Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools/chalk-talk-impressive-results-in-the-far-east--a-shadow-over-plans-to-improve-our-schools-9110187.html)
Quote
Chalk Talk: Impressive results in the Far East - a 'shadow' over plans to improve our schools?
The vogue is to marvel at the achievements of Far Eastern education systems such as South Korea, Japan and Shanghai in China. After all, they performed far better than us in the international Pisa (Programme for International Student Assessment) tests in literacy and numeracy so we should be able to learn something from them.
Perhaps, though, a note of caution should be sounded before our education leaders stampede to the airports. A blog posted by a Japan-based educationalist on the website of Schools Improvement Net, dedicated to sharing ideas about improving school standards, gives another explanation.
It seems, according to education writer, Manabu Watanbe, that the impressive results in the Far East may not be down to the performance of schools.
He cites research which shows that in China 73.8 per cent of primary school students received "shadow education", ie, supplementary schools or private tutors. A similar picture emerges in Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea.
Watanbe argues that shadow education is best developed in Japan where about 50,000 "juku" companies have set up, offering distance learning to pupils out of school.
Step off the plane, then. Go to Finland, another high performer, instead?
***
The vagaries of testing very young children emerged at a conference last week about the Government's new curriculum for primary schools. It is very likely children will undergo "baseline assessment" – testing when they start school so their progress can be measured at the national curriculum tests at 11.
According to Jan Dubiel, from Early Excellence and one of the guest speakers at the conference: "If it is very young children [who are tested], you're not going to get meaningful data." The conference, organised by Westminster Education Forum, was told of one group of children who, when tested on a Monday, were considered "gifted and talented" but, by Friday, registered as "special needs". The answer seems obvious: test them on a Wednesday...
What a mystery...
Asian high achievement in the US also seems to wear off after a few generations like most immigrant qualities.
Anyway kids in the US today are already way overscheduled I cannot imagine also putting my kids in another supplementary school.
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:34:53 PM
Asian high achievement in the US also seems to wear off after a few generations like most immigrant qualities.
After a few generations in the US they are probably American, not Asian. :hmm:
Quote from: The Brain on February 21, 2014, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:34:53 PM
Asian high achievement in the US also seems to wear off after a few generations like most immigrant qualities.
After a few generations in the US they are probably American, not Asian. :hmm:
Yes, that is what I was saying. The become fat anti-intellectual slobs like the rest of us and stop giving their kids supplementary schooling.
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:34:53 PM
Asian high achievement in the US also seems to wear off after a few generations like most immigrant qualities.
Article in the NYT said high achieving ethnic groups lose their advantage in the 3rd generation.
Also of note was the fact that Nigerians are high achievers in the US.
QuoteAnyway kids in the US today are already way overscheduled I cannot imagine also putting my kids in another supplementary school.
Cut the extracurriculars.
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:37:10 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 21, 2014, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:34:53 PM
Asian high achievement in the US also seems to wear off after a few generations like most immigrant qualities.
After a few generations in the US they are probably American, not Asian. :hmm:
Yes, that is what I was saying. The become fat anti-intellectual slobs like the rest of us.
So how was your comment relevant? Rhetorical.
Quote from: The Brain on February 21, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
So how was your comment relevant? Rhetorical.
That the advantage was based on a culture where you supplement your kids education with other sources. Once they are over here and out of that culture awhile they stop doing that.
Valmy: Not tiger dad. :P
Meanwhile, in the USA: http://www.myfoxny.com/story/24782201/ny-lawmaker-parents-should-take-parenting-classes
pfff
Quote from: The Brain on February 21, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
So how was your comment relevant? Rhetorical.
'Murricans want it both ways. What's good for the Dane isn't good for the gander.
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:37:10 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 21, 2014, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:34:53 PM
Asian high achievement in the US also seems to wear off after a few generations like most immigrant qualities.
After a few generations in the US they are probably American, not Asian. :hmm:
Yes, that is what I was saying. The become fat anti-intellectual slobs like the rest of us and stop giving their kids supplementary schooling.
Does that really happen?
Quote from: Valmy on February 21, 2014, 02:40:43 PM
Quote from: The Brain on February 21, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
So how was your comment relevant? Rhetorical.
That the advantage was based on a culture where you supplement your kids education with other sources. Once they are over here and out of that culture awhile they stop doing that.
