http://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-muslims-not-columbus-discovered-americas-162759161.html
QuoteErdogan says Muslims, not Columbus, discovered Americas
Istanbul (AFP) - Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Saturday that the Americas were discovered by Muslims in the 12th century, nearly three centuries before Christopher Columbus set foot there.
"Contacts between Latin America and Islam date back to the 12th century. Muslims discovered America in 1178, not Christopher Columbus," the conservative president said in a televised speech during an Istanbul summit of Muslim leaders from Latin America.
"Muslim sailors arrived in America from 1178. Columbus mentioned the existence of a mosque on a hill on the Cuban coast," Erdogan said.
Erdogan said that Ankara was even prepared to build a mosque at the site mentioned by the Genoese explorer.
"I would like to talk about it to my Cuban brothers. A mosque would go perfectly on the hill today," the Turkish leader said.
History books say that Columbus set foot on the American continent in 1492 as he was seeking a new maritime route to India.
A tiny minority of Muslim scholars have recently suggested a prior Muslim presence in the Americas, although no pre-Columbian ruin of an Islamic structure has ever been found.
In a controversial article published in 1996, historian Youssef Mroueh refers to a diary entry from Columbus that mentions a mosque in Cuba. But the passage is widely understood to be a metaphorical reference to the shape of the landscape.
Ah, so that's why America sucks.
Unlike the claims that the Chinese did it, or the Welsh did it or the Musselmans did it the Icelanders did do it and we have y'know archeology.
In any case none of these putative and (one) real discovery really matter since they had no effect. This says more about Erdogan than about reality.
This reminds me of the old Soviet era joke - who is right, the imperalists who claim that the lightbulb was first invented by Thomas Alva Edison or the socialists who claim that the first lightbulb was invented by Aleksandr Nikolaevich Liodygin (the Russian "genius" who was credited with inventing most of the modern era inventions).
The answer was that they are both right - Liodygin did invent the first lightbulb, but Edison invented the first lightbulb that gave light.
Quote from: Viking on November 16, 2014, 05:40:59 AM
Unlike the claims that the Chinese did it, or the Welsh did it or the Musselmans did it the Icelanders did do it and we have y'know archeology.
In any case none of these putative and (one) real discovery really matter since they had no effect. This says more about Erdogan than about reality.
Fortunately they didn't stay.
Great news especially as I found out this week that Philae's a Muslim too.
Quote from: Martinus on November 16, 2014, 07:00:54 AM
This reminds me of the old Soviet era joke - who is right, the imperalists who claim that the lightbulb was first invented by Thomas Alva Edison or the socialists who claim that the first lightbulb was invented by Aleksandr Nikolaevich Liodygin (the Russian "genius" who was credited with inventing most of the modern era inventions).
The answer was that they are both right - Liodygin did invent the first lightbulb, but Edison invented the first lightbulb that gave light.
:lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 16, 2014, 11:47:36 AM
Great news especially as I found out this week that Philae's a Muslim too.
Do tell.
Quote from: Jacob on November 16, 2014, 12:38:47 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 16, 2014, 11:47:36 AM
Great news especially as I found out this week that Philae's a Muslim too.
Do tell.
How disappointing; figured you would know that Philae was an ancient Egyptian reference.
Does this mean he thinks muslims are at fault for bringing western diseases to the americas?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 16, 2014, 01:19:01 PMHow disappointing; figured you would know that Philae was an ancient Egyptian reference.
And "ancient Egyptian" --> "muslim" somehow?
I thought Egyptians/Cleopatra = black? :unsure:
Quote from: Jacob on November 16, 2014, 01:35:49 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 16, 2014, 01:19:01 PMHow disappointing; figured you would know that Philae was an ancient Egyptian reference.
And "ancient Egyptian" --> "muslim" somehow?
I'm assuming that is Shiv's point, yeah.
Sorry nothing so high-brow or intellectual. I was just making a joke about the comet lander Philae :blush:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 16, 2014, 03:08:48 PM
Sorry nothing so high-brow or intellectual. I was just making a joke about the comet lander Philae :blush:
Were you wearing a coat and tie when you made that joke? If not, be prepared for the disdain of the Languish Highbrow Society.
Suleyman the Magnificent sent rockets to the moon in the 16th century. True story.
Erdogan's descent into Turkmenbashi territory will at least be highly amusing. If you don't live in Turkey. Or near Turkey.
Quote from: Viking on November 16, 2014, 05:40:59 AM
Unlike the claims that the Chinese did it, or the Welsh did it or the Musselmans did it the Icelanders did do it and we have y'know archeology.
In any case none of these putative and (one) real discovery really matter since they had no effect. This says more about Erdogan than about reality.
:yes:
I still wonder how far south the Norse got.
Manzikert.
Quote from: Caliga on November 16, 2014, 03:44:38 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 16, 2014, 05:40:59 AM
Unlike the claims that the Chinese did it, or the Welsh did it or the Musselmans did it the Icelanders did do it and we have y'know archeology.
In any case none of these putative and (one) real discovery really matter since they had no effect. This says more about Erdogan than about reality.
:yes:
I still wonder how far south the Norse got.
The Welsh made it to Colorado.
Was anyone actually yet discovered America? :moon:
Siege to Erdogan: Jews discovered Turkey in 12th century, BCE.
Quote from: mongers on November 16, 2014, 05:06:44 PM
Was anyone actually yet discovered America? :moon:
What's that in English?
Hey hey, no naked people in this thread!
Indeed. No one wants to see that pasty white thing!
Garbon, you are disgusting.
We both know you love white pasty things, specially if they come from fake white jews like me.
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 05:48:29 PM
Garbon, you are disgusting.
We both know you love white pasty things, specially if they come from fake white jews like me.
You make pastries now? Is that why your avatar is "Master chef"?
Quote from: Norgy on November 16, 2014, 03:36:41 PM
Suleyman the Magnificent sent rockets to the moon in the 16th century. True story.
Erdogan's descent into Turkmenbashi territory will at least be highly amusing. If you don't live in Turkey. Or near Turkey.
IDK. This is a tradition that goes back to the Empire. Turcocentrism goes back more than a century now. Look up Sun Language Theory.
I discovered Wyoming this morning.
Quote from: PDH on November 16, 2014, 07:00:21 PM
I discovered Wyoming this morning.
Oh yeah? Where was it?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 16, 2014, 05:52:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 05:48:29 PM
Garbon, you are disgusting.
We both know you love white pasty things, specially if they come from fake white jews like me.
You make pastries now? Is that why your avatar is "Master chef"?
My avatar is the Master Chief, because in this pop culture he resume all the values I stand for.
Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless service, Honor, Integrity, Personal courage.
LDRSHIP.
I am the real deal, and only the Master Chief can translate that into modern pop culture.
So there you go.
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 07:18:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 16, 2014, 05:52:47 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 05:48:29 PM
Garbon, you are disgusting.
We both know you love white pasty things, specially if they come from fake white jews like me.
You make pastries now? Is that why your avatar is "Master chef"?
My avatar is the Master Chief, because in this pop culture he resume all the values I stand for.
Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless service, Honor, Integrity, Personal courage.
LDRSHIP.
I am the real deal, and only the Master Chief can translate that into modern pop culture.
So there you go.
Halo sucks.
Halo might suck, but I do love light beer and kosher irish coffe cream.
Anyway FUCK MONKEYBUTT!!!!111
Get in line.
FUCK YOU
Such a sweet talker.
You will never be in my club.
How does it feel to be a coward/second class citizen/no military service?
Feels fine. You poors are mere cannon fodder for us.
There are no words to explain to you how it is like.
All the hardship, all the hard times that only an ulmust dedication to the social contrat can get you through.
All the training in the world cannot make you an American Soldier.
I have seen so many that thought they had what it takes for fail...
It is not the hunger for the kill...Not the hunger for the win.
It is Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless service, Honor, Integrity, Personal courage.
The Seven Army Values.
You will never understand.
You will be tested in all of the values at some point in your service.
Most people fail.
As far as the infantry goes.
Thre are 7 support faggots for every infantryman.
Yeah, we need the support dudes to accomplish our mission.
But they aint out there with us when the shit hits the fan.
Yeah, support guys are cool.
They aint infantry.
They never went through the rifles iniciation.
They have no fucking idea what it is like.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 16, 2014, 08:13:43 PM
Feels fine. You poors are mere cannon fodder for us.
Cannon fodder to protect your freedom, and very proud of it.
I would die a million times before losing my freedom or your freedom to disagree with me.
This is not about left or right, but about the right to be free and disagree.
When I raised my hand and spoke the words, it was to protect and defend the Constitution, for all citizens regardless of if I agree with them or not.
America is the greatest human experiment ever, and I stand by it in word and action.
Very proud of the flag I wear on my shoulder.
Stop agitating him, Ed.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 16, 2014, 08:23:22 PM
Stop agitating him, Ed.
We might have his Coors light so supercritical.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 16, 2014, 08:23:22 PM
Stop agitating him, Ed.
Fuck you CdM.
I do not need your protection.
You did motive me to take the step and sign up for another life time of PTSD.
Fuck you, CdM.
You do not control my decision making process.
I am an Americn Soldier.
I raised my hand, I spoke the words.
I do this for the whole of the American citenship.
You have no hold on me.
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 10:04:10 PM
I raised my hand, I spoke the words.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpixcdn.posterrevolution.com%2Fpr%2F10%2F874397f.jpg&hash=4d82c70e0abf080a4ed995e5e93ae6fbbe535e7d)
Dad chich from Disney Cahnel is hot.
Peter Wiggins, did you kno w that I am your little borther ehne I cannot remember my password????
Yes, I em Ender too.
Ender is my sack puppet.
Fukc uouty Peter.
:)
Well, that escalated quickly.
I guess it recoups partially with Kadhaffi's side of the story with the EMIR KA discovering it.
QuoteIn the personal vocabulary of the Guide of the Libyan Revolution, the ancestors of the native Americans also originated in northern Africa: America takes its name from one Emir Ka.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/the-whimsy-and-menace-of-moamer-kadhafi-20110227-1b9pu.html (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/the-whimsy-and-menace-of-moamer-kadhafi-20110227-1b9pu.html)
Technically speaking, don't Native Americans come from Africa? :huh:
Quote from: Queequeg on November 17, 2014, 02:36:57 AM
Technically speaking, don't Native Americans come from Africa? :huh:
Technically speaking, we all come from Africa.
No, our ancestors do.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 17, 2014, 07:55:29 AM
No, our ancestors do.
Well he did ask if Native Americans come from Africa, in your sense Native Americans come from America.
(First Nations from Canada and whatver ethnic slur the mexicans use for indians in Mexico)
Quote from: Viking on November 17, 2014, 06:38:36 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 17, 2014, 02:36:57 AM
Technically speaking, don't Native Americans come from Africa? :huh:
Technically speaking, we all come from Africa.
Nah. From the tower of babel.
Whoa, I have no memory of all that stupid shit I said in this thread.
Humiliating.
CdM, why did you let me make an ass of myself?
Ban my ass before I start saying stupid shit, not after!
Is Ender really your sock puppet? I thought he was supposed to be one of Meri's kids.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 19, 2014, 12:34:51 PM
Is Ender really your sock puppet? I thought he was supposed to be one of Meri's kids.
Maybe Ender really is his sock puppet.
And maybe Ender really is one of Meri's kids.
This could only be true if...oh my god. How did we not see it sooner?
Quote from: Siege on November 19, 2014, 12:33:22 PM
Whoa, I have no memory of all that stupid shit I said in this thread.
Humiliating.
CdM, why did you let me make an ass of myself?
Ban my ass before I start saying stupid shit, not after!
Only you can prevent forest fires, dipshit.
Get a grip on yourself. Stop drinking. You're obviously no good at it. You're raising a child now.
That would be trippier than finding out you and Guller were different people. Or finding out that you're the same person. Whenever we do find out for sure. :shifty:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 19, 2014, 12:34:51 PM
Is Ender really your sock puppet? I thought he was supposed to be one of Meri's kids.
What Ender?
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 11:02:23 PM
Peter Wiggins, did you kno w that I am your little borther ehne I cannot remember my password????
Quote from: Siege on November 16, 2014, 11:03:17 PM
Yes, I em Ender too.
Ender is my sack puppet.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 19, 2014, 12:38:22 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 19, 2014, 12:33:22 PM
Whoa, I have no memory of all that stupid shit I said in this thread.
Humiliating.
CdM, why did you let me make an ass of myself?
Ban my ass before I start saying stupid shit, not after!
Only you can prevent forest fires, dipshit.
Get a grip on yourself. Stop drinking. You're obviously no good at it. You're raising a child now.
TOUGHLOVE
I think ancestors of American Indians discovered Turkey long before Muslims might have found North America. ;)
As Oscar Wilde said America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.
Quote from: Siege on November 19, 2014, 12:27:01 PM
Quote from: Viking on November 17, 2014, 06:38:36 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on November 17, 2014, 02:36:57 AM
Technically speaking, don't Native Americans come from Africa? :huh:
Technically speaking, we all come from Africa.
