QuoteWhy Napoleon's Still a Problem in France
By Brian Eads / May 8, 2014 2:59 PM EDT
5.9_PG0419_Napoleon_01
The French cannot decide whether Bonaparte is a hero or villain Franck Fife/AFP/Getty
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Filed Under: World, France
Under a clear blue sky, the Emperor Napoleon, wearing his trademark black felt bicorne hat, green tunic, white breeches and riding boots, emerges at the top of a stone staircase and, with a steady gaze and a salute, acknowledges the thousands assembled in the cobbled courtyard below.
Behind him are his generals, clad in gaudy uniforms and plumed hats, with swords strapped to their waists. Stood at attention or on horseback in the courtyard are several hundred Imperial Guardsmen in their bearskin shakos, many sporting a gold earring, a sign of their elite status.
The veterans of the Old Guard were Napoleon's favorite troops. He nicknamed them "Les Grognards"—the grumblers—because they were bold enough to complain in front of him. Beyond them, crowding the square and the neighboring streets, stand around 40,000 ordinary French citizens.
The stocky Corsican has ruled France for 15 years, the last 10 as "Emperor of the French," and his armies have conquered much of Europe. Now, after defeat on the battlefield by a coalition of rival nations, the occupation of Paris and his abdication, Napoleon is about to deliver an emotional farewell to those who have remained loyal.
The setting is the main courtyard of the magnificent château of Fontainebleau, one hour south of Paris. The date is April 20, 2014.
In real life, Napoleon is Franck Samson, a French lawyer who, with the aid of a black wig, bears a striking resemblance to Bonaparte and has played the part for a decade. Like Samson, all the generals, the Imperial Guard, other regiments and the camp followers in period costume, 500 in all, are unpaid enthusiasts who spend thousands of euros on their sumptuous outfits.
As "Napoleon Bonaparte" slowly descends the sweeping staircase, he is met by cries of "Vive l'Empereur! Vive l'Empereur!"
"With men like you, our cause is not lost," the faux Napoleon tells his latter-day followers. By stepping down and going into exile on the tiny Mediterranean island of Elba, he is sacrificing his own interests for the interests of France, he says. "Farewell, my children. I want to press all of you to my heart."
But "Vive l'Empereur!" is not a cry that echoes throughout France much anymore. Not everyone is a fan, then or now. In the spring of 1814, as Napoleon traveled through southern France en route to exile, he was jeered by onlookers. His lust for power had left more than 1 million French dead. People were weary of war.
The following year, like the Terminator, Napoleon was back. But only for a brief 100 days before his final defeat at Waterloo and a second exile, on Saint Helena, a speck of land in the South Atlantic, where he died.
Two hundred years on, the French still cannot agree on whether Napoleon was a hero or a villain.
"The divide is generally down political party lines," says professor Peter Hicks, a British historian with the Napoléon Foundation in Paris. "On the left, there's the 'black legend' of Bonaparte as an ogre. On the right, there is the 'golden legend' of a strong leader who created durable institutions."
French politicians and institutions in particular appear nervous about marking the 200th anniversary of Napoleon's exile. The cost of the Fontainebleau "farewell" and scores of related events over three weekends was shouldered not by the central government in Paris but by the local château, a historic monument and UNESCO World Heritage site, and the town of Fontainebleau.
While the 200th anniversary of the French Revolution that toppled the monarchy and delivered thousands to death by guillotine was officially celebrated in 1989, Napoleonic anniversaries are neither officially marked nor celebrated. For example, a decade ago, the president and prime minister—at the time, Jacques Chirac and Dominque de Villepin—boycotted a ceremony marking the 200th anniversary of the battle of Austerlitz, Napoleon's greatest military victory.
"It's almost as if Napoleon Bonaparte is not part of the national story," Hicks tells Newsweek.
In 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
On the streets of Paris, there are just two statues of Napoleon. One stands beneath the clock tower at Les Invalides (a military hospital), the other atop a column in the Place Vendôme. Napoleon's red marble tomb, in a crypt under the Invalides dome, is magnificent, perhaps because his remains were interred there during France's Second Empire, when his nephew, Napoleon III, was on the throne.
There are no squares, nor places, nor boulevards named for Napoleon and only one narrow street, the rue Bonaparte, running from the Luxembourg Gardens to the River Seine. And, that, too, is thanks to Napoleon III.
