I had recently read that quite a few Canadians served in the US army during the US Civil war. Wikipedia cites 33,000-55,000, but it's Wikipedia so I don't know how accurate that is. So I'm kinda curious, how did Canadians feel about the war to their south and did their opinions inform the British government in how it responded to the war?
Just guesses, but:
1) I would suspect that most Canadians were pretty anti-slavery, and so would be opposed to the goals of the Confederacy, but
2) those numbers seem high, and
3) I doubt the British government gave a damn what Canadians thought about the war.
Quote from: dps on July 11, 2014, 06:34:38 AM
Just guesses, but:
1) I would suspect that most Canadians were pretty anti-slavery,
They would be, wouldn't they?
A lot of slaves escaped to Canada. I imagine some of them joined the Union Army once they were able.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 11, 2014, 08:08:43 AM
A lot of slaves escaped to Canada. I imagine some of them joined the Union Army once they were able.
That makes sense. I recall after the Dred Scott entire communities packed up and left for Canada. If that was the main source of those 30,000+ volunteers then that would explain it.
I would have been like fuck y'all and your racist country. I ain't coming back for nothing.
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2014, 08:24:31 AM
I would have been like fuck y'all and your racist country. I ain't coming back for nothing.
The township in which my family's close cottage [US: "cabin"] is located was first settled by US Blacks. They all left after the Civil War. Reasons: cold, remote from anywhere, crappy farmland.
It's been 12 years, Malthus, if they don't know we call those things Cottages now, they'll never learn.
In the town I grew up in there was a black family whose last name was "Canada". Always wondered how their ancestors had adopted that name. I'm guessing either they were headed for Canada or went there & came back.
Quote from: Malthus on July 11, 2014, 08:40:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 11, 2014, 08:24:31 AM
I would have been like fuck y'all and your racist country. I ain't coming back for nothing.
The township in which my family's close cottage [US: "cabin"] is located was first settled by US Blacks. They all left after the Civil War. Reasons: cold, remote from anywhere, crappy farmland.
True. I almost put in that caveat. -_-
Quote from: Grey Fox on July 11, 2014, 09:06:04 AM
It's been 12 years, Malthus, if they don't know we call those things Cottages now, they'll never learn.
I'll admit it was a bit shocking to hear that Malthus is so open about his family's close cruisy public restroom.
The main impact of the Civil War in Canada is that it (and the huge US army that resulted) was a leading factor in Confederation, which happened in 1867 but negotiations started in 1864.
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2014, 09:27:49 AM
The main impact of the Civil War in Canada is that it (and the huge US army that resulted) was a leading factor in Confederation, which happened in 1867 but negotiations started in 1864.
As long as it didn't somehow result in curling becoming widely accepted. We have enough on our conscience without that.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of that number were white Canadians. One of the biggest motivators to joining the Union Army was financial, relative to many other things it was very rewarding financially and there were various bonuses offered and such. While there were famous draft riots, the vast majority of Union Army soldiers were volunteers, and paid substitutes (paid for by persons drafted who did not wish to serve) outnumbered actual conscripts--at 6% of Union forces versus 2% for actual conscripts.
While there were also lots of desertions (I imagine sometimes you got buyer's remorse after your first nasty battle), the large number of persons willing to be paid to replace draftees and the people clamoring for the various bonuses the Union Army offered there was definitely a large segment of the population who saw serving in the Army as a financial benefit. They would prove to be correct to some degree going forward as well, as they all received life pensions and such eventually as well.
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2014, 09:27:49 AM
The main impact of the Civil War in Canada is that it (and the huge US army that resulted) was a leading factor in Confederation, which happened in 1867 but negotiations started in 1864.
Damn, the US had a great chance to bring Canada into the Union! ;)
Quote from: KRonn on July 11, 2014, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2014, 09:27:49 AM
The main impact of the Civil War in Canada is that it (and the huge US army that resulted) was a leading factor in Confederation, which happened in 1867 but negotiations started in 1864.
Damn, the US had a great chance to bring Canada into the Union! ;)
Yeah, using best to prevent that was one of the main reasons for Confederation. But for that we too would have dysfunctional health care.
But more importantly the new Canada-United States union would have won 11 Olympic Hockey Gold Medals. Instead you tragically have to be happy with 9.
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2014, 01:03:17 PM
But more importantly the new Canada-United States union would have won 11 Olympic Hockey Gold Medals. Instead you tragically have to be happy with 9.
:lol:
Well the number seemed high to me. I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with. There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise. Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Well the number seemed high to me. I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with. There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise. Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.
Recognizing the Confederacy and being allied with them is another matter.
Had the South won Gettysburg, this could have had the same impact in Europe as Sarratoga had in the American Revolution.