Nah. From the tower of babel.
You do know the bible is fiction right?
Might be more accurate to say it's "based on actual events."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2014, 05:54:46 PM
Might be more accurate to say it's "based on actual events."
Probably not the tower of babel part though.
When it comes to the Tower of Babel, you guys don't know what you're talking about.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Fdce493e01d7658368904e59d0e7749b3%2Ftumblr_inline_mknsslvSzg1qz4rgp.jpg&hash=c0b4e56bd32e2e8e2b0efe3fc44c69b2efc0aee9)
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 05:17:17 PM
As Oscar Wilde said America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.
:D
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 05:17:17 PM
As Oscar Wilde said America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.
I've wondered, are you going to convert to Catholicism on your death bed like Wilde?
Catholicism is about fucking boys. :huh:
Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2014, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 05:17:17 PM
As Oscar Wilde said America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.
I've wondered, are you going to convert to Catholicism on your death bed like Wilde?
Hasn't Mart always said that was the plan?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 20, 2014, 03:05:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2014, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 05:17:17 PM
As Oscar Wilde said America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.
I've wondered, are you going to convert to Catholicism on your death bed like Wilde?
Hasn't Mart always said that was the plan?
Indeed. I just hope to go straight to a death bed conversion, without passing the scandal and jail time phases.
I would prefer this was in a warmer clime, like Southern Italy or Spain, perhaps, though.
Quote from: Martinus on November 20, 2014, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 20, 2014, 03:05:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2014, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 19, 2014, 05:17:17 PM
As Oscar Wilde said America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.
I've wondered, are you going to convert to Catholicism on your death bed like Wilde?
Hasn't Mart always said that was the plan?
Indeed. I just hope to go straight to a death bed conversion, without passing the scandal and jail time phases.
So, more Charles II than Wilde. ;)
Marti wishes to go straight? He is gay?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 20, 2014, 03:49:40 PM
Marti wishes to go straight? He is gay?
No, just hedging his bets. All lapsed Catholics do.
You could say that. Oscar Wilde should be taught in law schools - as well as literature classes - as an example of when to advise your client not to bring a civil lawsuit. ;)
Edit: this was in response to Malthus.
Quote from: Martinus on November 20, 2014, 03:51:32 PM
You could say that. Oscar Wilde should be taught in law schools - as well as literature classes - as an example of when to advise your client not to bring a civil lawsuit. ;)
Let's not go crazy.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 20, 2014, 03:50:31 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 20, 2014, 03:49:40 PM
Marti wishes to go straight? He is gay?
No, just hedging his bets. All lapsed Catholics do.
That's the beauty of Catholicism. Protestantism seems like a religion for chartered accountants.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 20, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 20, 2014, 03:51:32 PM
You could say that. Oscar Wilde should be taught in law schools - as well as literature classes - as an example of when to advise your client not to bring a civil lawsuit. ;)
Let's not go crazy.
I like the "Picture of Dorian Gray". ;)
All these people that talk about pre Columbian discovery forget that for discovery it had to be a two way trip.
Yes, I don't doubt Phoenicians and Egyptians could have made it to America, but I very much doubt they made it back.
Quote from: Siege on November 20, 2014, 04:07:05 PM
All these people that talk about pre Columbian discovery forget that for discovery it had to be a two way trip.
Yes, I don't doubt Phoenicians and Egyptians could have made it to America, but I very much doubt they made it back.
Well there goes any chance of discovery of an earth like planet :cry:
Quote from: Siege on November 20, 2014, 04:07:05 PM
All these people that talk about pre Columbian discovery forget that for discovery it had to be a two way trip.
Yes, I don't doubt Phoenicians and Egyptians could have made it to America, but I very much doubt they made it back.
Why would anyone go back to the Middle East?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 19, 2014, 05:54:46 PM
Might be more accurate to say it's "based on actual events."
Mel Gibson movies like The Patriot and Braveheart were based on actual events, so yeah, that would be fitting.
Bottom line, who cares?
Historically, the only effect discovery did was with Columbus expedition.
Who gives a fuck if anybody made it earlier, if it did not influence history and further exploration?
Columbus is the greatest explorer, ban none.
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 02:16:49 PM
Bottom line, who cares?
Historically, the only effect discovery did was with Columbus expedition.
Who gives a fuck if anybody made it earlier, if it did not influence history and further exploration?
Columbus is the greatest explorer, ban none.
Holy shit, Siegy makes a valid point for once. It doesn't matter since it is only relevant as to erdogan's honesty and/or ego stroking. It has nothing to do with america.
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 02:16:49 PM
Bottom line, who cares?
Historically, the only effect discovery did was with Columbus expedition.
Who gives a fuck if anybody made it earlier, if it did not influence history and further exploration?
Columbus is the greatest explorer, ban none.
That was the point I was making, half jokingly, too. Columbus was the only one who managed to "monetise" the discovery.
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 03:10:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 02:16:49 PM
Bottom line, who cares?
Historically, the only effect discovery did was with Columbus expedition.
Who gives a fuck if anybody made it earlier, if it did not influence history and further exploration?
Columbus is the greatest explorer, ban none.
That was the point I was making, half jokingly, too. Columbus was the only one who managed to "monetise" the discovery.
I don't know about monetize.
I think more in terms of returned investment.
Basicly, Columbus made it back, and that meant land to exploit.
Europe was already taken, palletized among owners.
America was open for exploitation.
This is what make the difference.
The land of opportunities.
In the world game for cultural supremacy, the only supremacy that matters, cultural perception of success, the Spaniards failed in attracting female immigrants to the Americas.
That meant Spaniards ended up marrying indian females, and having mixed children which meant mixed cultural perception of the economy.
This is not about racism, but about cultural efficiency.
There is a reason why the Spaniards got to America instead of the Aztecs or the Incas making it to Europe.
Native American culture was way behind, because it did not enjoy the Middle Eastern Package (Cereals, Sheep, Cows, Horses).
While Europe did.
Im sorry, but corn is not enough to make a civ.
And lets not talk about writing.
When you ask people what is the greatest invention ever, they always say the wheel.
It is writing, my friend.
The ability to transmit knowledge from one generation to the next.
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 03:10:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 02:16:49 PM
Bottom line, who cares?
Historically, the only effect discovery did was with Columbus expedition.
Who gives a fuck if anybody made it earlier, if it did not influence history and further exploration?
Columbus is the greatest explorer, ban none.
That was the point I was making, half jokingly, too. Columbus was the only one who managed to "monetise" the discovery.
I don't know about monetize.
I think more in terms of returned investment.
Basicly, Columbus made it back, and that meant land to exploit.
