I would have thought that surely even a society of paleolithic hunter gathers needed numbers to function. :unsure:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2013/10/16/piraha_cognitive_anumeracy_in_a_language_without_numbers.html
QuoteWhat Happens When a Language Has No Numbers?
By Mike Vuolo
1381941182 Pirahã people on the Maici River in Amazonas, Brazil.
Photo courtesy of Tony Muricy.
The Pirahã are an indigenous people, numbering around 700, living along the banks of the Maici River in the jungle of northwest Brazil. Their language, also called Pirahã, is so unusual in so many ways that it was profiled in 2007 in a 12,000-word piece in the New Yorker by John Colapinto, who wrote:
Unrelated to any other extant tongue, and based on just eight consonants and three vowels, Pirahã has one of the simplest sound systems known. Yet it possesses such a complex array of tones, stresses, and syllable lengths that its speakers can dispense with their vowels and consonants altogether and sing, hum, or whistle conversations.
Among Pirahã's many peculiarities is an almost complete lack of numeracy, an extremely rare linguistic trait of which there are only a few documented cases. The language contains no words at all for discrete numbers and only three that approximate some notion of quantity—hói, a "small size or amount," hoí, a "somewhat larger size or amount," and baágiso, which can mean either to "cause to come together" or "a bunch."
With no way to express exact integers, the obvious question is: How do the Pirahã count? More pragmatically, how do they ask for two of something instead of just one? The answer—according to some of the more recent research on anumeracy, published by anthropological linguist Caleb Everett in the journal Cognitive Science—suggests, almost inconceivably, that they don't.
Everett, the son of Christian missionaries turned linguists, lived on and off with the Pirahã during his early childhood. His parents, he told me, speak Pirahã as fluently as any Westerners ever have, though for a non-native speaker to master the language is a near impossibility. A couple of years ago, Everett (whose father was featured in the New Yorker piece) traveled back to the Pirahã villages to run a few very simple experiments.
For one test, he would lay down on a table a line of evenly spaced items, say batteries, and ask the Pirahã to make a second line just like the first. For another, he would show someone a line of items and then hide it from view. Again, he would ask for a second line just like the first. In both cases, no mistakes were made as long as the lines were just two or three items long. But, as Everett wrote in his paper, "The proportion of correct responses generally drops significantly for numbers exceeding 2 or 3." This was true for all tasks, including a non-visual test that involved clapping. English speakers, on the other hand, make no errors at all, except when a relatively long line of items, say seven or more, is shown quickly and then hidden. We can only count so fast, after all, but the Pirahã appear not to be counting at all—because, well, how could they? Instead, they're employing what Everett calls an "analog estimation strategy," which works well for a few items but breaks down beyond that.
If necessity is the mother of invention, then perhaps the Pirahã never needed numbers, either because precise counting is not culturally valued or because that value has a sufficient, anumeric workaround. Nothing about the Pirahã's self-contained way of life seems to require quantity recognition over three, says Everett, a fact that's not lost on outsiders, who sometimes take advantage of them when trading goods. Attempts over the years to teach number words and basic arithmetic to the Pirahã have met with little success, in large part because they're uninterested. In fact, the Pirahã have a term for all languages not their own; it translates as "crooked head," which is intended as a "clear pejorative," as Colapinto points out:
The Pirahã consider all forms of human discourse other than their own to be laughably inferior, and they are unique among Amazonian peoples in remaining monolingual.
In our increasingly data-driven culture, where we reincarnate ourselves more and more as spreadsheets, anumeracy is unthinkable. Many fear, amid the "advanced stats" revolution in all aspects of life, that what it means to be and feel human is forever changing, and not for the better. It's perhaps comforting to know, then, that while we're busy charting our heart rate and measuring our intake and poring over the wins above replacement values for our fantasy league, the Pirahã, immune to the relentless tyranny of numbers, will simply enjoy the game.
