Excellent piece by the BBC, focusing on Britain's conduct of the war and its general:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zq2y87h#z2x3wmn
I think they have. The generals (well...not just them the armies in general) completely transformed the way war was fought and the equipment and tactics used. There was no major offensive or operation, in the west anyway, that did not have something about it that was unprecedented in military history, either a new experimental piece of weaponry or a new tactic. Now granted all of them failed, but they failed in different ways. The image they just kept sending mass infantry assaults over and over again without any new ideas us not really true. By 1916 being on the defensive was every bit as deadly as being on the attack.
That is not to say I regard the WWI generals as great geniuses either. I just don't think they were any more moronic than generals in any other war.
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2014, 11:38:32 AM
That is not to say I regard the WWI generals as great geniuses either. I just don't think they were any more moronic than generals in any other war.
Shit, compared to the Union generals in the first couple years of the war, they were all Pattons and Rommels.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on February 12, 2014, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 12, 2014, 11:38:32 AM
That is not to say I regard the WWI generals as great geniuses either. I just don't think they were any more moronic than generals in any other war.
Shit, compared to the Union generals in the first couple years of the war, they were all Pattons and Rommels.
Well they were actually professional generals, not Lt. Colonels promoted to Major General or retired junior officers with political connections made Colonels or Bg. Generals.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 12, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
While they were actually professional generals, not Lt. Colonels promoted to Major General or retired junior officers with political connections made Colonels or Bg. Generals.
O RLY?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 12, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
Well they were actually professional generals, not Lt. Colonels promoted to Major General or retired junior officers with political connections made Colonels or Bg. Generals.
Read a biography of Winston Churchill; he was precisely a retired junior officer (second lieutenant) with political connections, promoted to lieutenant colonel and given command of a battalion after he left office as First Lord of the Admiralty.
Slight aside, I was looking at the Jenkins biography recently - worth getting?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 12, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
Well they were actually professional generals, not Lt. Colonels promoted to Major General or retired junior officers with political connections made Colonels or Bg. Generals.
None of them had fought a war remotely like WW1 though and most hadn't fought any war at all.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 12, 2014, 02:04:31 PM
Slight aside, I was looking at the Jenkins biography recently - worth getting?
I have it, but haven't really read it yet. Jenkins has a very quirky style that I think you would like, but which certainly isn't for everyone. Check out some sample pages to see if you can read him for a thousand pages.
Quote from: grumbler on February 12, 2014, 02:19:20 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 12, 2014, 02:04:31 PM
Slight aside, I was looking at the Jenkins biography recently - worth getting?
Jenkins has a very quirky style that I think you would like, but which certainly isn't for everyone.
A Grumbler compliment? :hmm:
I hate officers.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 12, 2014, 02:04:31 PM
Slight aside, I was looking at the Jenkins biography recently - worth getting?
I read it and enjoyed it. It was a pretty good survey of his life, and I think it benefited from Jenkins' political experience.
Quote from: grumbler on February 12, 2014, 02:02:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 12, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
Well they were actually professional generals, not Lt. Colonels promoted to Major General or retired junior officers with political connections made Colonels or Bg. Generals.
Read a biography of Winston Churchill; he was precisely a retired junior officer (second lieutenant) with political connections, promoted to lieutenant colonel and given command of a battalion after he left office as First Lord of the Admiralty.
He had been a major in the Territorial Army, so his jump to major and then lieutenant colonel wasn't totally ridiculous. It's not like they made him a division commander or something.
Quote from: Neil on February 12, 2014, 08:35:07 PM
He had been a major in the Territorial Army, so his jump to major and then lieutenant colonel wasn't totally ridiculous. It's not like they made him a division commander or something.
Still, he was a retired junior officer who got bumped up in rank because of his political connections, as described by Timmay. Agree that it was not totally ridiculous.
Quote from: grumbler on February 12, 2014, 02:02:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 12, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
Well they were actually professional generals, not Lt. Colonels promoted to Major General or retired junior officers with political connections made Colonels or Bg. Generals.
Read a biography of Winston Churchill; he was precisely a retired junior officer (second lieutenant) with political connections, promoted to lieutenant colonel and given command of a battalion after he left office as First Lord of the Admiralty.