"He is not given enough respect," Samson, the Napoleon look-alike, tells Newsweek. "Napoleon rebuilt France. On balance, his legacy is positive. But the Republic dislikes what is not Republican."
Jacques-Olivier Boudon, a history professor at Paris-Sorbonne University and president of the Napoléon Institute, explained that "French public opinion remains deeply divided over Napoleon, with, on the one hand, those who admire the great man, the conqueror, the military leader and, on the other, those who see him as a bloodthirsty tyrant, the gravedigger of the revolution. Politicians in France rarely refer to Napoleon for fear of being accused of authoritarian temptations, or not being good Republicans."
The row was enlivened in March when Lionel Jospin, the Socialist former prime minister, published The Napoleonic Evil, which topped the best-seller lists and triggered a stormy debate. "I am intrigued by the gap between the glory of Napoleon and the actual results he delivered in France and Europe," Jospin tells Newsweek.
He says Napoleon was "an obvious failure"—bad for France and the rest of Europe. When he was shown the door, France was isolated, beaten, occupied, dominated, hated and smaller than before. What's more, Napoleon smothered the forces of emancipation awakened by the French and American revolutions and enabled the survival and restoration of monarchies.
Some of the legacies with which Napoleon is credited, including the Civil Code, the comprehensive legal system replacing a hodgepodge of feudal laws, were proposed during the revolution, Jospin argues, though he acknowledges that Napoleon actually delivered them.
"He guaranteed some principles of the revolution and, at the same time, changed its course, finished it and betrayed it," Jospin tells Newsweek. For instance, Napoleon reintroduced slavery in French colonies, revived a system that allowed the rich to dodge conscription in the military and did nothing to advance gender equality.
He also crowned himself emperor, but the genuine kings who surrounded him were not convinced. Always a warrior first, he tried to represent himself as a Caesar, and he wears a Roman toga on the bas-reliefs in his tomb. His coronation crown, a laurel wreath made of gold, sent the same message. His icon, the eagle, was also borrowed from Rome.
But Caesar's legitimacy depended on military victories. Ultimately, Napoleon suffered too many defeats.
Professor Chris Clark, a Cambridge University historian, goes even further than Jospin. "Napoleon was not a French patriot—he was first a Corsican and later an imperial figure, a journey in which he bypassed any deep affiliation with the French nation," Clark tells Newsweek. "His relationship with the French Revolution is deeply ambivalent. Did he stabilize it or shut it down? He seems to have done both. He rejected democracy, he suffocated the representative dimension of politics, and he created a culture of courtly display."
A month before crowning himself emperor, Napoleon sought approval for establishing an empire from the French in a plebiscite; 3,572,329 voted in favor, 2,567 against. If that landslide resembles an election in North Korea, well, this was no secret ballot. Each "yes" or "no" was recorded, along with the name and address of the voter. Evidently, an overwhelming majority knew which side their baguette was buttered on.
His extravagant coronation in Notre Dame in December 1804 cost 8.5 million francs, or $8.5 million in today's money. He made his brothers, sisters and stepchildren kings, queens, princes and princesses and created a Napoleonic aristocracy numbering 3,500. By any measure, it was a bizarre progression for someone often described as "a child of the Revolution."
Napoleon enthusiasts tell a different story. David Chanteranne, editor of a magazine published by Napoléonic Memory, France's oldest and largest Napoleonic association, cites some of Napoleon's achievements: the Civil Code, the Council of State, the Bank of France, the National Audit office, a centralized and coherent administrative system, lycées, universities, centers of advanced learning known as école normal, chambers of commerce, the metric system and freedom of religion.
"These were ambitions unachieved during the chaos of the revolution," Chanteranne tells Newsweek. "He was a savior of France. If there had been no Napoleon, the Republic would not have survived."
As it is, these institutions continue to function and underpin French society. Indeed, many were copied in countries conquered by Napoleon, such as Italy, Germany and Poland, and laid the foundations for the modern state.
Hundreds of groups worldwide study, discuss and venerate Napoleon. Frederic Stevens/Getty
France's foremost Napoleonic scholar, Jean Tulard, agrees that Bonaparte was the architect of modern France. "And I would say also pâtissier [a cake and pastry maker] because of the administrative millefeuille that we inherited." (Oddly enough, in North America the multilayered mille-feuille cake is called "a napoleon.")
If Napoleon had not crushed a Royalist rebellion and seized power in 1799, the French monarchy and feudalism would have returned, Tulard says. "Like Cincinnatus in ancient Rome, Napoleon wanted a dictatorship of public salvation. He gets all the power, and, when the project is finished, he returns to his plough."
