This is something important to me of course. I had a friend of mine locally nearly killed by a player in a football game he was officiating.
But this goes beyond physical violence. There is, IMO, a culture around sports and officials that results in these kinds of things. A culture that doesn't just tolerate treating officials like shit, but actually glorifies it. When Coach K goes off on an official, it makes SportsCenter, and often with just a fig leaf of disapproval. And even to the extent that coaches actions are seen in a negative light, it is usually not because it is just a shitty, childish, and unsporting way to act, but because their actions might hurt the team - rarely is it ever put in what is, IMO, the proper context of "This is a shitty way for a human being to act, period"
Anyway, I shared this on FB with some commentary of my own, but I thought I would share it here as well, and see what people think.
QuoteIt will happen again,' says sports official on violent death of soccer referee
http://www.naso.org/go/pressreleases/017_Press_Release.html (http://www.naso.org/go/pressreleases/017_Press_Release.html)
So what can be done?
Clearly Coach K must be banned for life.
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2014, 11:50:55 AM
But this goes beyond physical violence. There is, IMO, a culture around sports and officials that results in these kinds of things. A culture that doesn't just tolerate treating officials like shit, but actually glorifies it.
I agree. Having been a player and a coach I have seen it first hand at every level. Even when I was coaching little league and, sadly, on a number of occasions, I had to remind opposing coaches that it was improper to go off on a 14 year kid who was umping the game.
I see a shift though in a new generation of coaches - at least the younger ones who have coached my boys. There seems to be a new attitude of respect and restraint so that when a call is made that they disagree with they will ask for a clarification rather than going on a rant. The coach who's team won the Provincial title this year was a model of this style of interaction with the refs. But sadly these coaches are very much in the minority. There is definitely a culture amongst coaches that being hard on the refs is the sign of a good coach. And of course fans being what they are play off what the coach does by several magnitudes. That is not to say that refs dont make bad calls. Of course they do. They are not perfect but more often than not they get it right and on reflection what one thinks initially was a bad call often turns out to either have been correct or at least too close to make a good case they got it wrong (charging/blocking is a good example of where that often occurs). One of the best basketball refs I ever had ref one of my games made this point well to me during a game when I complained to him that the other guy had thrown an elbow at me and the foul was called on me. He said, "I believe you. But I didnt see it so I can't call it. I will look for it next time. But you have to admit you did foul him and that is what I saw." He was absolutely right.
From a player's perspective I have observed that the way coaches treat refs is generally a reflection of the way they treat their players. I wouldnt want my boys being coached by someone who mistreats refs because chances are that coach will also have the same attitude toward their players. And maybe that is the root of the problem. Coaches are taught the xs and os of the game, fewer learn how to coach the fundamentals and even fewer learn good communication and motivation skills. But if they can play to the crowd and abuse the refs all is good in the eyes of the fans (and too often the parents of the players) who will readily blame a ref for a bad outcome but will rarely think about what really mattered - how the game was played.
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
So what can be done?
Plenty CAN be done.
Start holding coaches and players accountable for their actions.
An Athletic Director, for example, is a coaches boss, are they not?
If a coach acts like an ass, suspend him without pay. Send a message about what is and is not tolerated.
There is plenty that CAN be done, but likely won't be - because fundamentally, it is a matter of cultural priorities, and I am not sure that our culture values care enough about abstract concepts like "sportsmanship" when it runs up against the value we place on winning.
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
So what can be done?
Plenty CAN be done.
Start holding coaches and players accountable for their actions.
An Athletic Director, for example, is a coaches boss, are they not?
If a coach acts like an ass, suspend him without pay. Send a message about what is and is not tolerated.
There is plenty that CAN be done, but likely won't be - because fundamentally, it is a matter of cultural priorities, and I am not sure that our culture values care enough about abstract concepts like "sportsmanship" when it runs up against the value we place on winning.
What if NASO refused to do games with teams that let their coaches and players act up? "Don't do that! Same time next week?" doesn't really suggest non-acceptance.
Goddamned Coach K has blood on his hands.
Fines. Lots of them.
Three strikes, and you're banned from the touchline.
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
So what can be done?
Plenty CAN be done.
Start holding coaches and players accountable for their actions.
An Athletic Director, for example, is a coaches boss, are they not?
If a coach acts like an ass, suspend him without pay. Send a message about what is and is not tolerated.
There is plenty that CAN be done, but likely won't be - because fundamentally, it is a matter of cultural priorities, and I am not sure that our culture values care enough about abstract concepts like "sportsmanship" when it runs up against the value we place on winning.
People spend years getting ready for events. They often tolerate lots of unpleasant things because in fact winning is important. Are coaches just to let an official wrongly deny his players the opportunities they deserve because it might hurt the official's feelings?
If a player makes decisions that adversely effect his team's chance of winning, I assume that Coach K will chew his ass out. Why should an official be different?
Killing people obviously crosses the line.