Seems like they still score pretty high on IQ tests.
Quote from: derspiess on February 21, 2014, 03:09:09 PM
Does that really happen?
Well it does according to two people who have been making waves on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?_r=0
But I do not have access to any significant data on the subject...well except all the confidential data on tens of thousands of current and former students of UT Austin. But it might take me awhile to parse that.
QuoteSeems like they still score pretty high on IQ tests.
IQ tests are racist biased tests that favor Asian people everybody knows that man. But seriously I have no idea, I have never seen a breakdown on race PLUS generational information.
It's really only effective at teaching math and scientific formula that can be memorized. Korean education is pitiful at teaching students how to think creatively and solve problems.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 21, 2014, 04:07:03 PM
It's really only effective at teaching math and scientific formula that can be memorized. Korean education is pitiful at teaching students how to think creatively and solve problems.
I bet they score way below Amerikuh when it comes to self-esteem as well.
Quote from: derspiess on February 21, 2014, 04:14:15 PM
I bet they score way below Amerikuh when it comes to self-esteem as well.
Unjustified arrogance is a keystone of American success.
Funny. We in HK marvel at western educational achievement. It is quite obvious to us that western students are happy, confident, outgoing, and willing and able to think outside the box.
I find American and European fascination with Asian educational models puzzling. It's like they've never met anyone who's gone through an Asian education system.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2014, 05:54:24 PM
Funny. We in HK marvel at western educational achievement. It is quite obvious to us that western students are happy, confident, outgoing, and willing and able to think outside the box.
Well, yeah, because we don't have an educational system that stresses rote learning and turns us into downbeaten, fatalistic drones, nor do employers here (in general) give a shit how you did in school. OTOH, our educational system produces college graduates who can't figure your change when they have to settle for a job running a register at McDonalds.
Quote from: dps on February 21, 2014, 06:24:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2014, 05:54:24 PM
Funny. We in HK marvel at western educational achievement. It is quite obvious to us that western students are happy, confident, outgoing, and willing and able to think outside the box.
Well, yeah, because we don't have an educational system that stresses rote learning and turns us into downbeaten, fatalistic drones, nor do employers here (in general) give a shit how you did in school. OTOH, our educational system produces college graduates who can't figure your change when they have to settle for a job running a register at McDonalds.
I think the rote learning, faltalistic drones part is a side effect, not the goal of the East Asian education system. The real goal of the system is selection of the best in a way that gives everybody a fair chance. Even the sons and daughters of the poorest have a shot at joining the office worker class as long as they did well in the anonymous, centralised exams. They may not have the connections, may not have the money for the extra-curriculars, but any kid can memorise stuff. This is important for social cohesion. You maybe poor, but as long as your kid can cram more facts into his head than some rich kid, he can be a doctor or a lawyer someday. As long as he scored top grades, nobody will care about the fact that his parents are janitors.
Yeah you guys do that while tutoring the hell out of your kids at home to make up for it. Our method is to quickly spot any trace of potential and promise in the children and then do everything we can to squash it before it becomes threatening to the others. :lol:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 21, 2014, 06:54:09 PM
Yeah you guys do that while tutoring the hell out of your kids at home to make up for it. Our method is to quickly spot any trace of potential and promise in the children and then do everything we can to squash it before it becomes threatening to the others. :lol:
The tutoring is not done at home. It is done at tutoring workshops. The real purpose of many of those workshops isn't tutoring. It is to keep an eye on the kids while their parents toil in the offices until midnights.
It's done at cram schools that janitors often can't afford. At least that's the complaint voiced in Korea.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 21, 2014, 07:03:30 PM
It's done at cram schools that janitors often can't afford. At least that's the complaint voiced in Korea.
Same complaint in HK. But no one says you *must* have cram schools to tick the right boxes at the exams. Rich kids will always have an advantage. But if they are smart, the poor kids can tick the right boxes as well.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages5.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F26100000%2Ffamly-guy-family-guy-26141760-320-240.gif&hash=1d91ea0848ab7309c96472179c30c72bde559766)
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2014, 06:48:01 PM
I think the rote learning, faltalistic drones part is a side effect, not the goal of the East Asian education system. The real goal of the system is selection of the best in a way that gives everybody a fair chance. Even the sons and daughters of the poorest have a shot at joining the office worker class as long as they did well in the anonymous, centralised exams. They may not have the connections, may not have the money for the extra-curriculars, but any kid can memorise stuff. This is important for social cohesion. You maybe poor, but as long as your kid can cram more facts into his head than some rich kid, he can be a doctor or a lawyer someday. As long as he scored top grades, nobody will care about the fact that his parents are janitors.