It doesn't follow that they're cognitively unable to count (SAPIR-WHORF LIVES!). They're not immune, just indifferent surely :mellow:
I'm a bit surprised that they were struggling with more than 3 items. IIRC, we're normally able to tell instinctively up to 5 items at a glance, and more than that requiring counting.
Quote from: Sheilbh on October 17, 2013, 11:44:32 PM
It doesn't follow that they're cognitively unable to count (SAPIR-WHORF LIVES!). They're not immune, just indifferent surely :mellow:
Well, they're not biologically incapable of course, however from what's written they seem to be so culturally apathetic to the concept that they are practically incapable of it.
Can they strip a horse to the skeleton in 5 minutes?
Yeah, I remember reading about Everett's claims. I'm quite skeptical, since he makes all sorts of off the wall claims and he's really the only source.
Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.
Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. :showoff:
lulz, piranhas.
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 07:42:22 AM
Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.
Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. :showoff:
I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity :hmm:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 18, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 07:42:22 AM
Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.
Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. :showoff:
I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity :hmm:
three equals one. Seems to fit into their mathematical thinking nicely, actually :D
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2013, 06:49:46 AM
Yeah, I remember reading about Everett's claims. I'm quite skeptical, since he makes all sorts of off the wall claims and he's really the only source.
I suspect much of this falls within the domain of "telling the outsiders a good yarn creates revenues" - a well-known issue in anthropology. :D
Quote from: HVC on October 18, 2013, 08:12:48 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 18, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity :hmm:
three equals one. Seems to fit into their mathematical thinking nicely, actually :D
It's trying to convince them to double down on 11 that's the real bitch.
This was interesting about ten years ago when I first read about the Piraha and Everett. I don't think he's worked there since that time so not sure why this is worthy of note at this date.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 18, 2013, 08:30:51 AM
This was interesting about ten years ago when I first read about the Piraha and Everett. I don't think he's worked there since that time so not sure why this is worthy of note at this date.
Some of these guys are being 'head-hunted' by major banks to help solve the financial crisis.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 18, 2013, 08:30:51 AM
This was interesting about ten years ago when I first read about the Piraha and Everett. I don't think he's worked there since that time so not sure why this is worthy of note at this date.
What you are saying is that you are old?
I can easily imagine how a society can get by without numbers.
I mean thinking about it- how often do you use numbers in every day speech? Thinking about upon it I really don't think its as common as you may first think. And that's our modern number reliant society, not a primitive group who have little need for numbers.
Quote from: Malthus on October 18, 2013, 08:23:00 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2013, 06:49:46 AM
Yeah, I remember reading about Everett's claims. I'm quite skeptical, since he makes all sorts of off the wall claims and he's really the only source.
I suspect much of this falls within the domain of "telling the outsiders a good yarn creates revenues" - a well-known issue in anthropology. :D
Yeah, there is probably a lot of that. A lot of it sounds like traveler tales. Some of it might be that he became enamored with a foreign culture and ascribed all sorts of unique things to them. For instance he claimed that their language lacks the ability to make recursive statements. The ability to make recursive statements is considered a universal of human language. So it's an extraordinary claim and as far as I know, Everett is the only one making it.
:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:
@ Tyr
"How many figures are on your right hand?"
"Fuck if I know!"
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2013, 09:08:20 AM
I can easily imagine how a society can get by without numbers.
I mean thinking about it- how often do you use numbers in every day speech? Thinking about upon it I really don't think its as common as you may first think. And that's our modern number reliant society, not a primitive group who have little need for numbers.
Hard to conduct much trade (even with a barter system) without using numbers.
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2013, 09:08:20 AM
I can easily imagine how a society can get by without numbers.
I mean thinking about it- how often do you use numbers in every day speech?
All the time. At work, school, at home, and out running errands.
QuoteThinking about upon it I really don't think its as common as you may first think.
Pretty significant parts of my life revolve around doing things at certain dates and times and carefully budgeting money. And that is not even mentioning pretty common topics of discussion like the weather. I have a real hard time imagining even the 18th century version of my culture functioning very well without numbers. Even topics of social conversation.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 18, 2013, 08:30:51 AM
This was interesting about ten years ago when I first read about the Piraha and Everett. I don't think he's worked there since that time so not sure why this is worthy of note at this date.
