Not sure how I feel about this. :mellow:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1901373,00.html
Quote
Scientology Trial in France: Can a Religion Be Banned?
By Bruce Crumley / Paris Thursday, May. 28, 2009
Alain Rosenberg
As a fiercely secular nation, France has always had an awkward relationship with religious groups. Officials often find themselves struggling to strike the delicate balance between maintaining church-state separation and honoring the right of citizens to express their faith. But in the current case against the U.S.-based Church of Scientology, authorities have abandoned their usual attempts at fine-tuning religion's standing in French society — instead, they want to ban Scientology from France altogether.
In a long-awaited trial that opened this week, French prosecutors are charging Scientology's French affiliate with organized fraud. Six of Scientology's top French officials are defendants in the case that began May 25. When investigating magistrate Jean-Christophe Hullin filed the findings of a nine-year inquiry with prosecutors, he described Scientology as "first and foremost a commercial business" whose interactions with followers are defined by "a real obsession for financial remuneration." The church's bookstores and celebrity center were described by Hullin's investigation as instrumental in ensnaring psychologically fragile people "with the goal of seizing their fortune by exerting a psychological hold." (See pictures of Paris.)
If found guilty, the defendants would face fines and possible prison time. But a conviction would also allow French authorities to designate Scientology as a criminal organization conceived to fleece its followers, which would lead to the banning of the religion in France. That exceptional measure would force Scientology out of the country — or underground, along with outlawed practices like Satanism. Given that Scientology has 8 million members worldwide, that strikes some observers are extreme.
After two of the four original plaintiffs agreed to settle out of court, the case now centers on charges by two women who say they were preyed upon by the organization. On Tuesday, Aude-Claire Malton, a hotel employee who makes $1,620 a month, told the court that once she'd agreed to accept the treatment the Scientology "auditors" had prescribed to remedy her spiritual imperfections, she found herself facing a $27,000 bill within two months. The second plaintiff claims she was forced by her Scientologist boss to undergo spiritual auditing in 1998 and was fired when she refused to accept similarly expensive treatment.
Scientology officials in France have denied the allegations, saying the two women — like all Scientology members — were free to participate in or walk away from treatment and other church activities as they pleased. They and their lawyers also point to what they say is a history of official French hostility to their movement — including its inclusion in a 1996 government list of dangerous cults. As contrast to the organization's ostracism in France, Scientology leaders note that their church has the same status as a legitimate religion in Spain, Slovenia and Hungary as it has in the U.S. and Canada. "This is a trial for heresy," said the Church of Scientology's spokeswoman in France, Danièle Gounord, who added that the organization has been relentlessly "hounded" by a French establishment intolerant of the unconventional beliefs of Scientologists.
Though allegations that Scientology bleeds members dry is neither new nor limited to France, some outside observers may agree with Gounord's claims of French intolerance toward religion. France's 1996 list of dangerous cults, for example, contains 172 groups, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishnas, the Worldwide Church of God, the Unification Church and even transcendental meditationists — all of whom have largely shed their cult status in the U.S. and the U.K.
Some also charge that religious intolerance was behind France's infamous 2004 law banning students from wearing "ostensible religious objects" in public schools — a prohibition designed mainly to eliminate the small but slowly growing number of Muslim headscarves in classrooms. As it did when France issued its dangerous-cults list, the U.S. government officially responded to the law banning religious objects with a request that Paris make greater efforts to respect religious freedoms. (Read "'Veil Wars' Reveal Europe's Intolerance.")
Though Washington has stayed quiet about the current trial, France has carefully positioned the case to withstand charges that it is intruding in matters of faith. As in the five previous cases France brought against Scientologists, prosecutors are focusing on charges and evidence of the organization's manipulating members to wring money out of them — not on any of the spiritual beliefs or practices that may be involved. The first time that happened, in 1978, a Paris court found Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard guilty of vulgar fraud. In 1997, a Lyon court convicted five Scientology officials of similar charges, which were linked to the suicide of a debt-ridden church member. That verdict came with fines and a suspended prison sentence.
In this trial, which is expected to last until mid-June, prosecutors are likewise trying to portray Scientology as merely a large-scale scam while ignoring the organization's religious conceits. Now a country that constantly wrestles with the separation of church and state will find out just how far it's willing to go to keep the two apart.