The same way you can't call a policeman an asshole, but you can call your friends whatever the fuck you like.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 03, 2014, 05:08:29 PM
If a player makes decisions that adversely effect his team's chance of winning, I assume that Coach K will chew his ass out. Why should an official be different?
The difference is that the players are answerable to the coach for their performance. The referee is not.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 03, 2014, 05:08:29 PM
If a player makes decisions that adversely effect his team's chance of winning, I assume that Coach K will chew his ass out. Why should an official be different?
Yeah, that is exactly the problem I referred to in my post.
I mean, if we are talking about American football, a player puts so much into getting onto the field, and most will play so few games in their careers, and apparently half will die at 40 from brain damage or something, I don't see what is wrong with a coach yelling at an official who is pissing down the backs of his boys.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 03, 2014, 06:24:36 PM
I mean, if we are talking about American football, a player puts so much into getting onto the field, and most will play so few games in their careers, and apparently half will die at 40 from brain damage or something, I don't see what is wrong with a coach yelling at an official who is pissing down the backs of his boys.
And
that is what is wrong. If killing the ref is merely an unacceptable version of the behavior you so strongly support, then whether the ref should be killed or only harassed is only a matter of taste and perception.
The ref's word is law. There may be reasons for a coach to talk to the refs, respectfully, but any Coach K moments should result in expulsion and suspension without pay.
QuoteFrom a player's perspective I have observed that the way coaches treat refs is generally a reflection of the way they treat their players. I wouldnt want my boys being coached by someone who mistreats refs because chances are that coach will also have the same attitude toward their players. And maybe that is the root of the problem. Coaches are taught the xs and os of the game, fewer learn how to coach the fundamentals and even fewer learn good communication and motivation skills. But if they can play to the crowd and abuse the refs all is good in the eyes of the fans (and too often the parents of the players) who will readily blame a ref for a bad outcome but will rarely think about what really mattered - how the game was played.
The bolded part from my post is for you Alfred.
If you think refs "piss down the backs" of players you have a messed up view of sports - which is pretty much the point Berkut was making.
Quote from: Liep on July 03, 2014, 05:15:20 PM
The same way you can't call a policeman an asshole, but you can call your friends whatever the fuck you like.
In Mississippi, you can call our cops assholes and not be charged. Cause we're regressive that way. Cops are expected to be cursed at in the performance of their duties, and take it like a man.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 03, 2014, 06:24:36 PM
I don't see what is wrong with a coach yelling at an official who is pissing down the backs of his boys.
For some reason this made me think of this ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nnjNYrUK8E&feature=kp
Anyway if you have a problem with the way a game is officiated take it up with the conference office. That is the civilized way to do things.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 03, 2014, 05:08:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
So what can be done?
Plenty CAN be done.
Start holding coaches and players accountable for their actions.
An Athletic Director, for example, is a coaches boss, are they not?
If a coach acts like an ass, suspend him without pay. Send a message about what is and is not tolerated.
There is plenty that CAN be done, but likely won't be - because fundamentally, it is a matter of cultural priorities, and I am not sure that our culture values care enough about abstract concepts like "sportsmanship" when it runs up against the value we place on winning.
People spend years getting ready for events.
Of course - and the officials are no exception.
Quote
They often tolerate lots of unpleasant things because in fact winning is important.
Indeed - winning is important. It is important to the players, to the fans, to the coaches, to the school adminstrators.
It is important to everyone...except the officials. They are the only people involved for whom who wins is NOT important. And hence the only people involved for whom objectivity IS important, and hence the only people involved who get to rule on the rules.
The flip side to that coin is that since they are the only people who are objective, everyone else involved is NOTobjective...hence why should their opinion about the job of the people who ARE objective be relevant to anyone? What gives the coach or players the right to treat them like shit because a call did not go their way?
Winning is important to all the people participating. But it isn't the most important thing, and treating people with respect and sportsmanship is and should be more important.
Quote
Are coaches just to let an official wrongly deny his players the opportunities they deserve because it might hurt the official's feelings?
Coaches have almost no ability to judge whether an official is doing such a thing though. The vast, vast, VAST majority of the time a coach is acting like an ass towards an official, they are wrong.
And this has nothing to do with the officials feelings, it has to do with the values and atmosphere such behavior creates, and the message it sends.
The simple fact of the matter is that the coach has not ability, by definition, to objectively evaluate whether an official is doing a good job or not. They lack the training, the objectivity, and most importantly, the lack the attention - they are not paying attention to the officials, they are paying attention to their team.
Quote
If a player makes decisions that adversely effect his team's chance of winning, I assume that Coach K will chew his ass out. Why should an official be different?
Because an officials is not answerable to the coach, and a coach chewing out one of his players in an effort to adjust their play isn't an attack on the integrity of the game.
A ocach trying to intimidate an official into making the calls he wants the official to make is both unethical in that it is an attempt to unfairly influence the game, and it is immoral in that it shows a lack of sportsmanship, respect, and understanding of fair play.
Quote
Killing people obviously crosses the line.