In the event, the old order was never restored in France. When Louis XVIII became emperor in 1814, he served as a constitutional monarch.
Stéphane Guégan, curator of the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, which, among other First Empire artworks, houses a plaster model of Napoleon dressed as a Roman emperor astride a horse, describes France's fascination with him as "a national illness."
"The people who met him were fascinated by his charm. And today, even the most hostile to Napoleon also face this charm. So there is a difficulty to apprehend the duality of this character. He was born from the revolution, he extended and finished it, and after 1804 he turns into a despot, a dictator," Guégan tells Newsweek.
In France, Guégan says, there is a kind of nostalgia, not for dictatorship but for strong leaders. "Our age is suffering a lack of imagination and political utopia," he says.
What's more, the French are not the only ones fascinated by Napoleon. Hundreds of groups worldwide study, discuss and venerate him; stage re-enactments of his battles in costume; throw lavish balls; and stage events.
J. David Markham, a North American scholar and president of the International Napoleonic Society, says the French fascination with Napoleon is perfectly reasonable. "The whole world is fascinated. More books have been written about him than anyone in history," Markham tells Newsweek.
As prices of Napoleonic memorabilia continue to rise at auctions in Europe and North America, a distinct shortage of items for sale has emerged. A lock of Napoleon's hair, a ring and other relics were recently stolen from a museum in Melbourne, Australia. At an auction in France, the soiled nightshirt in which he died was withdrawn after descendants of the original owners became afraid it would be sold to a foreigner and leave France. They won a court injunction preventing its sale.
Will the fascination with Napoleon continue for another 200 years? In France, at least, enthusiasm looks set to diminish. Napoleon and his exploits are scarcely mentioned in French schools anymore.
In the past, history was the study of great men and women. Today the focus of teaching is on trends, issues and movements. "France in 1800 is no longer about Louis XVI and Napoleon Bonaparte. It's about the industrial revolution," says Chanteranne. "Man does not make history. History makes men."
My favourite thing about that piece is the phrase 'administrative millefeuille' which I love.
But it got me thinking it does seem odd, looking back, that there's been all of these 200th anniversaries for France and I can't think of a single event to commemorate them - did they participate in the 'red v blue' battle of Trafalgar? I know they were part of the flotilla. It seems really striking and it got me thinking more about how things are officially, collectively remembered.
There's been arguments in the UK over how we should remember the 100th anniversary of the First World War. Some, like the Education Secretary, have used it to push what's now orthodoxy among historical writers - that the war was justified, the generals did their best and ultimately adapted relatively well. But it goes counter to popular memory which is that the war was a waste of lions led by donkeys, so that's been resisted and Michael Gove accused of a sort-of historical jingoism.
But then I've a friend in Bosnia who said the authorities there were baffled over how to commemorate it because globally it's probably the most consequential event ever in Sarajevo's history but, aside from the local difficulties (Princip being a Serb nationalist), it wasn't terribly important to Sarajevo. I've visited a couple of times and it's striking that the plaque where Franz Ferdinand was shot is so plain and non-descript. But there's the war which is so difficult to remember there because it's still so politically contentious.
It also made me think of the 100th anniversary of the Irish famine was largely ignored. De Valera basically forced a group of historians to write a book on it (a collection of essays which, as was the view at the time, largely exonerated Whitehall), but that was about it. Until the 150th anniversary the largest memorials were those built by the diaspora.
So I don't know where to go with this except that it seems we have a lot of difficult centenaries on the way, so I was wondering what other difficult or still contentious big events people know about. Are there any that just don't really get marked? How's the civil war been commemorated on big anniversaries in the US? Or how countries like Germany and France will mark WW1? Or Russia the Revolution?
Edit: How about Vietnam? I remember reading a book about the memorial on the Mall, which I'd love to see, but are there any discussions of how to mark that?
I can't think why anyone sensible would want to commemorate the civil war.
The 150th anniversary of Gettysburg was huge. They had 30,000 reenactors IIRC.
The First Empire. :wub:
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 20, 2014, 09:36:49 PM
The First Empire. :wub:
I know! They should rename Champs Elysees at least <_<
:thumbsdown: Needs more Davout.
QuoteIn 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
Shockingly, the French public is as stupid as the American and British ones.