Anyway. I suspect we could find many different categories of people:
- Lots of people from Canada, French Canadians mostly, emigrated to the US between 1840-1930, in search of job opportunities. It's possible people from here, unemployed and without lands felt it was a good idea to join their distant cousin in the war going on in the south.
- Free blacks.
- Anti-slavery elements in the British society.
I suspect it's mostly #1, english and french canadians living and working in the US, soon joined by friends and family members in search of opportunity.
Plus it's cold as balls in Canada.
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2014, 03:09:33 PM
Plus it's cold as balls in Canada.
But there's no snakes or venomous spiders. Or 'gators. It's a good tradeoff.
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2014, 03:09:33 PM
Plus it's cold as balls in Canada.
Clearly you have not spent a winter in Chicago.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Well the number seemed high to me. I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with. There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise. Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.
Remember it's the British government who talked of aligning or aiding the south, not politicians in Canada. Cross-border ties between the NE US and Canada have always been strong. Border controls were also loose to non-existant at the time
It was? Well when did that change? The border between Canada and the US is absurd.
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2014, 03:43:40 PM
It was? Well when did that change? The border between Canada and the US is absurd.
Border controls used to be a lot looser in my memory. Things got noticably worse after 9/11.
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 11, 2014, 03:25:51 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 11, 2014, 03:09:33 PM
Plus it's cold as balls in Canada.
Clearly you have not spent a winter in Chicago.
Not an entire winter, no. I'm not that stupid.
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2014, 03:43:40 PM
It was? Well when did that change? The border between Canada and the US is absurd.
Probably around the time you were required to have a passport to cross the border.
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2014, 03:43:40 PM
It was? Well when did that change? The border between Canada and the US is absurd.
When I went to Niagara Falls in the late 80s it was a joke. It's only fairly recently that you needed a passport.
Quote from: Barrister on July 11, 2014, 03:49:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2014, 03:43:40 PM
It was? Well when did that change? The border between Canada and the US is absurd.
Probably around the time you were required to have a passport to cross the border.
For land crossings, that would be - 2009.
http://canada.usembassy.gov/traveling_to_canada/passport-requirements.html
Quote from: Valmy on July 11, 2014, 03:43:40 PM
It was? Well when did that change? The border between Canada and the US is absurd.
Relatively recently. A guy on my college basketball team lived just across the border. They would just wave him through whenever he wanted to cross because they got to know him so well at that crossing. Up until 9/11 I would also essentially be waved over the border with no questions other than "Canadian citizen?" and when I answered "Yes sir" getting a "have a good time" in response.
It wasn't 2009 when the crossing got annoying, it was def right in the wake of 9/11. I don't actually remember it being worse since the passport requirement kicked in, in terms of the crossing, just now Americans or Canadians who didn't previously have a passport have to get one to cross over.
It's a real shame too, it used to be almost as easy as going from one Schengen country to the next. I don't ever see it reversing either, it's one of those things like draconian criminal laws, it's hard to be in favor of making the border "less secure", even though the long lines and painful processes almost certainly do economic harm to some degree while providing virtually no net security increase.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Well the number seemed high to me. I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with.
Yeah, I agree. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 2% of their male population. That's about the same percentage of the US male population that served, and that just can't be right.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Well the number seemed high to me. I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with. There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise. Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.
There were at least a couple of thousand British volunteers who fought for the Union.
In terms of Britain the Civil War is I think an interesting example of the move between two eras. The elite, generally speaking, supported recognising the Confederacy. Our PM at the time was Lord Palmerston who was probably the most amoral, cynical, foreign policy led PM we've ever had (and wonderful for it) was fine with British shipbuilders and traders trying to make as much as they could out of either side. But he was mainly concerned with Europe, if it was to the UK's advantage to recognise the CSA he would've pushed for it (and there were a couple of times it came close).
But at the same time the emerging middle and working class were staunchly pro-Union. There's the famous example of cotton workers meeting in Free Trade Hall in the middle of the war and despite their economic conditions still deteriorating they passed a motion to send a letter to Lincoln praising him and the Union for their efforts to end slavery. He replied with a very gracious letter and was a bit of a hero to the middle and working class in the new industrial north.
The politics of the Civil War here are at the real cusp of the old Whig-ish politics, like Palmerston, and the start of new popular democracy. It's just between the founding of the Liberal Party and Disraeli's huge Reform Act.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 11, 2014, 05:07:34 PM
It wasn't 2009 when the crossing got annoying, it was def right in the wake of 9/11. I don't actually remember it being worse since the passport requirement kicked in, in terms of the crossing, just now Americans or Canadians who didn't previously have a passport have to get one to cross over.
It's a real shame too, it used to be almost as easy as going from one Schengen country to the next. I don't ever see it reversing either, it's one of those things like draconian criminal laws, it's hard to be in favor of making the border "less secure", even though the long lines and painful processes almost certainly do economic harm to some degree while providing virtually no net security increase.