How do you get to be First Lord of the Admiralty after 2nd LT even if you have like, ducal blood or something? Shouldn't you be some sort of Lord or Admiral first?
Quote from: grumbler on February 12, 2014, 09:27:48 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 12, 2014, 08:35:07 PM
He had been a major in the Territorial Army, so his jump to major and then lieutenant colonel wasn't totally ridiculous. It's not like they made him a division commander or something.
Still, he was a retired junior officer who got bumped up in rank because of his political connections, as described by Timmay. Agree that it was not totally ridiculous.
Did he really get bumped up in rank due to political connections? I guess they didn't hurt Major Churchill's ambition to become Lieutenant-Colonel Churchill, although he would rather have been Brigadier Churchill.
Quote from: chipwich on February 12, 2014, 09:35:10 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 12, 2014, 02:02:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 12, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
Well they were actually professional generals, not Lt. Colonels promoted to Major General or retired junior officers with political connections made Colonels or Bg. Generals.
Read a biography of Winston Churchill; he was precisely a retired junior officer (second lieutenant) with political connections, promoted to lieutenant colonel and given command of a battalion after he left office as First Lord of the Admiralty.
How do you get to be First Lord of the Admiralty after 2nd LT even if you have like, ducal blood or something? Shouldn't you be some sort of Lord or Admiral first?
You become Home Secretary first, and then you switch jobs with Reginald McKenna.
It's a political position. You don't need to have served to be First Lord. First Sea Lord is the highest ranking professional, First Lord of the Admiralty is his boss. It's like the difference between the Naval Chief of Staff and the Secretary of the Navy.
Quote from: Neil on February 12, 2014, 09:49:25 PM
It's like the difference between the Naval Chief of Staff and the Secretary of the Navy.
In the U.S. this setup is based on civilian control of the military. But doesn't being a lord make it not really civilian, since lordship is a vestige of knights&dukes, which in turn used to compromise the military?
Also, wouldn't being First Lord make Churchill a lord? I thought he specifically didn't want to be a lord so his son could be in the house of commons. How does that work?
The Prime Minister is technically First Lord of the Treasury. It doesn't make him a Lord any more than being Lord Lieutenant of Devon does.
I get the impression that a lot of the history of the Great War were written with an eye toward class conflict.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 12, 2014, 10:00:42 PM
The Prime Minister is technically First Lord of the Treasury. It doesn't make him a Lord any more than being Lord Lieutenant of Devon does.
What does the Lord Lieutenant of Devon do?
Quote from: Razgovory on February 12, 2014, 10:12:07 PM
What does the Lord Lieutenant of Devon do?
They basically deputise for the Queen/Royal Family. So they normally guide them around when they visit the county. They attend civic events, give out minor honours, turn up at the odd military/cadet event, that sort of thing.
Quote from: chipwich on February 12, 2014, 09:57:55 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 12, 2014, 09:49:25 PM
It's like the difference between the Naval Chief of Staff and the Secretary of the Navy.
In the U.S. this setup is based on civilian control of the military. But doesn't being a lord make it not really civilian, since lordship is a vestige of knights&dukes, which in turn used to compromise the military?
Also, wouldn't being First Lord make Churchill a lord? I thought he specifically didn't want to be a lord so his son could be in the house of commons. How does that work?
In Britain this setup is based on civilian control of the military. Not only does lordship have nothing to do with the military in the modern era, but First Lord of the Admiralty is just a title, held over from antiquity (sort of like how the Secretary of War doesn't file memos and get coffee for the other members of the Cabinet). In fact, a slim majority of modern First Lords haven't been Lords at all.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 12, 2014, 02:04:31 PM
Slight aside, I was looking at the Jenkins biography recently - worth getting?
It's OK, but far too hagiographic so fails to really understand the man - his greatness and his many failings.
Jenkins' biog of Gladstone is much better.
derspiess will just blame it all on Al Haig anyway.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 13, 2014, 09:59:41 AM
derspiess will just blame it all on Al Haig anyway.
Well, he was in control there, so the blame must fall on him... :D
Al-Haiga.