QuoteFrance's foremost Napoleonic scholar, Jean Tulard
is also very pro-Napoleon so the author of the article should only complain, and rightly so, about the ones such as Chirac (so-called conservative) and de Villepin who changed his tune on Napoléon after getting to power. He prefers well-paid early retirement ( 70 000 euros) to that I guess.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 10:31:18 PM
QuoteIn 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
Shockingly, the French public is as stupid as the American and British ones.
Shockingly, there are people on languish who can only think that people who disagree with them are "stupid." The Fifth Republic has lasted a lot longer and seen more changes for France than the First Empire did.
Interesting. I definitely know the wrong Frenchmen since up until I read this I thought that Napoleon was a national hero there, in spite of the reasons already forwarded by the article.
We don't have any politically loaded anniversary coming up in Spain. 2nd Republic one isn't due until 2031. No doubt we'll make a poor show of it with plenty of political bickering.
Russian Revolution and independence of Finland celebrations coming up in 2017. :contract:
Napoleon is both of those things. He is both a creator of laws and institutions and a bloody tyrant. To some extent this is true for alot of great political figures but everything seems more extreme in his case.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 10:31:18 PM
QuoteIn 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
Shockingly, the French public is as stupid as the American and British ones.
DeGaulle is the father of modern France for better or worse. Old France was discredited in WWII and the Colonial debacles afterwards. I think the French voted correctly there.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2014, 09:30:31 PM
The 150th anniversary of Gettysburg was huge. They had 30,000 reenactors IIRC.
Seriously? How bizarre. I hardly heard anything about it while the 125th back in 1988 was this BFD but actually had fewer than 30,000.
Disappointing. I was very relieved the 150th of the Civil War has largely past without big commemorations. Time to put that dragon to bed I think.
In Canada the commemoration of the war of 1812 turned out to be a top down effort by the government.
Outside of Quebec the main contraversial event in Canada would likely be the Red River Rebellion and the execution of Louis Real but that will not come up for several decades iirc.
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 10:48:09 AM
DeGaulle is the father of modern France for better or worse. Old France was discredited in WWII and the Colonial debacles afterwards. I think the French voted correctly there.
There wasn't a qualifier that it was "modern" French history. De Gaulle presided over a period of waning French power and had far less influence on world events than Napoleon or Louis XIV.
Maybe he's not as stupid a choice as Reagan, but it's still clearly a case of seriously overvaluing the present and recent past.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 21, 2014, 04:05:54 PM
There wasn't a qualifier that it was "modern" French history. De Gaulle presided over a period of waning French power and had far less influence on world events than Napoleon or Louis XIV.
Maybe he's not as stupid a choice as Reagan, but it's still clearly a case of seriously overvaluing the present and recent past.
The decline was already a done deal once DeGaulle took over, if anything he turned things around. France as a great power died at Suez, if it was not already dead when the Germans crossed the Meuse.
The question was the most important man in French history. I think a perfectly valid interpretation is which man had the largest impact on how France turned out today. That man could certainly be DeGaulle. Now which Frenchman had the largest impact on world history well then obviously DeGaulle would be a very poor choice.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 21, 2014, 04:05:54 PM
There wasn't a qualifier that it was "modern" French history. De Gaulle presided over a period of waning French power and had far less influence on world events than Napoleon or Louis XIV.
But that's just stripping all historical context out of it. Louis XIV had more influence because France was a world power, not because of he's Louis XIV.
De Gaulle's leadership came at a time (and partly in response to) France not being a world power. De Gaulle presided over a period of increasing French power and influence in relation to her immediate past and what is possible in the modern age.
It's like saying George Washington's a pathetic President because the US was at its most feeble during his Presidency and, by contrast, say Clinton or W Bush are the greatest. Or that Churchill was somehow less impressive than, say, Horace Walpole.
Quote from: Valmy on May 21, 2014, 04:12:59 PM
The question was the most important man in French history. I think a perfectly valid interpretation is which man had the largest impact on how France turned out today. That man could certainly be DeGaulle. Now which Frenchman had the largest impact on world history well then obviously DeGaulle would be a very poor choice.
That depends on how unique you think Napoleon was, and how important you consider modern Europe's transformation from a squabbling lot to a somewhat-unified power is.
There are arguments on both sides, but I don't think the answer is as cut-and-dried as you imply. Maybe I'm misreading your point, though.
We just commemorated the constitution. It banned Jews, Jesuits and monks from entering the kingdom.