Europe was already taken, palletized among owners.
America was open for exploitation.
This is what make the difference.
The land of opportunities.
In the world game for cultural supremacy, the only supremacy that matters, cultural perception of success, the Spaniards failed in attracting female immigrants to the Americas.
That meant Spaniards ended up marrying indian females, and having mixed children which meant mixed cultural perception of the economy.
This is not about racism, but about cultural efficiency.
There is a reason why the Spaniards got to America instead of the Aztecs or the Incas making it to Europe.
Native American culture was way behind, because it did not enjoy the Middle Eastern Package (Cereals, Sheep, Cows, Horses).
While Europe did.
Im sorry, but corn is not enough to make a civ.
And lets not talk about writing.
When you ask people what is the greatest invention ever, they always say the wheel.
It is writing, my friend.
The ability to transmit knowledge from one generation to the next.
You really are a dumb bastard. What the hell is "cultural efficiency"?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
Good point.
They were a one-way travel expedition though.
See how in the polinessian world not all got the whole polinatan package, meaning pigs, chicken and rice.
The lack of uniformity in the spread of the Polynesian package leads to the perception of one-way trips during the Polynesian expand.
Don'y get me wrong, the Polynesian expand is definitively one of the greatest human expansions.
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 03:10:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 02:16:49 PM
Bottom line, who cares?
Historically, the only effect discovery did was with Columbus expedition.
Who gives a fuck if anybody made it earlier, if it did not influence history and further exploration?
Columbus is the greatest explorer, ban none.
That was the point I was making, half jokingly, too. Columbus was the only one who managed to "monetise" the discovery.
I don't know about monetize.
I think more in terms of returned investment.
Basicly, Columbus made it back, and that meant land to exploit.
Europe was already taken, palletized among owners.
America was open for exploitation.
This is what make the difference.
The land of opportunities.
In the world game for cultural supremacy, the only supremacy that matters, cultural perception of success, the Spaniards failed in attracting female immigrants to the Americas.
That meant Spaniards ended up marrying indian females, and having mixed children which meant mixed cultural perception of the economy.
This is not about racism, but about cultural efficiency.
There is a reason why the Spaniards got to America instead of the Aztecs or the Incas making it to Europe.
Native American culture was way behind, because it did not enjoy the Middle Eastern Package (Cereals, Sheep, Cows, Horses).
While Europe did.
Im sorry, but corn is not enough to make a civ.
And lets not talk about writing.
When you ask people what is the greatest invention ever, they always say the wheel.
It is writing, my friend.
The ability to transmit knowledge from one generation to the next.
Well this "cultural efficiency" is broadly what we call "monetise" these days. The language changed but the underlying idea remains - a discovery only makes sense if you are able to develop it, to use it and to gain from it (in the broad sense).
Btw, I thought at first you were writing a poem.
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 03:44:36 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: Martinus on November 23, 2014, 03:10:46 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 02:16:49 PM
Bottom line, who cares?
Historically, the only effect discovery did was with Columbus expedition.
Who gives a fuck if anybody made it earlier, if it did not influence history and further exploration?
Columbus is the greatest explorer, ban none.
That was the point I was making, half jokingly, too. Columbus was the only one who managed to "monetise" the discovery.
I don't know about monetize.
I think more in terms of returned investment.
Basicly, Columbus made it back, and that meant land to exploit.
Europe was already taken, palletized among owners.
America was open for exploitation.
This is what make the difference.
The land of opportunities.
In the world game for cultural supremacy, the only supremacy that matters, cultural perception of success, the Spaniards failed in attracting female immigrants to the Americas.
That meant Spaniards ended up marrying indian females, and having mixed children which meant mixed cultural perception of the economy.
This is not about racism, but about cultural efficiency.
There is a reason why the Spaniards got to America instead of the Aztecs or the Incas making it to Europe.
Native American culture was way behind, because it did not enjoy the Middle Eastern Package (Cereals, Sheep, Cows, Horses).
While Europe did.
Im sorry, but corn is not enough to make a civ.
And lets not talk about writing.
When you ask people what is the greatest invention ever, they always say the wheel.
It is writing, my friend.
The ability to transmit knowledge from one generation to the next.
Well this "cultural efficiency" is broadly what we call "monetise" these days. The language changed but the underlying idea remains - a discovery only makes sense if you are able to develop it, to use it and to gain from it (in the broad sense).
Btw, I thought at first you were writing a poem.
I thought it was a poem as well. I just couldn't figure out what language it was written in.
My bad.
I have a bad habit of pressing enter after using the dot(.).
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 03:40:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
Good point.
They were a one-way travel expedition though.
See how in the polinessian world not all got the whole polinatan package, meaning pigs, chicken and rice.
The lack of uniformity in the spread of the Polynesian package leads to the perception of one-way trips during the Polynesian expand.
Don'y get me wrong, the Polynesian expand is definitively one of the greatest human expansions.
Actually people did travel back and forth. They simply had no writing. They didn't have writing because the carrying capacity of the environment wasn't great enough to allow for cities and so there was no need to develop writing. There are people who live in Siberia who have language with a close affinity to that of some native peoples in the American South West. Pigs, Chicken and rice are not the result of some sort of a "cultural efficiency" or ability to "monetize". They are simple elements of geography. People can't increase "cultural efficiency" and invent pigs nor conjure up rice farms because of a desire to monetize their environment.
SiegeAnk.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 04:07:26 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 03:40:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
Good point.
They were a one-way travel expedition though.
See how in the polinessian world not all got the whole polinatan package, meaning pigs, chicken and rice.
The lack of uniformity in the spread of the Polynesian package leads to the perception of one-way trips during the Polynesian expand.
Don'y get me wrong, the Polynesian expand is definitively one of the greatest human expansions.
Actually people did travel back and forth. They simply had no writing. They didn't have writing because the carrying capacity of the environment wasn't great enough to allow for cities and so there was no need to develop writing. There are people who live in Siberia who have language with a close affinity to that of some native peoples in the American South West. Pigs, Chicken and rice are not the result of some sort of a "cultural efficiency" or ability to "monetize". They are simple elements of geography. People can't increase "cultural efficiency" and invent pigs nor conjure up rice farms because of a desire to monetize their environment.
Totally wrong.
Most archeologists see the lack of expansion of the Polynesian package as prove that there was not back and forth travel between the islands. Humans have never refuse the advantages of new domestic animals and agriculture.
Bottom line, if islanders see a pig or chicken, they adopt the pig or chicken.
Everywhere on earth packages are limited my geography and climate.
Since there are not climate differences in Polynesia, the lack of the package as they go farther out from the mainland suggest a one-way trip.
