Languish.org

QuoteBirmingham launched a probe Monday into an alleged hardline Muslim plot to take control of schools.

The city council said it had appointed a chief adviser to examine at least 200 complaints as the investigation widened to 25 schools from an initial four.

Concerns about how some of the 430 schools in the city were being run first emerged last year in a leaked anonymous letter which outlined how to implement what it called Operation Trojan Horse.

The letter, which credited the alleged plot with forcing a change of leadership at four schools, gave instructions on ousting and replacing uncooperative headteachers and school governors.

"We have an obligation to our children to fulfil our roles and ensure these schools are run on Islamic principles," the letter says.

"We... are on our way to getting rid of more headteachers and taking over their schools."

The letter continued: "You must remember this is a 'jihad' and as such all means possible to win the war is acceptable."

Birmingham has a large Muslim population. Some 22 percent of the city's residents identified themselves as such in the 2011 census.

Since the letter emerged, whistleblowers including former staff have come forward, making claims that boys and girls were segregated in classrooms and assemblies, sex education was banned and non-Muslim staff were bullied.

In one case, it was alleged that the teachings of the firebrand Al-Qaeda-linked Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki -- who was killed by a US drone strike in Yemen in 2011 -- were praised in an assembly.

- Self-governing academies -

"As more schools have come forward than the ones named in the Trojan Horse document, issues have arisen about behaviour in schools, the way in which schools are run," city council leader Albert Bore told BBC television.

"It is about, generally speaking, the behaviour of the schools, what happens within the schools, the school day, the school assembly, the way in which children in schools are organised."

The allegations focus on a category of schools known as academies. Established from 2000 onwards, they are state-funded but are self-governing and independent of local authority control.

Bore said it was "part of the frustration" that the city council had no remit in the schools, which answer to the national Department for Education.

"We do not know who's on the governing body (of the schools)," he said.

The council will publish its findings before mid-June.

Education Secretary Michael Gove has sent inspectors to 15 Birmingham schools in recent weeks.

On a visit to Birmingham earlier this month, Prime Minister David Cameron spoke about the issue, saying: "We will not accept any school begin run by extremists or promoting extremist views."

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said Monday that schools should not be allowed to become "silos of segregation".

"I am very concerned whenever I hear allegations that schools, funded by the taxpayer, become vehicles for the propagation of particular ideologies which divide young children and pupils off from other people in society," he said.

"The Department for Education is taking this very seriously."

Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2014, 04:48:11 PM
This is what happens when people roll their eyes whenever you mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  You have to move on to the next available target.

Quote from: garbon on April 14, 2014, 04:40:33 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/birmingham-probes-muslim-takeover-schools-plot-140038655.html

I read this a couple times and am still not really sure how this happens. :hmm:

Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 14, 2014, 05:37:25 PM
I heard that Sharon law was being implemented in Ireland too.

Quote from: Sheilbh on April 14, 2014, 06:00:08 PM
I'd probably wait for more to come out on this. It could be something, or it could be a Labour local authority grandstanding.

Quote from: dps on April 14, 2014, 06:05:55 PM
I was totally confused unti I clicked on the link and saw the London dateline.  I couldn't figure out why the British government was commenting on conditions in Alabama schools.  Wrong Birmingham.

Quote from: dps on April 14, 2014, 06:05:55 PM
I couldn't figure out why the British government was commenting on conditions in Alabama schools. 

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on April 15, 2014, 01:10:07 PM
I fear they'll get their hands on the schools' setting and theme next. :(

Quote from: Kleves on April 15, 2014, 11:09:29 PM
They called their secret plot 'Operation Trojan Horse?"  :hmm:

Quote from: Kleves on April 15, 2014, 11:09:29 PM
They called their secret plot 'Operation Trojan Horse?"  :hmm:

Quote from: garbon on April 15, 2014, 06:30:14 PM
Americans, unable to think about anything that doesn't involve them. <_<

QuoteDavid Cameron furious over extremism row between top ministers
PM demands full briefing on exchanges between Theresa May and Michael Gove over strategy in tackling extremism
Nicholas Watt, chief political correspondent
The Guardian, Wednesday 4 June 2014 21.27 BST
Jump to comments (...)