Got a problem with prosecuting fraud, Timmay?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 31, 2009, 03:42:26 PM
Not sure how I feel about this. :mellow:
I'm pretty sure I feel you should eat shit and die.
Wake me when they label the Catholic church a criminal organization. Talk about preferential treatment.
Really, it's shocking that Scientology hasn't been banned in the US yet.
Wikipedia has also just banned known Scientologist IP addresses from editing their article.
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/29/wikipedia-bans-church-of-scientology/ (http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/29/wikipedia-bans-church-of-scientology/)
The Church of Scientology is a normal organization and should not be above the law.
Anyway, I hope the French use the legal precedent and burn scientologists at stake for worshipping Baphomet.
If they're going to put a religion on trial and ban it, it should be islam. Of course, they'd blow shit up, while the Scientologists will respond by making bad movies.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on May 31, 2009, 08:51:19 PM
If they're going to put a religion on trial and ban it, it should be islam.
Like the Christians never killed anybody. :D
And Battlefield Earth was so bad it was good. "Silly man-animals."
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on May 31, 2009, 08:51:19 PM
If they're going to put a religion on trial and ban it, it should be islam. Of course, they'd blow shit up, while the Scientologists will respond by making bad movies.
They are not putting a religion on trial - they are putting an organization on trial.
Scientology as a religion?. Funny becourse when they first set up shop, here in Denmark (Cogenhagen is where Scientology's european HQ is located) back in the 70's did they only call themself a trans-meditative movement, not a religion. They still dont has status as a religion here in Denmark, guess the limited taxbreaks for religious organization isnt good eoungh to be worth trying to chance the status...
Only 27,000 dollars? Their org is dirt cheap.
I suggest you guys read some Robert Kaufman, keeping in mind that this was originally published in
1972.
http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/isd/isd-4a.htm (http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/isd/isd-4a.htm)
QuoteOnly when the train pulled out of Edinburgh Station did I allow myself to think forbidden thoughts, feel the resentment and disgust. I wanted to heave their lines, their ethics, their stats up in one big ball.
Ron's bombastic voice still filled my head -- Source, who had nothing but contempt for the world and had taught me to see only danger and ugliness. Did I forget something? Say the wrong thing? Leave my briefcase unlocked, unguarded? And fear: fear of not escaping the Trap; fear of not being able to afford auditing; fear of sec checks, the soul stripped bare by the meter; fear of being down-stat, subject to ethics penalty; fear of destroying the preclear and myself; fear of the unconfrontable wog world.
Ron's followers were not spared his contempt. I had been seared by it when I split myself into a pathetic creature called "auditor-preclear."
I had hammered down my feelings, paralyzed myself with fear whenever my mind tried to tear itself free. How many times I'd shuddered as I was about to think what I shouldn't, and intercepted and aborted the thought; how many times I had said "Yes, oh yes," and felt the horror. Horror at myself, my own voice whispering, "Why, this is wrong, all wrong."
As the train carried me away from the AO and my Doubt penalty, I took out some notebook paper and started to write. I had denied myself self-expression for three months that seemed like three years. The notes I wrote were criticisms of Ron, Tech, the Sea Org.
If you criticize scientology as a scientologist, and it gets back to the orgs, they force you to go back for auditing; the more problems you claim to have, the farther they send you, and the more expensive it gets.
Quote"first and foremost a commercial business" whose interactions with followers are defined by "a real obsession for financial remuneration."
As opposed to all those other commercial businesses who couldn't give a damn about money.
Scientology, not a religion.
Sure it is a religion - it was founded my an ego-maniacal weirdo bent on fleecing people who would truly believe in a bunch of drivel.
What more is there to religion? Sure, sure, some incense, but that is optional.
Quote from: PDH on June 01, 2009, 06:19:22 PM
Sure it is a religion - it was founded my an ego-maniacal weirdo bent on fleecing people who would truly believe in a bunch of drivel.
What more is there to religion? Sure, sure, some incense, but that is optional.
It gives teenagers something to feel smug about when rejecting it.