I think the British and Irish governments had a better attitude to border controls and terrorism during 'The Troubles', you could cross between Ireland and Mainland Britain without a passport and all you had to do was tick a box on a form testify that you weren't involved in terrorism. :bowler:
That at a time when car bombs and explosives were actually moved across the Irish sea on those ferries.
I remember reading that you didn't need a passport to travel across Europe until the First World War. It was very easy to travel across the continent, if you could afford it, by rail.
Canada sucks.
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2014, 03:07:01 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Well the number seemed high to me. I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with. There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise. Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.
Recognizing the Confederacy and being allied with them is another matter.
Had the South won Gettysburg, this could have had the same impact in Europe as Sarratoga had in the American Revolution.
Anyway. I suspect we could find many different categories of people:
- Lots of people from Canada, French Canadians mostly, emigrated to the US between 1840-1930, in search of job opportunities. It's possible people from here, unemployed and without lands felt it was a good idea to join their distant cousin in the war going on in the south.
- Free blacks.
- Anti-slavery elements in the British society.
I suspect it's mostly #1, english and french canadians living and working in the US, soon joined by friends and family members in search of opportunity.
Recognition of the Confederacy equals war. Lincoln made that very clear. Had the South won at Gettysburg, it would mean very little. They would fight another battle fairly soon in Pennsylvania then another one and another until they lost. European recognition wasn't going to happen after 1862 and possibly ever. Saratoga brought French support because it totally destroyed a British army. Battles of annihilation didn't happen much in the US Civil war.
Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate. God knows why. I guess they just like being wrong up there.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 06:18:54 PM
Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate. God knows why.
The idea of independance from central government. See, I am God, since I know why.
Nevertheless, only a few hundred people from Canada served in the South, most fought for the Union.
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2014, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 06:18:54 PM
Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate. God knows why.
The idea of independance from central government. See, I am God, since I know why.
He didn't say God was the only one who knew. :P
Quote from: viper37 on July 11, 2014, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 06:18:54 PM
Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate. God knows why.
The idea of independance from central government. See, I am God, since I know why.
Nevertheless, only a few hundred people from Canada served in the South, most fought for the Union.
Yet the idea was not appealing in 1775.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 11, 2014, 05:53:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 11, 2014, 01:29:35 PM
Well the number seemed high to me. I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with. There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise. Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.
There were at least a couple of thousand British volunteers who fought for the Union.
In terms of Britain the Civil War is I think an interesting example of the move between two eras. The elite, generally speaking, supported recognising the Confederacy. Our PM at the time was Lord Palmerston who was probably the most amoral, cynical, foreign policy led PM we've ever had (and wonderful for it) was fine with British shipbuilders and traders trying to make as much as they could out of either side. But he was mainly concerned with Europe, if it was to the UK's advantage to recognise the CSA he would've pushed for it (and there were a couple of times it came close).
But at the same time the emerging middle and working class were staunchly pro-Union. There's the famous example of cotton workers meeting in Free Trade Hall in the middle of the war and despite their economic conditions still deteriorating they passed a motion to send a letter to Lincoln praising him and the Union for their efforts to end slavery. He replied with a very gracious letter and was a bit of a hero to the middle and working class in the new industrial north.
The politics of the Civil War here are at the real cusp of the old Whig-ish politics, like Palmerston, and the start of new popular democracy. It's just between the founding of the Liberal Party and Disraeli's huge Reform Act.
This was when there was a lot of agitation for Universal manhood suffrage, right? I can't help but think that a move to reconignize the confederacy by the government (which would likely lead to war), would be a political disaster for the British empire.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2014, 07:28:40 AM
This was when there was a lot of agitation for Universal manhood suffrage, right? I can't help but think that a move to reconignize the confederacy by the government (which would likely lead to war), would be a political disaster for the British empire.
It was after that really. Chartism's the great movement for universal suffrage and it's petered out by the 1850s. But you've got John Bright agitating within Parliament. Gladstone's becoming 'the People's William' and on the tour to Newcastle where he famously said Jefferson Davis had 'made a nation' he also said he saw no principled reason to oppose universal suffrage for working men.
Britain is a good example in support of my belief in a restrictive democracy, greatest country in the world with a limited franchise, embarrassment with a full franchise.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2014, 04:02:32 AM
Yet the idea was not appealing in 1775.
It was to those who fought alongside the Americans who tried to take Quebec.
But to most, no, it wasn't. Something to do with the people claiming all French should be deported and Catholics were devils who shouldn't be allowed to practice their religion a few years earlier.
Lots of things changes in 100 years.
You know that is not what I meant. :P
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on July 12, 2014, 10:15:00 AM
Britain is a good example in support of my belief in a restrictive democracy, greatest country in the world with a limited franchise, embarrassment with a full franchise.
Pretty much, yeah.