A furious David Cameron has ordered all the facts to be laid before him after a row between Theresa May and Michael Gove over the government's strategy in tackling Islamist extremism burst into the open, overshadowing the final Queen's speech before the general election.

The prime minister raised his concerns with Gove in a brief meeting in Downing Street on Wednesday morning in advance of the Queen's speech after No 10 awoke to headlines about a major falling-out between two of the cabinet's heaviest hitters. Cameron, who left London shortly after the Queen's speech for the G7 summit in Brussels, has asked for a full briefing on all the contacts between May and Gove to be placed on his desk by the time he returns home later this week, amid a feeling at senior levels that there was fault on both sides.

The row exploded when the Times reported that the home secretary and the education secretary were "at war" over the government's strategy in tackling extremism. The Times quoted an education department source as saying that Charles Farr, the Home Office official in charge of security and counter-terrorism, is wrong to target only violent extremists. Gove believes that all extremists, whether or not they support violence, should be tackled.

Using vivid language, the source told the Times: "Farr always believed if extremists become violent we should deal with it. It has been characterised by others in government as just beating back the crocodiles that came close to the boat rather than draining the swamp."

Gove, who wrote a polemical book, Celsius 7/7, in 2006 on the dangers posed by extremism, told Cameron that he was the source quoted in the Times. He said he had returned to the newspaper where he once worked for a 70-minute lunch on Monday and had made the remarks in response to questions about the "Trojan horse" alleged infiltration of schools in Birmingham by extremists.

The admission by Gove that he was the source for the Times story was seen as important in Whitehall, where it had initially been assumed that the education secretary had deliberately decided to launch a strike against May on the eve of the Queen's speech. Gove told Cameron that he had simply answered questions from the Times editorial board in an open manner and in a way that was entirely consistent with the prime minister's speech on extremism at the Munich security conference in 2011.

The prime minister made clear to Gove that he was deeply disappointed that the row had overshadowed the Queen's speech. But eyebrows in Whitehall were also raised at the response from the home secretary's office.

May released a letter to Gove to the Times on Wednesday afternoon. A link to the letter was posted at 12.24am in the morning on the official Home Office Twitter feed after the first edition of the Times was published. It is thought that Fiona Cunningham, the home secretary's media special adviser, who is also in a relationship with Farr, may face questions about the tweet.

One senior Whitehall source said: "We have to get to the bottom of what happened. The release of the letter in the early hours was unusual. We will establish the facts and respond accordingly."

May's office only sent the letter to Gove's office at 4.30pm on Tuesday afternoon – eight hours before the tweet. There was some surprise because the letter was not technically about the disagreement between Gove and May about tackling extremism, which dated back to a meeting of the Whitehall Prevent committee last November.

Gove had written to the prime minister, in a letter copied to May and all members of the committee, after they failed to reach agreement at the November meeting. A compromise was then agreed.

The letter from May sent on Tuesday dealt with the more narrow issue of a voluntary code of practice for madrassas and supplementary schools. The letter addressed the policy but then had a final paragraph, likened to a letter from a shadow secretary of state, which posed a series of hostile questions about the failure of the education department to tackle extremism in Birmingham schools.

Tory MPs lined up on either side of the May/Gove battle, which is being fuelled by the eventual succession to the prime minister. Crispin Blunt, the former prisons minister, accused Gove of using Britain's national security council to promote "neocon" ideas that could encourage moderates to move towards Islamist extremism.

One senior Tory said the home secretary was irritated that Gove writes to the prime minister when he struggles to win the argument in cabinet committees. The MP said: "It would be wrong to say that Theresa is at the end of her tether. She always keeps going. It is cold fury rather than losing her temper."

Supporters of a potential leadership bid by George Osborne, the chancellor, whose numbers include Gove, believe the home secretary is stamping her mark on the party. "This is Theresa laying out her standard," one minister said. "People admire Theresa but there aren't really any May-ites prepared to go into the trenches with her. In contrast George has legions of supporters whose numbers are increasing as the economy improves. Michael is so close to George they are joined at the hip."