Charles de Gaulle would get my vote, despite not being a fan, solely for surviving all the assassination attempts and setting up the Fifth Republic. Essentially, more useful than invading Russia, I'd say.
DeGaule did a pretty good job guiding post war France. I mean, it could have been much, much worse. There was a risk of civil war or dictatorship. And while DeGaule was fairly autocratic, he never became dictator of the country. Lesser men certainly would have.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 10:31:18 PM
QuoteIn 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
Shockingly, the French public is as stupid as the American and British ones.
The Fifth Republic has kept the peace for over 50 years. I cannot, and will not, subscribe to your interpretations of this event.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2014, 09:45:40 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 10:31:18 PM
QuoteIn 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
Shockingly, the French public is as stupid as the American and British ones.
The Fifth Republic has kept the peace for over 50 years. I cannot, and will not, subscribe to your interpretations of this event.
What if the measure used is the politicians they elect?
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2014, 10:23:27 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2014, 09:45:40 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 10:31:18 PM
QuoteIn 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
Shockingly, the French public is as stupid as the American and British ones.
The Fifth Republic has kept the peace for over 50 years. I cannot, and will not, subscribe to your interpretations of this event.
What if the measure used is the politicians they elect?
They seem about par for the course. Hollande seems pretty wretched granted.
Hitler made Germany what it is today. :)
Quote from: The Brain on May 22, 2014, 10:24:48 AM
Hitler made Germany what it is today. :)
Subservient to the Russian Slavs? I guess that is true :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2014, 10:24:09 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2014, 10:23:27 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2014, 09:45:40 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 20, 2014, 10:31:18 PM
QuoteIn 2010 an opinion poll in France asked who was the most important man in French history. Napoleon came second, behind General Charles de Gaulle, who led France from exile during the German occupation in World War II and served as a postwar president.
Shockingly, the French public is as stupid as the American and British ones.
The Fifth Republic has kept the peace for over 50 years. I cannot, and will not, subscribe to your interpretations of this event.
What if the measure used is the politicians they elect?
They seem about par for the course. Hollande seems pretty wretched granted.
By par for the course do you mean just as stupid as Americans and Brits?
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2014, 10:34:10 AM
By par for the course do you mean just as stupid as Americans and Brits?
Sort of. The regular sorts of people who get elected by democratic countries.
An argument could be made that Napoleon had greater impact on the development of Germany or even Britain, than France.
Germany i can see, Italy I can see, but how Britain?
Fuk.
I shall read thosd tomorrow
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2014, 10:34:51 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2014, 10:34:10 AM
By par for the course do you mean just as stupid as Americans and Brits?
Sort of. The regular sorts of people who get elected by democratic countries.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fquotes-lover.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F04%2FAll-we-have-to-decide-is-what-to-do-with-the-time-that-is-given-us1.jpg&hash=a7169e3545281639c862d9845d4ea39facb20008)
Nappy's bureaucratic reforms changed all of the occupied areas significantly. He seems to have been a great force for centralization and institutionalization. I was reminded when looking at the exhibit in Slovenia's national museum how much his stint of only several years transformed that country (creating Illyria and whatnot). That happened all over Europe then. Nappy was nationalizing things left and right, creating new kingdoms and centralizing governance everywhere he went.
Whether he was an enlightened reformer or a monster would depend on whether you think that was a good thing or not.
Personally, I think some of Europe's greatest historical strengths were lost for good after that. Their institutional diversity and utility as humanity's social skunkworks, etc. But the seeds were also planted that enabled the future framework making any kind of European unity possible at all. Still, what it cost can't really be quantified. Nobody can say what would have come of all the nations and institutions he denied the chance to evolve organically. At least in my mind, it was probably too high a price. Even before taking into account the lives lost.
As for France herself...the revolution was already hijacked and its ideals betrayed before he got there. I doubt the royalist cause would have been long-lived even if successful, so it's doubtful he saved France from backsliding into absolute monarchy either. Even if the kingdom were restored, it would likely have looked more like Britain's monarchy. I always sort of put him and Cromwell in the same category.
I think a lot of people in Europe at the time thought he was a republican hero who would save them from their monarchical masters, and were disillusioned when the cannon fire started falling on their cities instead. (Gary Oldman's Beethoven expresses this in Immortal Beloved, for example.) That false hope is maybe the source of the Nappy-betrayed-republicanism thing. It was more perception than reality. Maybe one cultivated by the French in hopes that they would be hailed as liberators, I don't know.