But verbally assaulting them in a manner that would NEVER be tolerated in any other context is not crossing a line?
I think your entire post does a better job of probing my basic point than I ever could hope.
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2014, 01:40:46 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 03, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 03, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
So what can be done?
Plenty CAN be done.
Start holding coaches and players accountable for their actions.
An Athletic Director, for example, is a coaches boss, are they not?
If a coach acts like an ass, suspend him without pay. Send a message about what is and is not tolerated.
There is plenty that CAN be done, but likely won't be - because fundamentally, it is a matter of cultural priorities, and I am not sure that our culture values care enough about abstract concepts like "sportsmanship" when it runs up against the value we place on winning.
What if NASO refused to do games with teams that let their coaches and players act up? "Don't do that! Same time next week?" doesn't really suggest non-acceptance.
Sadly that simply isn't a realistic option, unless the behavior is just totally out of line.
We do not have anything like that kind of power.
That power has to come from the people that the coaches are answerable to, and it isn't the officials.
Berkut, players and coaches get verbal abuse thrown at them all the time, by opposing fans. Would you like to see fans who yell at players (or at refs) ejected from games?
Would you like to see all sports conducted on the same lines as golf, or say tennis?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2014, 08:42:43 PM
Berkut, players and coaches get verbal abuse thrown at them all the time, by opposing fans. Would you like to see fans who yell at players (or at refs) ejected from games?
Would you like to see all sports conducted on the same lines as golf, or say tennis?
I actually mostly give fans a pass - I figure getting all worked up at officials is part of the fun, within reason.
Plus, as an official, it is easy for me to ignore the fans. I don't really care what they say, as long as they don't say something that is going to incite a problem in the game.
I've only ever kicked a fan out of a game twice in my career. One kid he tried to get into a fight with one of the players on the court, and a mother who told her son to hit another player.
And no, I don't think sports need to be conducted as if we were at a tea party. Some getting on the officials is part of the game, and I don't mind a coach going off on me in a reasonable manner, within limits.
But that isn't what I am talking about - I am talking about coaches, players, fans who truly do operate under the idea that the official is out to get them, or "pissing down the backs of their players" such that it is reasonable to take a personal and insulting tone to the interaction.
I once had a coach go ballistic on me because I threw his player out of a game for spitting on another player.
I've had a coach at a high school game tell me I would never work another one of his school's game because I was "taking the emotion out of the game". My crime? I ejected his player for standing over an opposing player who was just badly injured in a play and "slow-clapping" and talking trash while the kid screamed in agony. Which of course resulted in another player going after him.
In both of these examples (and I can provide many more) the coach decided that *I* was the problem - that the "bad thing" that had happened was *my* behavior. Neither of them even considered whether the actions of their players was the problem, and hence the message sent to their players was that the official was the bad actor, not themselves.
In the second example above, that coach is still coaching at that school, and I've never been drawn there again, and never will be as long as he is the coach. He has that power.
Now, of course there are plenty of coaches, most coaches in fact, who would never ever tolerate that kind of bullshit from their players. Most coaches go off on their players when they do something stupid like that...but of course, the types of coaches who don't tolerate players acting that way also don't have players who act that way. It is no coincidence that the same programs tend to have more problem players, and they tend to be the ones with problem coaches.
Well yeah part of the coach's job is to 'help' the officials get the call right next time ;)
I really hate when coaches totally lose their cool though or start calling out officiating in the post game press conference. Just pathetic lack of professionalism from grown men.
Its soccer.
Who cares?
Quote from: Valmy on July 03, 2014, 08:23:26 PM
Anyway if you have a problem with the way a game is officiated take it up with the conference office. That is the civilized way to do things.
I have written the conference office before (the ACC). The didn't reply to me. I doubt they took my comments seriously and I never got a reply back.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 04, 2014, 07:35:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 03, 2014, 08:23:26 PM
Anyway if you have a problem with the way a game is officiated take it up with the conference office. That is the civilized way to do things.
I have written the conference office before (the ACC). The didn't reply to me. I doubt they took my comments seriously and I never got a reply back.
I meant the coaches :lol:
Quote from: Siege on July 04, 2014, 04:52:02 PM
Its soccer.
Who cares?
Have you read the thread? We barely mention soccer.
Quote from: Scipio on July 03, 2014, 07:37:19 PM
Quote from: Liep on July 03, 2014, 05:15:20 PM
The same way you can't call a policeman an asshole, but you can call your friends whatever the fuck you like.
In Mississippi, you can call our cops assholes and not be charged. Cause we're regressive that way. Cops are expected to be cursed at in the performance of their duties, and take it like a man.
I bet you say it loud enough and you get slapped with a disorderly conduct charge.
Quote from: Valmy on July 04, 2014, 07:41:08 PM
Quote from: Siege on July 04, 2014, 04:52:02 PM
Its soccer.
Who cares?
Have you read the thread? We barely mention soccer.
It's Israel.
Who cares?