I think I sort of went through the Asian educational model. When I first started school, I tested out as not very bright (there were three grouped dvisions--the advanced, the normal, and a special group of very slow kids. I was in the special group).
Up through middle school I had to do a bunch of math problems (usually 400 basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division problems) and read for 2 hours every day. My father would pick the reading material and quiz me on it. At points I also had a tutor. By the time I was in the 8th grade, I was testing out in the 99th percentile of a bunch of subjects and my math tutor was talking to my father about starting to teach me calculus. That is when he pulled the plug on making me do a bunch of crap every day.
My test scores after that point were always really good and I was a National Merit Scholar. I leave it to your judgment how well adjusted I turned out.
Is that where you drew inspiration for your AR stories about hiring a tutor for your daughters?
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on February 21, 2014, 08:35:46 PM
Is that where you drew inspiration for your AR stories about hiring a tutor for your daughters?
I think AR only had one daughter, and I don't remember a tutor. My lack of memory is why I very rarely posted much about my fake family. :P
Not really news in Asia.
The Korean government a year or two ago moved to crack down on the Korean version of jukus as kids were staying there late (post-midnight) and sleeping during school as a result.
It was pretty common when I worked in a high school to hear of kids studying into the wee hours and falling asleep in class as a result.
Asian education is not something to be imitated. It amplifies all the worst aspects of education in the UK. Worrying about doing better at exams is completely getting the wrong end of the problem, educaton being entirely about exams is the problem.
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:05:52 PM
Not really news in Asia.
The Korean government a year or two ago moved to crack down on the Korean version of jukus as kids were staying there late (post-midnight) and sleeping during school as a result.
It was pretty common when I worked in a high school to hear of kids studying into the wee hours and falling asleep in class as a result.
There are after school classes at my high school that a majority of the students attend that go until 10pm.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 21, 2014, 07:03:30 PM
It's done at cram schools that janitors often can't afford. At least that's the complaint voiced in Korea.
I find this kind of interesting. In the 20th century the idea developed of "Any one can be succesful if they are bright and do well at exams!". Which...does kind of work in theory until this fact fully sinks in and everyone realises they have to game the system.
Traditionally in China and particularly Korea they had much the same idea in the shape of the confucian examination system. Anybody could take the exam and get a cushy job in the civil service if they passed...but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.
The world is becoming neo-confucianist :(
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:14:55 PM
The world is becoming neo-confucianist :(
No, it's just that some of the world has never gotten Confucianism out of its system.
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:05:52 PM
The Korean government a year or two ago moved to crack down on the Korean version of jukus as kids were staying there late (post-midnight) and sleeping during school as a result.
HakwonThe Korean government cracked down on hakwons every 4 years I was living there.
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:14:55 PM
but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.
This is a myth. I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 22, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:14:55 PM
but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.
This is a myth. I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.
Which dynasty was this?
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2014, 06:48:01 PM
Quote from: dps on February 21, 2014, 06:24:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 21, 2014, 05:54:24 PM
Funny. We in HK marvel at western educational achievement. It is quite obvious to us that western students are happy, confident, outgoing, and willing and able to think outside the box.
Well, yeah, because we don't have an educational system that stresses rote learning and turns us into downbeaten, fatalistic drones, nor do employers here (in general) give a shit how you did in school. OTOH, our educational system produces college graduates who can't figure your change when they have to settle for a job running a register at McDonalds.
I think the rote learning, faltalistic drones part is a side effect, not the goal of the East Asian education system. The real goal of the system is selection of the best in a way that gives everybody a fair chance. Even the sons and daughters of the poorest have a shot at joining the office worker class as long as they did well in the anonymous, centralised exams. They may not have the connections, may not have the money for the extra-curriculars, but any kid can memorise stuff. This is important for social cohesion. You maybe poor, but as long as your kid can cram more facts into his head than some rich kid, he can be a doctor or a lawyer someday. As long as he scored top grades, nobody will care about the fact that his parents are janitors.