Relations between Gove and May have been poisonous since the education secretary challenged her during a cabinet meeting last year to stop undermining the prime minister when he spoke out against prominent Tories promoting their leadership credentials. Since that intervention in March last year, when she set out a wide-ranging credo in a speech to a ConservativeHome conference, May has immeasurably strengthened her position. She is widely seen as one of the steadiest cabinet ministers who, with little fanfare, has made deep changes most notably in policing.

"Theresa is a brilliant example of how you can do more with less," one admiring minister said, citing her recent speech in which she warned the Police Federation that she will change the law unless it introduces far-reaching reforms. May has been rewarded for her performance after she came top in a ConservativeHome poll of likely contenders for the leadership.

The home secretary secured the support of 35% of party members, an increase of 15 points in a month. Boris Johnson was on 23% with Gove trailing on 7.9%.

But Gove does not see himself as a future Tory leader. He is instead motivated by two key factors. These are: ensuring that the government leaves a lasting legacy in key areas, such as schools reform and tackling extremism; and shoring up the position of the prime minister and the chancellor, George Osborne, his favourite for the succession.

The Gove tactics have also led to tensions with Johnson, who was upset when the education secretary told Rupert Murdoch and his key UK staff that the London mayor would be unsuitable as a prime minister.

QuoteThe allegations relating to schools in Birmingham raise serious questions about the quality of school governance and oversight arrangements in the maintained sector, not just the supplementary schools that would be signatories to this code of practice. How did it come to pass, for example, that one of the governors at Park View was the chairman of the education committee of the Muslim Council of Britain? Is it true that Birmingham city council was warned about these allegations in 2008? Is it true that the Department for Education was warned in 2010? If so, why did nobody act? I am aware that several investigations are still ongoing and those investigations are yet to conclude. But it is clear to me that we will need to take clear action to improve the quality of staffing and governance if we are to prevent extremism in schools.

QuoteA Sikh Principal, Too English for a Largely Muslim School
By KIMIKO DE FREYTAS-TAMURADEC. 7, 2014

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2014%2F12%2F08%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F08birmingham-SUB%2F08birmingham-1417994826871-master675.jpg&hash=20d313531c135a4b1d3902fbd057dc2383957f4b)
Balwant Bains says he faced relentless criticism from a Muslim-dominated school board. Credit Andrew Testa for The New York Times

BIRMINGHAM, England — As a Sikh and second-generation Briton running a public school made up mostly of Muslim students, Balwant Bains was at the center of the issues facing multicultural Britain, including the perennial question of balancing religious precepts and cultural identity against assimilation.

But in January, Mr. Bains stepped down as the principal of the Saltley School and Specialist Science College, saying he could no longer do the job in the face of relentless criticism from the Muslim-dominated school board. It had pressed him, unsuccessfully, to replace some courses with Islamic and Arabic studies, segregate girls and boys and drop a citizenship class on tolerance and democracy in Britain.

"I suppose I was a threat, giving these children more British values, for them to be integrated into society," Mr. Bains said in his first interview since the controversy over his departure.

His experience has helped bring to life the often deeply emotional and highly contentious conflicts unearthed by a British government investigation this year into whether organized groups of conservative Muslims were having undue influence on public schools.

The topic has become especially sensitive at a time when Britain is concerned about the radicalization of young Muslims in the country and their involvement with jihadis in Syria and Iraq. The investigation was prompted by an anonymous letter, sent last year to local officials in Birmingham, alleging an organized Islamic takeover of British schools in Muslim neighborhoods.

Conducted by the Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills, or Ofsted, the inquiry found the allegations to be overstated. But the agency found much that was troubling about Muslim efforts to promote changes in secular public schools, and it has recently widened its investigation to 46 schools across the country.

The investigation found that five schools in Birmingham, including Mr. Bains's, shared a pattern of behavior similar to what was described in the anonymous letter. The letter also cited Mr. Bains's impending resignation, a month before it was made official and which only a few knew about, suggesting that the author was someone with detailed knowledge of the schools.

"The Sikh head running a Muslim school," the letter said, "will soon be sacked and we will move in."

The investigation found that some teachers and school board governors at the other schools were encouraging homophobia, anti-Semitism and support for Al Qaeda, sometimes inviting speakers who endorsed the establishment of a state run under Sharia law.

