is offensive to them.
According to the descriptions given in To Wong Foo, he's a drag queen. :smarty:
That just means he's a crossdresser who's won some contests.
Quote from: Martinus on January 19, 2015, 04:06:19 AM
Tim is an example of what is wrong with the world - misinformed outsiders getting offended on behalf of a member of a group they are ignorant of.
My best friend turned out to be a transwoman and started hormone therapy 18 months ago. That's her exact sentiment with regards to RuPaul.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 19, 2015, 04:29:17 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 19, 2015, 03:38:14 AM
According to the descriptions given in To Wong Foo, he's a drag queen. :smarty:
That just means he's a crossdresser who's won some contests.
They described a cross-dresser as a straight man who got off on wearing women's clothing and a drag queen as a gay man who wore women's clothing to attract other men.
Not all trans people are offended by the word "tranny". Many "own" it and use it themselves. It is similar to "queer" in that regard.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 19, 2015, 04:39:42 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 19, 2015, 04:29:17 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 19, 2015, 03:38:14 AM
According to the descriptions given in To Wong Foo, he's a drag queen. :smarty:
That just means he's a crossdresser who's won some contests.
They described a cross-dresser as a straight man who got off on wearing women's clothing and a drag queen as a gay man who wore women's clothing to attract other men.
Oh dear.
A cross-dresser (or a trans-vestite) is a person who wears clothes normally associated with the opposite gender role (although, admittedly, it is more often used for men, as I suppose women dressing in a man-like fashion is more acceptable socially) to achieve sexual gratification. I don't think the person's sexual orientation has any role to play, like with most fetishes.
A drag queen is a male performer / entertainer who impersonates women (with varying degrees of accuracy, some of them intentional and some uninintentional). Again, his sexuality does not play a great role but most (not all) drag queens seem to be gay. A drag king is the opposite, i.e. a female performer impersonating a man.
Some drag queens are actually transsexual but I believe it is a minority. Likewise, some drag queens may be cross-dressers. There is no indication that Ru Paul is.
I don't think any gay men actually wear women's clothing to attract other men, but if they do, that certainly does not make them drag queens.
Or even slightly more complicated:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.docstoccdn.com%2Fthumb%2Forig%2F108909209.png&hash=cc3a07077329bdbfde6b43217eb5e6d5ace04de5)
Tim, if you intend to accuse someone of transphobia, it would be useful if you yourself weren't being homophobic/transphobic about it.
Sorry, Marty, I think Patrick Swayze has more credibility in this. :P
Quote from: PRC on January 16, 2015, 11:56:46 AM
Maybe this ties back to some of the discussion about Charlie Hebdo, but Colleges and Universities today do seem to have the idea that not offending someone is more important than any freedom of expression.
There are some differences, though. Charlie Hebdo knew that they were publishing cartoons that were offensive to many Muslims--in fact, to a certain extent, that was the intent. The Vagina Monologues, though, I'm pretty sure, weren't intended to be offensive to women. This is just about people looking for something to get offended over.
How can their existence challenge the gender binary? Doesn't it reinforce it, by demonstrating that just wishing and imagining that you were some other gender doesn't solve your problems. And third and fourth genders? Good god.