Canada in the US Civil War

[crazy canuck]

It was?  Well when did that change?  The border between Canada and the US is absurd.

Relatively recently.  A guy on my college basketball team lived just across the border.  They would just wave him through whenever he wanted to cross because they got to know him so well at that crossing.  Up until 9/11 I would also essentially be waved over the border with no questions other than "Canadian citizen?"  and when I answered "Yes sir" getting a "have a good time" in response.

[OttoVonBismarck]

It wasn't 2009 when the crossing got annoying, it was def right in the wake of 9/11. I don't actually remember it being worse since the passport requirement kicked in, in terms of the crossing, just now Americans or Canadians who didn't previously have a passport have to get one to cross over.

It's a real shame too, it used to be almost as easy as going from one Schengen country to the next. I don't ever see it reversing either, it's one of those things like draconian criminal laws, it's hard to be in favor of making the border "less secure", even though the long lines and painful processes almost certainly do economic harm to some degree while providing virtually no net security increase.

[dps]

Well the number seemed high to me.  I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with. 

Yeah, I agree.  That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 2% of their male population.  That's about the same percentage of the US male population that served, and that just can't be right. 

[Sheilbh]

Well the number seemed high to me.  I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with.  There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise.  Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.

There were at least a couple of thousand British volunteers who fought for the Union.

In terms of Britain the Civil War is I think an interesting example of the move between two eras. The elite, generally speaking, supported recognising the Confederacy. Our PM at the time was Lord Palmerston who was probably the most amoral, cynical, foreign policy led PM we've ever had (and wonderful for it) was fine with British shipbuilders and traders trying to make as much as they could out of either side. But he was mainly concerned with Europe, if it was to the UK's advantage to recognise the CSA he would've pushed for it (and there were a couple of times it came close).

But at the same time the emerging middle and working class were staunchly pro-Union. There's the famous example of cotton workers meeting in Free Trade Hall in the middle of the war and despite their economic conditions still deteriorating they passed a motion to send a letter to Lincoln praising him and the Union for their efforts to end slavery. He replied with a very gracious letter and was a bit of a hero to the middle and working class in the new industrial north.

The politics of the Civil War here are at the real cusp of the old Whig-ish politics, like Palmerston, and the start of new popular democracy. It's just between the founding of the Liberal Party and Disraeli's huge Reform Act.

[mongers]

It wasn't 2009 when the crossing got annoying, it was def right in the wake of 9/11. I don't actually remember it being worse since the passport requirement kicked in, in terms of the crossing, just now Americans or Canadians who didn't previously have a passport have to get one to cross over.

It's a real shame too, it used to be almost as easy as going from one Schengen country to the next. I don't ever see it reversing either, it's one of those things like draconian criminal laws, it's hard to be in favor of making the border "less secure", even though the long lines and painful processes almost certainly do economic harm to some degree while providing virtually no net security increase.

I think the British and Irish governments had a better attitude to border controls and terrorism during 'The Troubles', you could cross between Ireland and Mainland Britain without a passport and all you had to do was tick a box on a form testify that you weren't involved in terrorism.   

That at a time when car bombs and explosives were actually moved across the Irish sea on those ferries. 

[Sheilbh]

I remember reading that you didn't need a passport to travel across Europe until the First World War. It was very easy to travel across the continent, if you could afford it, by rail.

[Ed Anger]

Canada sucks.

[Razgovory]

Well the number seemed high to me.  I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with.  There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise.  Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.

Recognizing the Confederacy and being allied with them is another matter.
Had the South won Gettysburg, this could have had the same impact in Europe as Sarratoga had in the American Revolution.

Anyway.  I suspect we could find many different categories of people:
- Lots of people from Canada, French Canadians mostly, emigrated to the US between 1840-1930, in search of job opportunities.  It's possible people from here, unemployed and without lands felt it was a good idea to join their distant cousin in the war going on in the south.
- Free blacks.
- Anti-slavery elements in the British society.

I suspect it's mostly #1, english and french canadians living and working in the US, soon joined by friends and family members in search of opportunity.

Recognition of the Confederacy equals war.  Lincoln made that very clear.  Had the South won at Gettysburg, it would mean very little.  They would fight another battle fairly soon in Pennsylvania then another one and another until they lost.  European recognition wasn't going to happen after 1862 and possibly ever.  Saratoga brought French support because it totally destroyed a British army.  Battles of annihilation didn't happen much in the US Civil war.

Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate.  God knows why.  I guess they just like being wrong up there.

[viper37]

Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate.  God knows why.

The idea of independance from central government.  See, I am God, since I know why.

Nevertheless, only a few hundred people from Canada served in the South, most fought for the Union.

[Eddie Teach]

Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate.  God knows why.

The idea of independance from central government.  See, I am God, since I know why.

He didn't say God was the only one who knew. 

[Razgovory]

Interestingly the Francophone populace was pro-confederate.  God knows why.

The idea of independance from central government.  See, I am God, since I know why.

Nevertheless, only a few hundred people from Canada served in the South, most fought for the Union.

Yet the idea was not appealing in 1775.

[Razgovory]

Well the number seemed high to me.  I mean, that's a lot of people who left their country to fight for cause not their own, especially in a country that doesn't have a lot of people in it to begin with.  There was a lot of talk about the British possibly recognizing the Confederacy, but if so many Canadians felt so strongly about the issue that wouldn't seem wise.  Wiki also said the guy who wrote what would be the Canadian national anthem fought joined the Union army.

There were at least a couple of thousand British volunteers who fought for the Union.

In terms of Britain the Civil War is I think an interesting example of the move between two eras. The elite, generally speaking, supported recognising the Confederacy. Our PM at the time was Lord Palmerston who was probably the most amoral, cynical, foreign policy led PM we've ever had (and wonderful for it) was fine with British shipbuilders and traders trying to make as much as they could out of either side. But he was mainly concerned with Europe, if it was to the UK's advantage to recognise the CSA he would've pushed for it (and there were a couple of times it came close).

But at the same time the emerging middle and working class were staunchly pro-Union. There's the famous example of cotton workers meeting in Free Trade Hall in the middle of the war and despite their economic conditions still deteriorating they passed a motion to send a letter to Lincoln praising him and the Union for their efforts to end slavery. He replied with a very gracious letter and was a bit of a hero to the middle and working class in the new industrial north.

The politics of the Civil War here are at the real cusp of the old Whig-ish politics, like Palmerston, and the start of new popular democracy. It's just between the founding of the Liberal Party and Disraeli's huge Reform Act.

This was when there was a lot of agitation for Universal manhood suffrage, right?  I can't help but think that a move to reconignize the confederacy by the government (which would likely lead to war), would be a political disaster for the British empire.

[Sheilbh]

This was when there was a lot of agitation for Universal manhood suffrage, right?  I can't help but think that a move to reconignize the confederacy by the government (which would likely lead to war), would be a political disaster for the British empire.

It was after that really. Chartism's the great movement for universal suffrage and it's petered out by the 1850s. But you've got John Bright agitating within Parliament. Gladstone's becoming 'the People's William' and on the tour to Newcastle where he famously said Jefferson Davis had 'made a nation' he also said he saw no principled reason to oppose universal suffrage for working men.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Britain is a good example in support of my belief in a restrictive democracy, greatest country in the world with a limited franchise, embarrassment with a full franchise.

[viper37]

Yet the idea was not appealing in 1775.

It was to those who fought alongside the Americans who tried to take Quebec.

But to most, no, it wasn't.  Something to do with the people claiming all French should be deported and Catholics were devils who shouldn't be allowed to practice their religion a few years earlier.
Lots of things changes in 100 years.