One school stopped music and drama lessons as well as Christmas and Diwali celebrations, and subsidized trips to Saudi Arabia for Muslim students.

In another school, the report found, girls and female teachers were discriminated against, and compulsory sex education, including discussions about forced marriage, was banned. Girls and boys seen talking for too long or considered flirtatious were reprimanded, while boys were given worksheets that said a wife had to obey her husband.

The report, released in July, highlighted Mr. Bains's case and concluded that there had been a "coordinated, deliberate and sustained action, carried out by a number of associated individuals, to introduce an intolerant and aggressive Islamic ethos into a few schools in Birmingham."

Muhammad Khan, the chairman of the board of governors at the time, who is no longer at the school, did not respond to repeated requests for comment. Three governors who were also present at meetings with Mr. Bains also refused to comment on his allegations.

Muslim leaders in Britain have condemned the report's findings, saying it was wrong to conflate conservative Muslim practices with an alleged agenda to Islamicize school systems.

Mr. Bains, 47, was born to Indian immigrants in a suburb of Coventry notorious for prostitution and violent crime. He grew up listening to stories of how his father, a teacher in Punjab State, walked 30 miles each day to and from school. He would study by candlelight because his village had no electricity. After arriving in Britain and securing work as a laborer, he put his son and daughters through college.

"It made me value education more, and because it is free in this country," Mr. Bains said. "I lifted myself out of poverty because of education. If I could do it, if I could break the cycle, other children could, too."

His background, he said, is that "I'm an inclusionist."

He added that he saw his role as being to "educate children to live and function in a multicultural Britain, to be appreciative of the views of other people, but also to express themselves."

In 2012, he became head teacher of Saltley, a school where grades were falling behind the national average. In spite of his ordeal throughout 2013, the school achieved its best General Certificate of Secondary Education grades ever — roughly equivalent to the high school diploma in America. Britain's school inspectorate judged the school as one of the most improved state schools that year.

"But I never got a single congratulation" from the school's governing board, a mix of elected parents and other people from the community and members appointed to represent the staff and the local government, Mr. Bains said. "It was emotional harassment."

The chairman of the governing board took to challenging his day-to-day decision making, Mr. Bains said. In one instance he was required to justify every decision he made during a three-month period, Mr. Bains said, including why he had students walk on the right side of the corridor instead of the left, what he said at assemblies and why he made changes to the school website. He had to print and distribute the resulting 300-page document to each of the 15 members of the governing board.

When a student threatened six classmates with a knife, he expelled the boy, a Muslim, in a decision supported by parents and the local authority. But governors reinstated the boy. Because Mr. Bains did not suspend another student, a white boy who had surrendered the weapon, talk spread among staff that he was racist and Islamophobic. He discovered a Facebook post and text messages calling on parents and students to protest against him, he said, and later learned that the message had even been circulated among local mosques.

"Some of the children would come in and tell me, 'Mr. Bains, they're going to egg your car today, so you better move your car,' " he said. "I felt very isolated, I was despondent. I was a head teacher going into work without any power."

The treatment, he said, lasted 11 months, beginning just two months after he was appointed head teacher, until he resigned.

By then, all non-Muslim governors except one at his school had left. He was immediately replaced by a friend of the chairman of the board of governors. A number of staff members at other schools cited in the government investigation also resigned because they disagreed with the attitudes taken by some administrators. They also claimed that teachers had been appointed based on their religious zeal, not their teaching qualifications.

The government report partly vindicated him, Mr. Bains said. But if nothing changes, he said, "then it means anyone can just go in and destroy a school and get away with it."

Quote from: garbon on January 11, 2015, 06:33:04 PM
I found this fun. :)

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/fox-news-said-non-muslims-dont-visit-birmingham-and-created

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2014, 09:03:37 PM
Shit, I thought it was Birmingham, Alabama.  Now that would've been fun to watch.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2014, 09:03:37 PM
Shit, I thought it was Birmingham, Alabama.  Now that would've been fun to watch.

