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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Razgovory on December 13, 2013, 09:17:58 PM

Title: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Razgovory on December 13, 2013, 09:17:58 PM
Something that I noticed reading that ATF article.  There were sure a lot of defendants just above cucumber intelligence wise.  I got curious and looked up IQ, and while I noticed there is a lot of different scales 60 and below was abysmally low on almost all of them.  It was also quite rare.  I was wondering if anyone here had any insight on how these people were being tested and categorized.  It seemed strange that so many were below functional.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on December 13, 2013, 10:30:49 PM
Hypothesis 1: The police only catch the really dumb ones.

Hypothesis 2: These criminals are apathetic test-takers at best, which is throwing their scores.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 14, 2013, 09:45:08 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on December 13, 2013, 10:30:49 PM
Hypothesis 1: The police only catch the really dumb ones.

True; all the smart ones never go to jail, look at Wall Street, nyuk nyuk.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Barrister on December 14, 2013, 09:47:07 AM
Very low IQ correlates pretty strongly with poor impulse control and inability to see the consequences of your actions, which are the things that lead people into committing most crimes.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 14, 2013, 09:48:21 AM
I dunno, BB...greed seems to affect IQs across the board.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: The Brain on December 14, 2013, 10:22:10 AM
Poors tend towards stupidity.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Syt on December 14, 2013, 11:15:18 AM
Quote from: Barrister on December 14, 2013, 09:47:07 AM
Very low IQ correlates pretty strongly with poor impulse control and inability to see the consequences of your actions, which are the things that lead people into committing most crimes.

Recent studies seem to indicate that when you're poor your decision making process often runs different than if you have money. That people who've been poor for a long time, despite efforts to change it tend to go for the little joys when they can, because whether the money runs out on Wednesday or Thursday is irrelevant at that point.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 14, 2013, 11:25:24 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 14, 2013, 09:48:21 AM
I dunno, BB...greed seems to affect IQs across the board.

Generally in a rational person, fear of prison > greed. So intelligent people need to do more mental gymnastics to convince themselves they can't get caught.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 14, 2013, 11:51:52 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 14, 2013, 11:25:24 AM
So intelligent people need to do more mental gymnastics to convince themselves they can't get caught.

Meh, intelligent people have done incredibly stupid things without much thought behind them, precisely because they think they can't get caught.  Not many mental gymnastics involved, except maybe tumbling.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Razgovory on December 14, 2013, 03:10:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 14, 2013, 09:47:07 AM
Very low IQ correlates pretty strongly with poor impulse control and inability to see the consequences of your actions, which are the things that lead people into committing most crimes.

This is very low IQ though.  Like, "I can't dress myself" levels.  I'm wondering if these tests are being taken after the defendant has been charge and arranged by his attorney.  The defendant wouldn't have much of a reason to do well on this test because findings of diminished capacity may result in leniency. Or if the tests themselves are deeply flawed.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Ideologue on December 14, 2013, 03:18:55 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 14, 2013, 11:15:18 AM
Quote from: Barrister on December 14, 2013, 09:47:07 AM
Very low IQ correlates pretty strongly with poor impulse control and inability to see the consequences of your actions, which are the things that lead people into committing most crimes.

Recent studies seem to indicate that when you're poor your decision making process often runs different than if you have money. That people who've been poor for a long time, despite efforts to change it tend to go for the little joys when they can, because whether the money runs out on Wednesday or Thursday is irrelevant at that point.

I read a neat article comparing it to living with suicidal feelings.  The utility of life is so low that "risking it all" or "blowing it all" means risking very little in fact and dumb decisions like "let's hold up this liquor store" are more rational when viewed in that context.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: dps on December 14, 2013, 11:11:06 PM
I think you guys are missing Raz's point.  He isn't talking about people with IQs in the 80-85 range, those that, if you happened to just talk to them causally, you might not notice are retarded, but people with IQs of 60 or below--as he put it "I can't dress myself" levels.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 14, 2013, 11:18:58 PM
Then that's good enough for Texas to execute.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Barrister on December 15, 2013, 12:48:04 AM
Quote from: dps on December 14, 2013, 11:11:06 PM
I think you guys are missing Raz's point.  He isn't talking about people with IQs in the 80-85 range, those that, if you happened to just talk to them causally, you might not notice are retarded, but people with IQs of 60 or below--as he put it "I can't dress myself" levels.

I don't think an IQ under 60 means "I can't dress myself".  After all my three year old can mostly dress himself.