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 04:17:22 PM
Totally wrong.
Most archeologists see the lack of expansion of the Polynesian package as prove that there was not back and forth travel between the islands. Humans have never refuse the advantages of new domestic animals and agriculture.
Bottom line, if islanders see a pig or chicken, they adopt the pig or chicken.
Everywhere on earth packages are limited my geography and climate.
Since there are not climate differences in Polynesia, the lack of the package as they go farther out from the mainland suggest a one-way trip.
Adopting pigs and chickens is one thing, raising them is another. Why have you failed to adopt pigs?
Pigs and chickens aren't really suited to live everywhere, so people would have to spend resources making their environment habitable.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 04:17:22 PM
Totally wrong.
Most archeologists see the lack of expansion of the Polynesian package as prove that there was not back and forth travel between the islands. Humans have never refuse the advantages of new domestic animals and agriculture.
Bottom line, if islanders see a pig or chicken, they adopt the pig or chicken.
Everywhere on earth packages are limited my geography and climate.
Since there are not climate differences in Polynesia, the lack of the package as they go farther out from the mainland suggest a one-way trip.
Adopting pigs and chickens is one thing, raising them is another. Why have you failed to adopt pigs?
Adopting and raising is the same fucking thing.
Jews did not adopt pigs because the Torah says so. It was an active order not to.
You cannot say the same from another religions.
Come on man, be constructive.
There is no point in discussing things whose answer you already know.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 23, 2014, 05:04:30 PM
Pigs and chickens aren't really suited to live everywhere, so people would have to spend resources making their environment habitable.
Pigs, chicken, sheep, cows, can adapt to any terran environment short of open desert or deep tundra.
There is a reason why there are different types of domestic animals.
Environment would be your clue.
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 05:16:51 PM
Jews did not adopt pigs because the Torah says so.
Or perhaps the other way around. ;)
While Reza Aslan seems to be a Muslim Unitarian, Erdogan seems to be a Muslim Mormon.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 24, 2014, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 05:16:51 PM
Jews did not adopt pigs because the Torah says so.
Or perhaps the other way around. ;)
You really like to pock the lion.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRPJXv9SkXHiI6A81smP-nLNpKOW0O3NbsUCBW_qlEHSM5enxfqQ)
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 05:16:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: Siege on November 23, 2014, 04:17:22 PM
Totally wrong.
Most archeologists see the lack of expansion of the Polynesian package as prove that there was not back and forth travel between the islands. Humans have never refuse the advantages of new domestic animals and agriculture.
Bottom line, if islanders see a pig or chicken, they adopt the pig or chicken.
Everywhere on earth packages are limited my geography and climate.
Since there are not climate differences in Polynesia, the lack of the package as they go farther out from the mainland suggest a one-way trip.
Adopting pigs and chickens is one thing, raising them is another. Why have you failed to adopt pigs?
Adopting and raising is the same fucking thing.
Jews did not adopt pigs because the Torah says so. It was an active order not to.
You cannot say the same from another religions.
Come on man, be constructive.
There is no point in discussing things whose answer you already know.
Nope. You have no idea what the religious taboos of these people were. And raising animals is different then simply adopting them. Take Elephants. Elephants can be tamed but are not domesticated. They must be captured in the wild.
Ok, im stupid.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
I don't understand this take. Nobody has ever claimed that nobody was living over here when Columbus showed up, especially not Columbus. Yet somehow this idea is supposed to blow all of our minds for some reason.
'Columbus didn't discover America! There were people here!'
OMG there were? No fucking shit. But the definition of discover does not imply that you are the first person to ever find something.
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:55:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
I don't understand this take. Nobody has ever claimed that nobody was living over here when Columbus showed up, especially not Columbus. Yet somehow this idea is supposed to blow all of our minds for some reason.
'Columbus didn't discover America! There were people here!'
OMG there were? No fucking shit. But the definition of discover does not imply that you are the first person to ever find something.
What are you going on about? :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:55:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
I don't understand this take. Nobody has ever claimed that nobody was living over here when Columbus showed up, especially not Columbus. Yet somehow this idea is supposed to blow all of our minds for some reason.
'Columbus didn't discover America! There were people here!'
OMG there were? No fucking shit. But the definition of discover does not imply that you are the first person to ever find something.
This was a rebuttal that that Columbus was the first explorer to actually use the land and try to profit from it, which is not true since the people who showed up in the neolithic were trying to use the land to the best of their abilities.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 12:14:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:55:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
I don't understand this take. Nobody has ever claimed that nobody was living over here when Columbus showed up, especially not Columbus. Yet somehow this idea is supposed to blow all of our minds for some reason.
'Columbus didn't discover America! There were people here!'
OMG there were? No fucking shit. But the definition of discover does not imply that you are the first person to ever find something.
This was a rebuttal that that Columbus was the first explorer to actually use the land and try to profit from it, which is not true since the people who showed up in the neolithic were trying to use the land to the best of their abilities.
So, eh, those damn injuns and their imperialism?
Quote from: Viking on November 26, 2014, 12:30:43 AM
So, eh, those damn injuns and their imperialism?
I made no statement of the morality of their act, though there aren't any Mammoths here anymore.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 12:14:46 AM
Quote from: Valmy on November 25, 2014, 11:55:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 23, 2014, 03:35:13 PM
Well, the guys who showed up 10,000 years ago had an impact as well.
I don't understand this take. Nobody has ever claimed that nobody was living over here when Columbus showed up, especially not Columbus. Yet somehow this idea is supposed to blow all of our minds for some reason.
'Columbus didn't discover America! There were people here!'
OMG there were? No fucking shit. But the definition of discover does not imply that you are the first person to ever find something.
This was a rebuttal that that Columbus was the first explorer to actually use the land and try to profit from it, which is not true since the people who showed up in the neolithic were trying to use the land to the best of their abilities.
There is an implied requirement that, while doing so, you are maintaining a working connection with your place of origin.
In order to be a colony, you need to still have a metropolis. Otherwise, you are simply a ship wreck.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 12:38:19 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 26, 2014, 12:30:43 AM
So, eh, those damn injuns and their imperialism?
I made no statement of the morality of their act, though there aren't any Mammoths here anymore.
So, if only the Europeans had actually genocided the indians properly then there wouldn't be any indians protesting on columbus day, just like there are no mammoths, short faced bears, giant slotsh, saber tooth cats, dire wolves, giant beavers, terror birds and woolly rhinos protesting Native American Heritage day this year?
I did love the story in the Guardian about this that went through the various claimants. Aside from the Vikings it sounds like the only ones who may have actually got to the US were the Basques and Bristolians. The Basques went because they found there was so much cod. The Bristolians also went for the cod after discovering the Basques were salting cod before returning to Europe which could only be done online.
