Poll
Question:
Read the freaking post
Option 1: Yes
votes: 2
Option 2: No
votes: 8
I recall reading an article a little while ago. It spoke of some people in Berwick muttering about leaving England to join Scotland (assuming the Scots don't shoot themselves in the head with this independence thing).
Their reasoning wasn't based on any nationalist feeling, most people in Berwick pretty strongly see themselves as English, but simply that Scots get lots of freebies- free medicine, free university, etc... and Scotland gets a lot of money thrown at it by the government that north east England doesn't get.
They figure that since nationalism is stupid and they would lose nothing by joining Scotland it is purely logical to do so and get the improved government services.
So.
My question.
Assume a similar situation.
You live in a border town of your country (a little bit of a different situation since it would have to be a true border outside of the UK).
Beyond a shadow of a doubt life would be significantly better (lets say...$1200 a year or so better off?) for you , your family and all your neighbours if your town left your country to join your neighbour.
And let's assume that you know for certain that this isn't a short term thing, it will always be true.
You can keep the right to travel, work and live in your current country but you won't be a citizen.
Your town holds a referendum of logic vs. nationalism.
Would you vote to leave?
Yeah independent Scotland will have lots of free money for continued lavish welfare payments. They would love some freeloaders joining them. :lol:
And stop using the term "free". It is not. It is free for the shmuck receiving it, but somebody else is paying for it. It is as free as your mobile phone once a thug strongarms it out of your hand.
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2014, 04:47:10 AM
And stop using the term "free". It is not. It is free for the shmuck receiving it, but somebody else is paying for it. It is as free as your mobile phone once a thug strongarms it out of your hand.
The thug is risking gaol, so not as free in that scenario.
If I were that dissatisfied with my lot I'd have upped sticks and moved to Edinburgh or London years ago rather than expecting a government - any government - to solve my problems.
Quote from: Brazen on June 24, 2014, 04:59:40 AM
rather than expecting a government - any government - to solve my problems.
You fail at modern politics. :(
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2014, 04:47:10 AM
Yeah independent Scotland will have lots of free money for continued lavish welfare payments. They would love some freeloaders joining them. :lol:
And stop using the term "free". It is not. It is free for the shmuck receiving it, but somebody else is paying for it. It is as free as your mobile phone once a thug strongarms it out of your hand.
The Scots pay the same taxes as the English. The government gives them more. Ergo compared to the English the Scots get things for free.
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2014, 05:17:30 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2014, 04:47:10 AM
Yeah independent Scotland will have lots of free money for continued lavish welfare payments. They would love some freeloaders joining them. :lol:
And stop using the term "free". It is not. It is free for the shmuck receiving it, but somebody else is paying for it. It is as free as your mobile phone once a thug strongarms it out of your hand.
The Scots pay the same taxes as the English. The government gives them more. Ergo compared to the English the Scots get things for free.
No. Some of the Scots get stuff which was taken from other Scots.
Tyr, Tamas
Right now Scots get money from England. After independence Scots will have to take the money from other scots.
So my choice is to be Mexican or Canadian? That doesn't seem like a good deal. Tyr seems to be phrasing this in a way of "If you could have your cake and eat it too, would you do it?".
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2014, 05:32:34 AM
No. Some of the Scots get stuff which was taken from other Scots.
Not so much, the taxes go into a central pool and some is then given back to Scotland.
And Scottish people get more than English people.
The taxes won't go into a central pool after independence.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 24, 2014, 07:01:21 AM
The taxes won't go into a central pool after independence.
Unlikely to happen and irrelevant to the question at hand.
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2014, 07:02:26 AM
Unlikely to happen and irrelevant to the question at hand.
How's that? Currently the high incomes generated by the City get taxed by the UK government then distributed throughout, you claim more generously in Scotland than in England. If Scotland votes for independence this source of tax revenue will no longer be available to distibute to Scottish citizens.
How is that no relevant to the question at hand?
I misread; you're talking about Scotland *not* going independent.
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2014, 06:35:13 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 24, 2014, 05:32:34 AM
No. Some of the Scots get stuff which was taken from other Scots.
Not so much, the taxes go into a central pool and some is then given back to Scotland.
And Scottish people get more than English people.
Ok, so some Scots are receiving stuff which was taken from other Brits. Not a big difference in principles. :P
1200 a year?
After having read Squeeze's OP again, my answer is: I doubt the central government, which is allegedly more generous to people living on one side of an internal border than the other, would recognize the change.
Quote from: garbon on June 24, 2014, 07:47:45 AM
1200 a year?
Random number pulled out of my arse.
Seemed like a nice enough number to make most people materially better off but not enough to make it a definite decision.
I sort of have that ability. I can move just outside of Austin and get Austin goodies without paying Austin taxes. But I don't because my identity is tied to being an Austinite and not some freeloading Cedar Park (or Pflugerville or Round Rock or whatever) piece of crap.
Quote from: Tyr on June 24, 2014, 08:07:46 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 24, 2014, 07:47:45 AM
1200 a year?
Random number pulled out of my arse.
Seemed like a nice enough number to make most people materially better off but not enough to make it a definite decision.
Then no. Though really it would actually have to be something fairly significant to have me vote to be part of another polity.
£1200 a year isn't significant, but that's a very minor point. I will just read significant without any specific number.
I probably wouldn't vote yes. Secession tends to bring out the kooks and I'd rather not side with them. But if my significantly better economy is due to lower taxes then maybe I'd vote yes, as a fuck you to Socialism.
We have a town right on the Alberta-Saskatchewan border - Lloydminster. The town is split neatly in two by the border. It made prosecuting there slightly more complicated because we had to make sure which side of town the offence happened in.
Anyways, from what I understand people there prefer to live on the Saskatchewan side of the border because they can take advantage of cheap government mandated car insurance, while most new businesses set themselves up on the Alberta side in order to take advantage of lower tax rates.
Which sort of makes one wonder why the residents of Berwick just don't move across the border if they're so motivated by free money.
I stayed in a B&B in Berwick-upon-Tweed on our way back from our honeymoon in Scotland. Very nice little town with some well preserved medeival walls (back from when England and Scotland would frequently fight over the town).
The problem with Scotland is that it is full of Scots.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 24, 2014, 04:00:52 PM
The problem with Scotland is that it is full of Scots.
You want it to be Scot free?
Scrotum: Scot in Latin.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 24, 2014, 11:39:44 AM
Which sort of makes one wonder why the residents of Berwick just don't move across the border if they're so motivated by free money.
My only known fact about Berwick: Berwick Rangers plays in the Scottish League rather than the English League.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 24, 2014, 11:39:44 AM
Which sort of makes one wonder why the residents of Berwick just don't move across the border if they're so motivated by free money.
Apparently they are. Houses just over the border are in high demand.