QuoteA Sikh Principal, Too English for a Largely Muslim School
By KIMIKO DE FREYTAS-TAMURADEC. 7, 2014

Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2015, 02:16:52 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2014, 09:03:37 PM
Shit, I thought it was Birmingham, Alabama.  Now that would've been fun to watch.

Wow. Ok, maybe it bears mentioning that the shooting last week did not happen in Paris, Texas either.  :secret:

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 12, 2015, 02:22:44 AM

Quote from: Martinus on January 12, 2015, 02:16:52 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2014, 09:03:37 PM
Shit, I thought it was Birmingham, Alabama.  Now that would've been fun to watch.

Wow. Ok, maybe it bears mentioning that the shooting last week did not happen in Paris, Texas either.  :secret:

It also bears mentioning that you're replying to a post from nine months ago. :secret:

QuoteNon-Muslims do not go to the British city of Birmingham, which has become a "totally Muslim" city, terrorism expert Steven Emerson has claimed on US news channel Fox News.


In Britain, it's not just no-go zones, there are actual cities like Birmingham that are totally Muslim where non-Muslims just simply don't go in.

And, parts of London, there are actually Muslim religious police that actually beat and actually wound seriously anyone who doesn't dress according to religious Muslim attire.

Emerson's website describes him as "one of the leading authorities" on Islamic extremist networks, and states:


Emerson and his staff frequently provide briefings to US government and law enforcement agencies, members of Congress and congressional committees.

Quote from: Gups on January 12, 2015, 07:48:26 AM
Some helpful travel advice from Fox.

QuoteNon-Muslims do not go to the British city of Birmingham, which has become a "totally Muslim" city, terrorism expert Steven Emerson has claimed on US news channel Fox News.


In Britain, it's not just no-go zones, there are actual cities like Birmingham that are totally Muslim where non-Muslims just simply don't go in.

And, parts of London, there are actually Muslim religious police that actually beat and actually wound seriously anyone who doesn't dress according to religious Muslim attire.

Emerson's website describes him as "one of the leading authorities" on Islamic extremist networks, and states:


Emerson and his staff frequently provide briefings to US government and law enforcement agencies, members of Congress and congressional committees.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/12/fox-news-expert-ridiculed-over-birmingham-is-totally-muslim-city-claims

QuoteSo he's now gone and called Birmingham beautiful, this guy just can't stop just making shit up.

Quote from: Siege on January 12, 2015, 03:12:54 PM
Muslims are going for the end game.

Quote from: Siege on January 12, 2015, 03:12:54 PM
Muslims are going for the end game.

Quote from: derspiess on January 12, 2015, 09:02:49 AM
Hey guys, check out what this douchebag on Fox News said:

http://www.businessinsider.com/birmingham-muslim-comments-on-fox-news-2015-1

Quote from: mongers on January 11, 2015, 07:15:39 PM
That's beyond stupid, it's contemptible, he must have know what he said was a pack of lies, but choose to say it because thought he could manipulate fox news into taking the debate/putting out that message.

QuoteReligion in the Netherlands was predominantly Christian until late into the 20th century. Although religious diversity remains, there has been a decline of religious adherence. The Netherlands is one of the most secular countries in Western Europe, with only 39% being religiously affiliated (31% for those aged under 35), and fewer than 5.6% visiting church regularly (meaning once or more per month) in 2010. Religion is in the Netherlands generally considered a personal matter which is not supposed to be propagated in public.[1]

In 2010 the Dutch population was made up of 16,615,000 people. Among these 24.6% (4.1 million) were Roman Catholics, 14.8% (2.5 million) were Protestants (of these 2.25 million or 13.5% were Reformed and Lutherans, 230,000 or 1.3% were other Protestants), 0.7% (130,000) were other Christians, Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses and others, 5.8% (907,000) were Muslims, 1.0% (170,000) were Buddhists, 0.9% (150,000) were Hindus. 8,014,000 people or 51.3% of the population were mostly non religious, and 1.2% were followers of other religions. Also Ietsism, Agnosticism and Christian atheism are on the rise; the first two being generally accepted and the last being more or less considered to be non-controversial.[2]

QuoteA study by UK-based pollster Ipsos Mori found the average Italian believes that foreigners represent 30 percent of the total population, and that 20 percent of those are Muslim - whereas in fact just four percent are.