Quote from: PDH on June 01, 2009, 06:19:22 PM
Sure it is a religion - it was founded my an ego-maniacal weirdo bent on fleecing people who would truly believe in a bunch of drivel.
What more is there to religion? Sure, sure, some incense, but that is optional.
I agree. There is nothing in what they accuse Scientology of that I cannot see being done by about 90% of the worlds' religions.
If fleecing idiots off their money is a solid ground for banishment, then Christianity and Islam have to go. And the Vaticans' possessions have to be confiscated.
(I actually wouldn't mind this, but the fact of the matter is that people do have to have a choice. And from what I check, Scientology actually fleeces from the better off and educated and not from the poorest and most ignorant; that makes them far less damaging than virtually any other religious mumbo jumbo that exists).
For that matter, I seem to remember banning a crap religion tends to have unforeseen consequences - wasn't a bunch of extremist outcast loonies who set off from England in the Mayflower to land at Plymouth Rock? Look where THAT led the world.
:rolleyes:
If they're going to ban Scientology they should ban Amway while they're at it. Both operate on more or less the same model.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2009, 11:33:40 PM
If they're going to ban Scientology they should ban Amway while they're at it. Both operate on more or less the same model.
Oh I think they'd ban the American way of life if they could.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2009, 11:33:40 PM
If they're going to ban Scientology they should ban Amway while they're at it. Both operate on more or less the same model.
I wouldn't be surprised if Amway was banned in France. Certainly, the Amway business model is banned in Poland.
Quote from: Barrister on June 01, 2009, 08:26:28 PM
:rolleyes:
Well, the medieval church, with its price lists for indulgences and "donations" for marriage annulments, was pretty much like scientology, wouldn't you agree? Now, they have moved beyond that, but perhaps in 500 years scientology will be as harmless as christianity, and just limit itself to hating gays and killing medical doctors. :)
Quote from: Martim Silva on June 01, 2009, 08:24:22 PM
For that matter, I seem to remember banning a crap religion tends to have unforeseen consequences - wasn't a bunch of extremist outcast loonies who set off from England in the Mayflower to land at Plymouth Rock? Look where THAT led the world.
To abolition of slavery and gay marriage? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2009, 11:33:40 PM
If they're going to ban Scientology they should ban Amway while they're at it. Both operate on more or less the same model.
And while they're at it, detonate Mary Kay Cosmetics. Fucking pink cars are annoying as balls.
Quote from: Martinus on June 02, 2009, 03:22:40 AMWell, the medieval church, with its price lists for indulgences and "donations" for marriage annulments, was pretty much like scientology, wouldn't you agree?
To some degree, for all the Pardoner's roaming Europe even for the Medieval Church wealth wasn't the only way to worth. Indeed in its role as a buttress of an oppressive social order the Church needed the poor not to want to get rich so money wasn't the only way to heaven.
Quote from: Martim Silva on June 01, 2009, 08:24:22 PM
For that matter, I seem to remember banning a crap religion tends to have unforeseen consequences - wasn't a bunch of extremist outcast loonies who set off from England in the Mayflower to land at Plymouth Rock? Look where THAT led the world.
I don't think the Scientologists will get very far in Xenu's space ship.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 01, 2009, 08:38:52 AM
Quote"first and foremost a commercial business" whose interactions with followers are defined by "a real obsession for financial remuneration."
As opposed to all those other commercial businesses who couldn't give a damn about money.
Like General Motors?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2009, 11:33:40 PM
If they're going to ban Scientology they should ban Amway while they're at it. Both operate on more or less the same model.
And both are equally advised against. IIRC, there's been a long-running debate on whether or not to declare Amway a pyramid scheme.
Quote from: Scipio on June 02, 2009, 05:44:14 AM
Like General Motors?
That is not a commercial business that is a pension scheme.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 01, 2009, 11:33:40 PM
If they're going to ban Scientology they should ban Amway while they're at it. Both operate on more or less the same model.
Explain.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 02, 2009, 06:39:08 AM
, there's been a long-running debate on whether or not to declare Amway a pyramid scheme.
It is a pyramid marketing scheme, but that is different from a Ponzi (financial pyramid) scheme.