They tell the story of a very early explorer of America sailing round an undiscovered cape only to find a small flotilla of Basque fishermen in the bay :lol:
Shelf, that was a cool story.
I had never heard about the Basques coming to America.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:28:38 AM
I did love the story in the Guardian about this that went through the various claimants. Aside from the Vikings it sounds like the only ones who may have actually got to the US were the Basques and Bristolians. The Basques went because they found there was so much cod. The Bristolians also went for the cod after discovering the Basques were salting cod before returning to Europe which could only be done online.
They tell the story of a very early explorer of America sailing round an undiscovered cape only to find a small flotilla of Basque fishermen in the bay :lol:
Apparently, a basque relic (an axehead) was traded from hand to hand through the early North American aboriginies until it arrived and was ceremonially buried in ... Toronto. A century before any Europeans saw the place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_Site,_Wendat_(Huron)_Ancestral_Village
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:28:38 AM
They tell the story of a very early explorer of America sailing round an undiscovered cape only to find a small flotilla of Basque fishermen in the bay :lol:
That would make a great Monty Python sketch.
"I claim this bay in the name of his Majesty . . ."
"excuse me, trying to cast here."
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:28:38 AM
I did love the story in the Guardian about this that went through the various claimants. Aside from the Vikings it sounds like the only ones who may have actually got to the US were the Basques and Bristolians. The Basques went because they found there was so much cod. The Bristolians also went for the cod after discovering the Basques were salting cod before returning to Europe which could only be done online.
They tell the story of a very early explorer of America sailing round an undiscovered cape only to find a small flotilla of Basque fishermen in the bay :lol:
Yeah this is pretty common knowledge, although Basques were extremely important in the general Iberian shipmaking business so I think it's possible that Basque fishermen would have been around the first people to talk about how massive the Atlantic ocean was with Columbus, and then the first to hear that there was land over there. "The Basque History of the World" talks about Native American groups knowing some Basque.
I love the idea of native Americans also learning Bristolian. 'Gertlush' is a loan word in Huron :lol:
Quote from: Viking on November 26, 2014, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 26, 2014, 12:38:19 AM
Quote from: Viking on November 26, 2014, 12:30:43 AM
So, eh, those damn injuns and their imperialism?
I made no statement of the morality of their act, though there aren't any Mammoths here anymore.
So, if only the Europeans had actually genocided the indians properly then there wouldn't be any indians protesting on columbus day, just like there are no mammoths, short faced bears, giant slotsh, saber tooth cats, dire wolves, giant beavers, terror birds and woolly rhinos protesting Native American Heritage day this year?
What the hell are you on about?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:28:38 AM
I did love the story in the Guardian about this that went through the various claimants. Aside from the Vikings it sounds like the only ones who may have actually got to the US were the Basques and Bristolians. The Basques went because they found there was so much cod. The Bristolians also went for the cod after discovering the Basques were salting cod before returning to Europe which could only be done online.
They tell the story of a very early explorer of America sailing round an undiscovered cape only to find a small flotilla of Basque fishermen in the bay :lol:
Bretons too, there are good reasons why the French Expedition sailing form Brest and the English Expedition Sailing from Bristol found Newfoundland. My guess, everybody except the "explorer" had been there before.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 26, 2014, 10:28:38 AM
the Basques were salting cod before returning to Europe which could only be done online.
The Basques also invented the internet!?
If there were europeans in America before the Columbian Exchange, how come they didn't infect all the injuns with the plagues post columbian explorers did?
Quote from: Siege on December 01, 2014, 12:39:05 PM
If there were europeans in America before the Columbian Exchange, how come they didn't infect all the injuns with the plagues post columbian explorers did?
Well, we know that some Europeans were there before Columbus - namely, the Vikings who set up shop in Newfoundland. No plagues resulted.
It is perfectly possible for brief contact not to transfer deadly diseases - if, for example, the particular Euros who crossed were not ill, or if the contact between peoples was minimal. It may have taken weeks to cross - resulting in a low transmission rate.
When contact becomes prolonged and sustained, the odds of disease transmission go up.
Quote from: Malthus on December 01, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
Quote from: Siege on December 01, 2014, 12:39:05 PM
If there were europeans in America before the Columbian Exchange, how come they didn't infect all the injuns with the plagues post columbian explorers did?
Well, we know that some Europeans were there before Columbus - namely, the Vikings who set up shop in Newfoundland. No plagues resulted.
It is perfectly possible for brief contact not to transfer deadly diseases - if, for example, the particular Euros who crossed were not ill, or if the contact between peoples was minimal. It may have taken weeks to cross - resulting in a low transmission rate.
When contact becomes prolonged and sustained, the odds of disease transmission go up.
I hate the rationality with which you deflate all my conspiracy theories.
I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from. Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?
Quote from: Siege on December 01, 2014, 12:56:34 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 01, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
Quote from: Siege on December 01, 2014, 12:39:05 PM
If there were europeans in America before the Columbian Exchange, how come they didn't infect all the injuns with the plagues post columbian explorers did?
Well, we know that some Europeans were there before Columbus - namely, the Vikings who set up shop in Newfoundland. No plagues resulted.
It is perfectly possible for brief contact not to transfer deadly diseases - if, for example, the particular Euros who crossed were not ill, or if the contact between peoples was minimal. It may have taken weeks to cross - resulting in a low transmission rate.
When contact becomes prolonged and sustained, the odds of disease transmission go up.
I hate the rationality with which you deflate all my conspiracy theories.
He is a higher level Jew.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 01, 2014, 03:30:47 PM
I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from. Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?
The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.
Quote from: Malthus on December 01, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
Well, we know that some Europeans were there before Columbus - namely, the Vikings who set up shop in Newfoundland. No plagues resulted.
It is perfectly possible for brief contact not to transfer deadly diseases - if, for example, the particular Euros who crossed were not ill, or if the contact between peoples was minimal. It may have taken weeks to cross - resulting in a low transmission rate.
When contact becomes prolonged and sustained, the odds of disease transmission go up.
Or maybe it did wipe out that entire tribe. Who knows?
But likewise a short visit by Muslims was unlikely to convert Caribbean Islanders to Islam to the point they built a Mosque. We have not found any Temples to Odin.
There is, however, evidence of several indigenous Banksies :o
Quote from: Malthus on December 01, 2014, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 01, 2014, 03:30:47 PM
I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from. Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?
The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.