Quote from: The GuardianToday's key fact: you are probably wrong about almost everything

Britons overstate the proportion of Muslims in their country by a factor of four, according to a new survey by Ipsos Mori that reveals public understanding of the numbers behind the daily news in 14 countries.

People from the UK also think immigrants make up twice the proportion of the population as is really the case – and that many more people are unemployed than actually are.

Such misconceptions are typical around the world, but they can have a significant impact as politicians aim to focus on voter perceptions, not on the actual data.

Bobby Duffy, managing director of the Ipsos Mori social research institute, said: "These misperceptions present clear issues for informed public debate and policymaking. For example, public priorities may well be different if we had a clearer view of the scale of immigration and the real incidence of teenage mothers."

The actual percentage of Muslims in the UK is 5%, but those surveyed by Ipsos Mori said they thought it was 21%.

Quote from: Valmy on January 12, 2015, 11:37:22 PM
I don't know where this stuff comes from.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2015, 12:15:01 AM
I found think link in an article about Italian paranoia on Al Jazeera:

QuoteA study by UK-based pollster Ipsos Mori found the average Italian believes that foreigners represent 30 percent of the total population, and that 20 percent of those are Muslim - whereas in fact just four percent are.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/29/todays-key-fact-you-are-probably-wrong-about-almost-everything

Quote from: The GuardianToday's key fact: you are probably wrong about almost everything

Britons overstate the proportion of Muslims in their country by a factor of four, according to a new survey by Ipsos Mori that reveals public understanding of the numbers behind the daily news in 14 countries.

People from the UK also think immigrants make up twice the proportion of the population as is really the case – and that many more people are unemployed than actually are.

Such misconceptions are typical around the world, but they can have a significant impact as politicians aim to focus on voter perceptions, not on the actual data.

Bobby Duffy, managing director of the Ipsos Mori social research institute, said: "These misperceptions present clear issues for informed public debate and policymaking. For example, public priorities may well be different if we had a clearer view of the scale of immigration and the real incidence of teenage mothers."

The actual percentage of Muslims in the UK is 5%, but those surveyed by Ipsos Mori said they thought it was 21%.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fni%2F1414524513816%2FPerception_MUSLIM.svg&hash=356b3849c178bc8632646ca875303124141a429e)

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 13, 2015, 02:20:33 AM
Not sure you're in a position to laugh given that Poles think there's 12 times as many Muslims in their country :P

The research is from Mori. The Guardian did pretty graphics first.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2015, 03:16:34 AM
I assume that the question asked was not really "Out of 100 people how many do you think are Muslim", because, if it was, then 21 is pretty close to the actual figure  :hmm:

Quote from: Gups on January 13, 2015, 03:27:02 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2015, 03:16:34 AM
I assume that the question asked was not really "Out of 100 people how many do you think are Muslim", because, if it was, then 21 is pretty close to the actual figure  :hmm:

No, it's 5* (this was a national poll, not just B'ham)

*as at 2011 census

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 03:26:03 AM
Well, Americans think it's 15 times more. :P

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 03:28:01 AM

Quote from: Gups on January 13, 2015, 03:27:02 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2015, 03:16:34 AM
I assume that the question asked was not really "Out of 100 people how many do you think are Muslim", because, if it was, then 21 is pretty close to the actual figure  :hmm:

No, it's 5* (this was a national poll, not just B'ham)

*as at 2011 census

I think Tricky Dick meant that globally around 20% of people are muslim - and the question as reported by the Guarniad makes no reference to a specific country or area, just "people".

Quote from: Gups on January 13, 2015, 04:09:19 AM

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 03:28:01 AM

Quote from: Gups on January 13, 2015, 03:27:02 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 13, 2015, 03:16:34 AM
I assume that the question asked was not really "Out of 100 people how many do you think are Muslim", because, if it was, then 21 is pretty close to the actual figure  :hmm:

No, it's 5* (this was a national poll, not just B'ham)

*as at 2011 census

I think Tricky Dick meant that globally around 20% of people are muslim - and the question as reported by the Guarniad makes no reference to a specific country or area, just "people".