Maybe celebrating would be going too far.
Napoleon was one of history's great reactionaries.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 26, 2014, 04:15:06 PM
As for France herself...the revolution was already hijacked and its ideals betrayed before he got there. I doubt the royalist cause would have been long-lived even if successful, so it's doubtful he saved France from backsliding into absolute monarchy either. Even if the kingdom were restored, it would likely have looked more like Britain's monarchy. I always sort of put him and Cromwell in the same category.
I am not sure what you mean before he got there. He had been in France since he was a small child and he was certainly involved in the Revolution from day 1, he even supported the radicals. LOL at the Bourbons ever being able to rule like Britain's monarchy. That idea is ludicrous, having any limits on the monarchy at all was barely tolerable to them on ideological grounds. I think everything that happened from the restoration onwards bears witness to that. If the Bourbons had been those kinds of men, the Bourbon monarchy would be the figureheads of France to this day.
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:18:58 PM
Napoleon was one of history's great reactionaries.
Opportunists? Sure. Reactionary? Erm...don't see that.
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:18:58 PM
Napoleon was one of history's great reactionaries.
Opportunists? Sure. Reactionary? Erm...don't see that.
:huh: Recreating hereditary monarchy and nobility after one of the most celebrated republican revolts in history?
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 04:19:20 PMBourbons ever being able to rule like Britain's monarchy. That idea is ludicrous, having any limits on the monarchy at all was barely tolerable to them on ideological grounds.
Wasn't it for Charles as well? Remember the British crown didn't go from god-king to modern day figurehead in one generation either. And having no choice in the matter does tend to make a man revisit his convictions. Especially with an army on the doorstep to make sure you change your mind.
Fuck all Metternichs.
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:22:12 PM
:huh: Recreating hereditary monarchy and nobility after one of the most celebrated republican revolts in history?
:huh: When was this "republican revolt?" The one in 1789 created a constitutional (but still hereditary) monarchy.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 26, 2014, 04:41:15 PM
And having no choice in the matter does tend to make a man revisit his convictions. Especially with an army on the doorstep to make sure you change your mind.
One would think so. But not that family. They never learned a damn thing.
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:22:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:18:58 PM
Napoleon was one of history's great reactionaries.
Opportunists? Sure. Reactionary? Erm...don't see that.
:huh: Recreating hereditary monarchy and nobility after one of the most celebrated republican revolts in history?
It was all vanity, not to restore the notion of Monarchy and Nobility. Napoleon actually ruined that spectacularly by making it so vulgar.
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 09:09:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:22:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:18:58 PM
Napoleon was one of history's great reactionaries.
Opportunists? Sure. Reactionary? Erm...don't see that.
:huh: Recreating hereditary monarchy and nobility after one of the most celebrated republican revolts in history?
It was all vanity, not to restore the notion of Monarchy and Nobility. Napoleon actually ruined that spectacularly by making it so vulgar.
Before I looked over to the side I thought this post was written by Sheilbh.
I will take that as a compliment :hug:
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 09:09:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:22:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:18:58 PM
Napoleon was one of history's great reactionaries.
Opportunists? Sure. Reactionary? Erm...don't see that.
:huh: Recreating hereditary monarchy and nobility after one of the most celebrated republican revolts in history?
It was all vanity, not to restore the notion of Monarchy and Nobility. Napoleon actually ruined that spectacularly by making it so vulgar.
It was rather vulgar to begin with.
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 09:09:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:22:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 26, 2014, 04:18:58 PM
Napoleon was one of history's great reactionaries.
Opportunists? Sure. Reactionary? Erm...don't see that.
:huh: Recreating hereditary monarchy and nobility after one of the most celebrated republican revolts in history?
It was all vanity, not to restore the notion of Monarchy and Nobility. Napoleon actually ruined that spectacularly by making it so vulgar.
You is what you do.
Quote from: Valmy on May 26, 2014, 09:09:30 PM
It was all vanity, not to restore the notion of Monarchy and Nobility. Napoleon actually ruined that spectacularly by making it so vulgar.
:lol: Okay. This is so wrong that I don't even want to start on just how many ways in which it is wrong. I'll just note that "vulgar" titles like Duke D'Auerstat and Prince de la Moskowa were won at the risk of the winners' lives.
Maybe a little research on your part can reveal to you the purpose of Napoleon's "aristocracy of merit." If it was vulgar, then so is pretty much all of modern western society.