As long as the operation is disclosed to participants, I don't see the problem.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 02, 2009, 04:50:34 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on June 01, 2009, 08:24:22 PM
For that matter, I seem to remember banning a crap religion tends to have unforeseen consequences - wasn't a bunch of extremist outcast loonies who set off from England in the Mayflower to land at Plymouth Rock? Look where THAT led the world.
To abolition of slavery and gay marriage? :huh:
No, the Salem Witch Trials and an excessive religious zeal that permeates large tracts of North American society, even despite the best efforts of the Founding Fathers to create a Nation based on the best precepts of Enlightenment.
Quote from: Martim Silva on June 02, 2009, 09:20:31 AM
No, the Salem Witch Trials and an excessive religious zeal that permeates large tracts of North American society, even despite the best efforts of the Founding Fathers to create a Nation based on the best precepts of Enlightenment.
It must be great to live in a world where all stereotypes are facts.
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2009, 09:25:59 AM
It must be great to live in a world where all stereotypes are facts.
The United States? :elvis: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
Quote from: Norgy on June 02, 2009, 09:49:19 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2009, 09:25:59 AM
It must be great to live in a world where all stereotypes are facts.
The United States? :elvis: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
:lol: Zing!
Quote from: Norgy on June 02, 2009, 09:49:19 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2009, 09:25:59 AM
It must be great to live in a world where all stereotypes are facts.
The United States? :elvis: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
Pfft Martim wishes.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2009, 09:08:15 AM
Explain.
Amway runs expensive seminars that purport to teach participants the proper spirit and attitude required for blockbuster sales.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 02, 2009, 01:37:15 PM
Amway runs expensive seminars that purport to teach participants the proper spirit and attitude required for blockbuster sales.
But they actually do sell and market real products. As opposed to Scientology which is just selling the right to learn how to become eligible to take even more expensive seminars.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 02, 2009, 04:31:28 PM
But they actually do sell and market real products. As opposed to Scientology which is just selling the right to learn how to become eligible to take even more expensive seminars.
Scientology is selling the right to learn how to succeed in life.
Quote from: Martim Silva on June 02, 2009, 09:20:31 AM
No, the Salem Witch Trials and an excessive religious zeal that permeates large tracts of North American society, even despite the best efforts of the Founding Fathers to create a Nation based on the best precepts of Enlightenment.
The founders(well most of them) construed "freedom of religion" to be less expansive than it is today in practice and had no problems with religious zeal in the populace.
That aside, the influence of the Pilgrims in particular will be most manifest in the region they settled: New England. The religious legacy of other parts of the country comes from people who likewise were firm believers but largely immigrated for economic reasons.
I think scientology is a clever loophole in the rules accepted throughout the Western society.
On one hand, in a capitalistic society, we have developed certain rules against fraud, which hold purveyors of various goods to a certain standard, being obliged to show that the goods they are selling actually have qualities they are advertised to have, etc. On the other hand, for historical reasons, we have tolerated religions the claims of which do not meet such standards, on the account that they operate on a largely non-profit basis.
Scientology tries to generate profit like any other corporation, but at the same time, it holds itself above the rules of the free market, when it comes to delivering the goods. I don't think this should be allowed, to be honest.
What advertised claims did you have in mind?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 03, 2009, 02:32:32 AM
What advertised claims did you have in mind?
"The right to learn how to succeed in life" to quote your own words.
Quote from: Valmy on June 02, 2009, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on June 02, 2009, 09:20:31 AM
No, the Salem Witch Trials and an excessive religious zeal that permeates large tracts of North American society, even despite the best efforts of the Founding Fathers to create a Nation based on the best precepts of Enlightenment.
It must be great to live in a world where all stereotypes are facts.
Says the guy that blames unions for everything since the 1918 Pandemic.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2009, 05:59:01 AM
Says the guy that blames unions for everything since the 1918 Pandemic.
:huh: Berkut hasn't posted in this thread yet.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on June 03, 2009, 07:33:33 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2009, 05:59:01 AM
Says the guy that blames unions for everything since the 1918 Pandemic.
:huh: Berkut hasn't posted in this thread yet.
Now I have!
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 03, 2009, 05:59:01 AM
Says the guy that blames unions for everything since the 1918 Pandemic.
I thought that was the Americans that gave us that...