I think you have to get to 20-30 before you're that heavily institutionalized.  I can remember dealing with a pretty seriously mentally disabled crime victim who was in the 50-60 range, but she could basically function independently in the community with just a little guidance from family.

Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Josquius on December 15, 2013, 06:12:26 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on December 13, 2013, 10:30:49 PM

Hypothesis 2: These criminals are apathetic test-takers at best, which is throwing their scores.

This.
IQ only measures test takign ability.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: DGuller on December 15, 2013, 12:54:25 PM
Quote from: Tyr on December 15, 2013, 06:12:26 AM
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on December 13, 2013, 10:30:49 PM

Hypothesis 2: These criminals are apathetic test-takers at best, which is throwing their scores.

This.
IQ only measures test takign ability.
:lol:
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 05:30:57 PM
Psychopathy is generally associated with above-average intelligence but with poor impulse control.  I think there's likely some aspect of higher intelligence being associated with greater self-control, but I don't think that it's universally true that criminals do crimanaly things because they have poor mental faculties, but can be because, in the case of psychopaths, they process certain things pretty differently. 
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Capetan Mihali on December 15, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 15, 2013, 12:48:04 AM
Quote from: dps on December 14, 2013, 11:11:06 PM
I think you guys are missing Raz's point.  He isn't talking about people with IQs in the 80-85 range, those that, if you happened to just talk to them causally, you might not notice are retarded, but people with IQs of 60 or below--as he put it "I can't dress myself" levels.

I don't think an IQ under 60 means "I can't dress myself".  After all my three year old can mostly dress himself.

I think you have to get to 20-30 before you're that heavily institutionalized.  I can remember dealing with a pretty seriously mentally disabled crime victim who was in the 50-60 range, but she could basically function independently in the community with just a little guidance from family.

I agree with Barrister.  I have had long conversations, on the phone and in person, with young clients in in the 55-65 range, and though it's clear you aren't dealing with the most sophisticated thinkers, they aren't immediately identifiable as severely low IQ (or even so much different from an ordinary teenager).

For me, the IQ scores usually come from IEP testing that their school has already done.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 05:37:37 PM
Weren't some of the more famous serial killers extremely intelligent?  Bundy was extremely clever, and reasonably well educated, and Kemper's IQ was in the 140s.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 05:38:44 PM
Dahmer's was in the 140 range too. 
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Ideologue on December 15, 2013, 05:39:29 PM
One of the two clients I ever had was at the least very dumb and probably technically retarded, and it was obvious that he was within moments of meeting him.

The other one was functional, but he also didn't seem very bright.  He did, after all, go to law school.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 06:09:09 PM
Also, any kind of traumatic brain injury that would lower a person's IQ would also likely do damage to specific impulse control and judgement centers.  I seem to remember Pinker's The Blank Slate looking at the cases of several children who all had a very specific type of brain damage in early childhood that, while leaving their IQ scores relatively unhurt, made them basically incapable of living within societal norms. 
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: CountDeMoney on December 16, 2013, 01:00:48 AM
IQ issue?  Or just Ohio?

QuoteNeighbor arrested in 9-year-old's death

(Courtesy of Wayne County/Via AP) - Jerrod Metsker, 24, of Green Township, Ohio.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Frf%2Fimage_296w%2F2010-2019%2FWashingtonPost%2F2013%2F12%2F16%2FNational-Politics%2FImages%2FGirl_Killed_Trash_Bin_-0220a.jpg&hash=bd54f2a9938d7ada4a30f1cf9e94b3e86f3b2d5a)


A neighbor was arrested Sunday in the killing of a 9-year-old Ohio girl whose body was found in a trash bin near her home after authorities and residents searched for the child.

Jerrod Metsker, 24, was arrested at his home on a murder charge about 12 hours after deputies found the body of Reann Murphy near her home at a mobile park in Smithville, about 30 miles southwest of Akron, Wayne County Sheriff Travis Hutchinson said at a news conference.

It was not clear whether Metsker had an attorney. His first court appearance is scheduled for Monday morning.

Reann was last seen Saturday night playing at the park. Hutchinson wouldn't say how the girl was killed or offer a motive. He described Metsker as a neighbor and friend of the girl's family.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Ideologue on December 16, 2013, 01:21:42 AM
I'm glad I was born with a lower jaw.
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Ed Anger on December 16, 2013, 07:14:27 AM
QuoteIQ issue?  Or just Ohio?

Ohio
Title: Re: Criminal defendents and intelligence
Post by: Eddie Teach on December 16, 2013, 07:16:36 AM
A state that was hit with the ugly stick. That's why Urban Meyer got moved there.