That's, uhm, really not anybody's goal in the West.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 22, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:14:55 PM
but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.
This is a myth. I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.
I don't know that one example is a good refutation of a generalization.
Quote from: garbon on February 22, 2014, 08:25:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 22, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:14:55 PM
but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.
This is a myth. I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.
I don't know that one example is a good refutation of a generalization.
And I don't know if that generalisation has any basis :sleep:
Quote from: The Brain on February 22, 2014, 02:48:47 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on February 22, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
Quote from: Tyr on February 21, 2014, 10:14:55 PM
but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.
This is a myth. I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.
Which dynasty was this?
Duck
QuoteThis is a myth. I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.
Pretty much only the wealthy families.
I'm sure in a thousand years of history there were a bunch of examples of poor kids making it.
Quote from: dps on February 22, 2014, 07:33:32 AM
That's, uhm, really not anybody's goal in the West.
*raises hand*
Its certainly the goal of a lot of working class people that their kids can climb like that.
There are a lot of people working in offices making $10/hour.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 22, 2014, 07:47:45 PM
There are a lot of people working in offices making $10/hour.
Yep.
What with the old story of the university lecturer quitting to become a plumber and all that.
People who work with their hands don't see that however. They just see office work as being instantly better and easier. Hell. Not even just the workers themselves but society as a whole in the UK even. Everything is setup so that university is the only way for anyone with even an ounce of brainpower and training to become an electrician is the failure's route.
I would shoot myself in the head rather than work in an office and sit at a desk all day every day.
Quote from: Tyr on February 22, 2014, 07:45:28 PM
Pretty much only the wealthy families.
I'm sure in a thousand years of history there were a bunch of examples of poor kids making it.
I agree that rich kids have big advantages, but tutorial lessons is probably not one of them.
I've been to a whole bunch of schools, most of them with very working class backgrounds. What strikes me most is that they have given up. They don't believe that they have any chance to be the 2% who will make it. Their English is particularly bad. I have seen students who are taught individual words in like grade 9. By grade 9, we wrote essays and completed one mock exam per week. Those folks just go "hey we'll focus our energy on what we want to do, like drums." It is the whole mindset of the schools, teachers, parents and students that is wrong. If they go down, at least go down fighting to the last gasp. At least try to learn passive voice, not practise African drums.
Quote from: Tyr on February 22, 2014, 07:54:26 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 22, 2014, 07:47:45 PM
There are a lot of people working in offices making $10/hour.
People who work with their hands don't see that however. They just see office work as being instantly better and easier.
I would say that too, if not for having worked in a warehouse for less money. And after a certain age you appreciate certain things, like not having to take Motrin and use a heating pad every day after work.
Quote from: Monoriu on February 22, 2014, 08:30:18 PM
Quote from: Tyr on February 22, 2014, 07:45:28 PM
Pretty much only the wealthy families.
I'm sure in a thousand years of history there were a bunch of examples of poor kids making it.
I agree that rich kids have big advantages, but tutorial lessons is probably not one of them.
I've been to a whole bunch of schools, most of them with very working class backgrounds. What strikes me most is that they have given up. They don't believe that they have any chance to be the 2% who will make it. Their English is particularly bad. I have seen students who are taught individual words in like grade 9. By grade 9, we wrote essays and completed one mock exam per week. Those folks just go "hey we'll focus our energy on what we want to do, like drums." It is the whole mindset of the schools, teachers, parents and students that is wrong. If they go down, at least go down fighting to the last gasp. At least try to learn passive voice, not practise African drums.
Wait...you're speaking about the modern day?
I'm speaking about the old confucian civil service system in imperial times, as shown in its truest form in Korea.
As to modern times...I agree that despair and not trying is a big deal with poor kids. At my school it was drilled into me that I actively had to give off the impression of not trying. Hiding academic books behind magazines and that sort of thing.
But trying to play the same game as those destined for the top is a bit of a mistake, they should instead concentrate on other routes to having a good life.
Quote from: sbr on February 22, 2014, 08:27:37 PM
I would shoot myself in the head rather than work in an office and sit at a desk all day every day.
I would say you are doing it wrong if you were sit in an office all day every day. :D