"Out of every 100 people in [Country]"

This seems to be a reference to a specific country, presumably the country the respondent is resident. in

Quote2.Muslims: we hugely over-estimate the proportion of Muslims in Britain – we think one in five British people are Muslims (21%) when the actual figure is 5% (one in twenty).

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 02:11:26 AM
Edit: and :D at Americans. Maybe people assume that black = muslim, as 15% is close to the estimate of the black populace in the US. :D

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 02:11:26 AM
Isn't this the same as the iconographic from last week published by the Economist? I think Syt reposted that in the Islamophobia thread.

Good to see the Guarniad steal other people's material. :P

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2015, 06:48:02 AM

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 02:11:26 AM
Edit: and :D at Americans. Maybe people assume that black = muslim, as 15% is close to the estimate of the black populace in the US. :D

No, it's probably due to the high number of encounters at convenience stores, gas stations and take-out joints the average American has with the Muslim population that results in extrapolating the population. Because unlike Europe, our Muslims are actually allowed to have jobs or even own businesses, we don't keep them in penned up in ghettos.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2015, 11:00:04 AM
"Don't be ridiculous", says the "Maybe people assume that black = muslim" guy from the assbackwards eastern European dirt farm.

QuoteHow's that whole unemployment rate going with Muslim immigrants in Europe these days?

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 11:42:07 AM
The line about black = muslim was a jab at stupidity of Americans, not a statement of fact.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2015, 06:48:02 AM

Quote from: Martinus on January 13, 2015, 02:11:26 AM
Edit: and :D at Americans. Maybe people assume that black = muslim, as 15% is close to the estimate of the black populace in the US. :D

No, it's probably due to the high number of encounters at convenience stores, gas stations and take-out joints the average American has with the Muslim population that results in extrapolating the population. Because unlike Europe, our Muslims are actually allowed to have jobs or even own businesses, we don't keep them in penned up in ghettos.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 13, 2015, 12:09:15 PM
Obviously you've never been to France with the classic Arab grocery open all the time to get some overpriced beer or wine since it's the only way to survive versus the supermarkets since they cannot compete on a price basis.
Not like we needed a reminder though.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2015, 12:13:22 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 13, 2015, 12:09:15 PM
Obviously you've never been to France with the classic Arab grocery open all the time to get some overpriced beer or wine since it's the only way to survive versus the supermarkets since they cannot compete on a price basis.
Not like we needed a reminder though.

How's that whole unemployment rate going with Muslim immigrants in Europe these days?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2015, 12:13:22 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 13, 2015, 12:09:15 PM
Obviously you've never been to France with the classic Arab grocery open all the time to get some overpriced beer or wine since it's the only way to survive versus the supermarkets since they cannot compete on a price basis.
Not like we needed a reminder though.

How's that whole unemployment rate going with Muslim immigrants in Europe these days?

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 13, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
Way lower than Gypsies' unemployment. Glad you asked. :) Yet, Gypsies if legally arrived ( a big if I know) can have jobs and are even allowed to own business, like muslim immigrants.

QuoteGuess what, the new tracksuit crowd is not that big into hard work (say construction industry), unlike their parents, grand-parents or even grand-grand parents. With little place or credit given to education among them, problems follow. It's not like the earlier waves of immigration did not run into problems. Some waves arriving at the same time did not get into the same troubles for some reason...

Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 13, 2015, 12:27:06 PM

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on January 13, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
Way lower than Gypsies' unemployment. Glad you asked. :) Yet, Gypsies if legally arrived ( a big if I know) can have jobs and are even allowed to own business, like muslim immigrants.

So what.  I didn't ask about Gypsies, I don't give two rat fucks about Gypsies, the Ipsos poll was not about Gypsies, and the discussion in this thread is not about Gypsies.  Maybe Gypsies should start shooting up newpapers and blowing shit up if they want to get on the radar.

QuoteGuess what, the new tracksuit crowd is not that big into hard work (say construction industry), unlike their parents, grand-parents or even grand-grand parents. With little place or credit given to education among them, problems follow. It's not like the earlier waves of immigration did not run into problems. Some waves arriving at the same time did not get into the same troubles for some reason...

That's just super.