I believe Smallpox is most contagious after a person has shown symptoms. It also tends to arrive in waves and may not effect a region for a long time. I don't think it was common in Scandinavia during the Viking age. It's most common in areas with large urban areas which the Vikings didn't have a lot of.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 02, 2014, 01:00:38 AM
It's most common in areas with large urban areas which the Vikings didn't have a lot of.
I don't think this is true. Smallpox was rather notorious for devastating large rural areas.
Now granted it could both devastate rural areas and be most common in large urban areas at the same time. But outside of Italy there were barely any urban areas anywhere in Europe (or at least Catholic Europe).
Quote from: Valmy on December 02, 2014, 01:14:21 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 02, 2014, 01:00:38 AM
It's most common in areas with large urban areas which the Vikings didn't have a lot of.
I don't think this is true. Smallpox was rather notorious for devastating large rural areas.
Now granted it could both devastate rural areas and be most common in large urban areas at the same time. But outside of Italy there were barely any urban areas anywhere in Europe (or at least Catholic Europe).
Small pox wasn't common in Europe until the high middle ages where you do see the return of large urban areas. It may have existed in Roman Europe, but seems to have been hampered by the depopulation of dark ages.
Quote from: Malthus on December 01, 2014, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 01, 2014, 03:30:47 PM
I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from. Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?
The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.
Climate wasn't really an issue. Distance was. It took longer to travel to iceland than it did to the carribean from spain. The plague itself only managed to reach iceland in the 14th century when the property of an icelandic plague victim resident in denmark was sent home after the outbreak ended in denmark. To survive the transit to america rats or men would need to survive 2 weeks between norway and iceland, 1 week to greenland and 1 week to vinland in an open boat (as opposed to a ship like the caravel). Furthermore, due to the low population density in the region of embarcation it's unlikely that the sailors might encounter an infected person, compared to say Cadiz or Lisboa.
Quote from: Viking on December 02, 2014, 05:24:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 01, 2014, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 01, 2014, 03:30:47 PM
I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from. Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?
The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.
Climate wasn't really an issue. Distance was. It took longer to travel to iceland than it did to the carribean from spain. The plague itself only managed to reach iceland in the 14th century when the property of an icelandic plague victim resident in denmark was sent home after the outbreak ended in denmark. To survive the transit to america rats or men would need to survive 2 weeks between norway and iceland, 1 week to greenland and 1 week to vinland in an open boat (as opposed to a ship like the caravel). Furthermore, due to the low population density in the region of embarcation it's unlikely that the sailors might encounter an infected person, compared to say Cadiz or Lisboa.
Yeah, Smallpox requires a human to have symptoms to be transmitted - there are no asymptomatic carriers. Given its relatively short incubation period (I think it is like 12 days), most people would have died or recovered before they got to America via the Greenland route - so it would not be transmitted unless there was en-route infection.
Also, Viking encounters with natives appear to have been totally hostile, so there was less chance of transmission than if they peacefully cohabited.
It seems to have taken a while for smallpox to get going in the New World. The first epidemic seems to have been in 1518 and more or less finished off the Taino, that later spread to the mainland but of course they were being invaded by Cortes and an army is a good way of spreading disease.
"Army" is rather stretching it :P
But yeah it turned out to be the winning card for Cortes.
An army back then was any large group of people on an military mission.
Cortez had 500 dudes and a little cannon.
I would call that an army. Definitively an expeditionary force, though that term would be ahistorical for the times.
Correction.
Cortez had 16 guns, 13 brigantines, about 100 cavalry and a little over 1,000 infantry.
Plus his injuns allies.
Quote from: Malthus on December 02, 2014, 09:31:57 AM
Quote from: Viking on December 02, 2014, 05:24:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 01, 2014, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 01, 2014, 03:30:47 PM
I imagine it had something to do with the climate the horn heads came from. Typhus, cholera and the like are warm weather diseases, aren't they?
The real killer was Smallpox. Not sure if climate had an effect on that one, or if the Vikings could have been carriers.
Climate wasn't really an issue. Distance was. It took longer to travel to iceland than it did to the carribean from spain. The plague itself only managed to reach iceland in the 14th century when the property of an icelandic plague victim resident in denmark was sent home after the outbreak ended in denmark. To survive the transit to america rats or men would need to survive 2 weeks between norway and iceland, 1 week to greenland and 1 week to vinland in an open boat (as opposed to a ship like the caravel). Furthermore, due to the low population density in the region of embarcation it's unlikely that the sailors might encounter an infected person, compared to say Cadiz or Lisboa.
Yeah, Smallpox requires a human to have symptoms to be transmitted - there are no asymptomatic carriers. Given its relatively short incubation period (I think it is like 12 days), most people would have died or recovered before they got to America via the Greenland route - so it would not be transmitted unless there was en-route infection.
Also, Viking encounters with natives appear to have been totally hostile, so there was less chance of transmission than if they peacefully cohabited.
Not totally hostile. Initially they weren't hostile. However it did go pearshaped pretty damn quickly since the indians had a habit of borrowing metal tools without asking and the vikings had the habit of killing thieves. iirc They spent two summers there and then left as indian raiding grew more insistent. Remember, they only had two ships and were at most 60 people. The the choice was send off 30 to try and get help or just return to greenland.
The norse failed in that they didn't have the printing press.
Had they used proper printed propaganda the word about a fertile land would have attracted many adventurers, failed farmers, and outcasted traders.
Quote from: Siege on December 02, 2014, 03:39:25 PM
The norse failed in that they didn't have the printing press.
Had they used proper printed propaganda the word about a fertile land would have attracted many adventurers, failed farmers, and outcasted traders.
It did - but they were still a trifle sore about that whole "Greenland" promotion, and so unwilling to invest in "Vinland". ;)
Quote from: Viking on December 02, 2014, 03:29:50 PM
Not totally hostile. Initially they weren't hostile. However it did go pearshaped pretty damn quickly since the indians had a habit of borrowing metal tools without asking and the vikings had the habit of killing thieves. iirc They spent two summers there and then left as indian raiding grew more insistent. Remember, they only had two ships and were at most 60 people. The the choice was send off 30 to try and get help or just return to greenland.
The Viking explorers sound like they made very bad neighbours. Local natives very quickly took to a 'shoot on sight' policy.
Hell, didn't one group of them murder off another, when they found the other group squatting in their longhouse? I guess having a whole new continent wasn't big enough for the both of them. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on December 02, 2014, 03:44:35 PM
Quote from: Viking on December 02, 2014, 03:29:50 PM
Not totally hostile. Initially they weren't hostile. However it did go pearshaped pretty damn quickly since the indians had a habit of borrowing metal tools without asking and the vikings had the habit of killing thieves. iirc They spent two summers there and then left as indian raiding grew more insistent. Remember, they only had two ships and were at most 60 people. The the choice was send off 30 to try and get help or just return to greenland.
The Viking explorers sound like they made very bad neighbours. Local natives very quickly took to a 'shoot on sight' policy.
Hell, didn't one group of them murder off another, when they found the other group squatting in their longhouse? I guess having a whole new continent wasn't big enough for the both of them. :lol:
No, the settlement was carried out by one homestead lead by one chief. The norse were perfectly happy to murder each other regularly, but here, this was not the case.
And, yes, Vikings were very very very very bad neighbors.
Which kind of neighbors is it that everybody needs?
Quote from: Viking on December 02, 2014, 03:59:06 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 02, 2014, 03:44:35 PM
Quote from: Viking on December 02, 2014, 03:29:50 PM
Not totally hostile. Initially they weren't hostile. However it did go pearshaped pretty damn quickly since the indians had a habit of borrowing metal tools without asking and the vikings had the habit of killing thieves. iirc They spent two summers there and then left as indian raiding grew more insistent. Remember, they only had two ships and were at most 60 people. The the choice was send off 30 to try and get help or just return to greenland.
The Viking explorers sound like they made very bad neighbours. Local natives very quickly took to a 'shoot on sight' policy.
Hell, didn't one group of them murder off another, when they found the other group squatting in their longhouse? I guess having a whole new continent wasn't big enough for the both of them. :lol:
No, the settlement was carried out by one homestead lead by one chief. The norse were perfectly happy to murder each other regularly, but here, this was not the case.
And, yes, Vikings were very very very very bad neighbors.
I'm thinking of this passage from the "Saga of the Greenlanders":
QuoteFreydis Eiriksottir, the daughter of Eirik, proposed a voyage with the brothers Helgi and Finnbogi to travel to Vinland together and share the profits fifty-fifty. After the brothers agreed to the proposal, Freydis turned to her brother Leif because she wished to have the housing he built in Vinland. Leif said she may borrow them, but she could not have them for herself.
The agreement between Freydis and Helgi and Finnbogi was that each could have no more than 30 men on board and then women as well. This agreement was made to ensure that neither side had an unfair advantage against the other, but Freydis quickly double crossed her partners and brought along 5 extra men.
Upon arrival at Vinland, the brothers arrived slightly earlier and unloaded their belongings into Leif's house. When Freydis realized what they had done she immediately made them remove their things and so the brothers built their own longhouse. After a winter of small disputes, Freydis arose early one morning to go speak with the brothers. Finnbogi was the only one awake and he stepped out to hear what Freydis had to say.
Finnbogi explained his dislike for the ill feelings between their two parties and hoped to clear the air with Freydis. She agreed and offered a trade. The brothers wanted to stay in Vinland, but Freydis was ready to go back home; she suggested they trade ships since the brothers had a much larger one than she did and it would be of better use bringing back her people and her half of the profits. Finnbogi agreed to this and the two parted.
Once Freydis returned home, her cold, wet feet awoke her husband, Thorvard. He asks where she has been and she spins a tale much different from the actual events that took place. She says she offered to buy the brother's ship but they became angry and struck her. Freydis then continued to manipulate her husband till he agreed to avenge her. If he hadn't she threatened divorce.
Thorvard took his men and began tying up all the men from the other camp in a sneak attack while they were still sleeping. Freydis had each man killed on the spot if they belonged to Finnbogi and Helgi's crew. Soon only the 5 women were left alive, but no man would dare kill them. In response Freydis says, "Hand me an axe." She made quick work of slaying the women and she became very pleased with how well her morning had gone. She told all involved that anyone who speaks a word of the events would be killed. The plan was to say that the brothers chose to stay behind in Vinland while Freydis returned to Greenland.
Once back home, Freydis returned to the farm and was sure that her crew was well rewarded for the trip to Vinland in order to keep them quiet about her dastardly deeds. Eventually though, Leif caught wind of what had happened and he was furious. He predicted, "that their descendants will not get on well in this world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_the_Greenlanders
Was Freydis hott?
Did she cheat on Thorvard with Finnbogi, and then convinced Thorvard to kill Finnbogi to hide the deed?
Quote from: Siege on December 02, 2014, 04:55:05 PM
Was Freydis hott?
Did she cheat on Thorvard with Finnbogi, and then convinced Thorvard to kill Finnbogi to hide the deed?
Apparently, she not only personally slaughtered five women with an axe - she also scared off a bunch of attacking natives by slapping a sword against her bare breasts (that, after the men had all run off).
QuoteFreydis came out and saw how they were retreating. She called out, "Why run you away from such worthless creatures, stout men that ye are, when, as seems to me likely, you might slaughter them like so many cattle? Let me but have a weapon, I think I could fight better than any of you." They gave no heed to what she said. Freydis endeavoured to accompany them, still she soon lagged behind, because she was not well; she went after them into the wood, and the Skrælingar directed their pursuit after her. She came upon a dead man; Thorbrand, Snorri's son, with a flat stone fixed in his head; his sword lay beside him, so she took it up and prepared to defend herself therewith.
Then came the Skrælingar upon her. She let down her sark and struck her breast with the naked sword. At this they were frightened, rushed off to their boats, and fled away. Karlsefni and the rest came up to her and praised her zeal. (Trans. J. Sephton)
Not a lady you want to cross, methinks! :lol:
Edit: she was just carrying on the family tradition - her dad got himself kicked out of Norway for being 'too violent', moved to Iceland - and got himself kicked out of Iceland for being too violent!
He was too violent for
other Vikings.
And you wonder why the Nordic countries have been so far ahead in women's lib.
Wasn't Erik a murderer, and twice declared an outlaw (once in Norway and once in Iceland) for killings?
Quote from: Siege on December 02, 2014, 03:20:06 PM
An army back then was any large group of people on an military mission.
Cortez had 500 dudes and a little cannon.
I would call that an army. Definitively an expeditionary force, though that term would be ahistorical for the times.
They were not soldiers though, just a bunch of Europeans from various locales who came together to seek their fortune. Cortes was certainly no general. He was an attorney and politician though which was probably a good thing to be in the tangled political situation he walked into.
Quote from: Caliga on December 02, 2014, 11:00:49 PM
Wasn't Erik a murderer, and twice declared an outlaw (once in Norway and once in Iceland) for killings?
Yup. As I said - the daughter was just carrying on the family traditions. ;)
It just isn't too surprising that they did not get along with the locals in Newfoundland - even other Vikings couldn't stand them!
Nice gal to bring home to meet the parents, and settle down with for a nice, quiet, peaceful life....