As you know, you post on Languish with the useless Timmay threads you have, not the useless Timmay threads you might want or wish to have at a later time.
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2013, 09:08:20 AM
I can easily imagine how a society can get by without numbers.
I mean thinking about it- how often do you use numbers in every day speech? Thinking about upon it I really don't think its as common as you may first think. And that's our modern number reliant society, not a primitive group who have little need for numbers.
Every time you look at a clock, use a phone and pay a bill you're using numbers. At our job we have to count our students, count the worksheets, give them grades, etc.
Never mind all that complicated number counting.
How many shoes & socks do you put on in the morning?
Key word: speech.
I check the time, count money and read prices every day of course but it's not too common that I actually have to say a number (well, except one/an).
In a world without clocks and money....even if they had numbers far more common would be "Look at those monkeys over there!" rather than "Look at those five monkeys over there!"
Sigh.
Hopefully he's on the sauce.
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2013, 09:47:09 AM
Key word: speech.
I check the time, count money and read prices every day of course but it's not too common that I actually have to say a number (well, except one/an).
In a world without clocks and money....even if they had numbers far more common would be "Look at those monkeys over there!" rather than "Look at those five monkeys over there!"
But speech is not just doing it out loud, it's thinking.
You are learning japanese, no? Do you think in Japanse in your head or do you translate from english all the time?
Quote from: mongers on October 18, 2013, 08:53:23 AM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 18, 2013, 08:30:51 AM
This was interesting about ten years ago when I first read about the Piraha and Everett. I don't think he's worked there since that time so not sure why this is worthy of note at this date.
Some of these guys are being 'head-hunted' by major banks to help solve the financial crisis.
The banks could use a bit of "head-hunting" ... :menace:
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2013, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Malthus on October 18, 2013, 08:23:00 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 18, 2013, 06:49:46 AM
Yeah, I remember reading about Everett's claims. I'm quite skeptical, since he makes all sorts of off the wall claims and he's really the only source.
I suspect much of this falls within the domain of "telling the outsiders a good yarn creates revenues" - a well-known issue in anthropology. :D
Yeah, there is probably a lot of that. A lot of it sounds like traveler tales. Some of it might be that he became enamored with a foreign culture and ascribed all sorts of unique things to them. For instance he claimed that their language lacks the ability to make recursive statements. The ability to make recursive statements is considered a universal of human language. So it's an extraordinary claim and as far as I know, Everett is the only one making it.
Sometimes, the claim is made with the express intention of attracting benefits. The most famous example of that was the tribe in the Phillipines that alleged to have had no contact whatsoever with the outside world - they got their own national park out of it (later, turned out that was their goal - a tribe that had 'nothing interesting whatsoever about them' clearly does not rate their own national park, and they knew it).
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 18, 2013, 09:54:27 AM
But speech is not just doing it out loud, it's thinking.
True.
Reading however isn't something that primitive societies do much of, so the bombardment with numbers that people in the modern world get won't really be an issue for them, communication is purely spoken (well, and gesture).
And I stand by what I said, numbers as words aren't as commonly spoken as one may initially think (unless your job quite specifically involves if of course. No avoiding it for those poor cashiers). IIRC only one and two (perhaps three, I don't think so though) are amongst the top 100 most common words.
Quote
You are learning japanese, no? Do you think in Japanse in your head or do you translate from english all the time?
I think I think in Japanese. It depends.
@Mal The Tasaday. :cool:
But anyway, yeah, I find it impossible to believe these guys can't at least count to ten and wouldn't have words for 1-10.
:hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on October 18, 2013, 10:06:40 AM
@Mal The Tasaday. :cool:
But anyway, yeah, I find it impossible to believe these guys can't at least count to ten and wouldn't have words for 1-10.
The scientific opinion of the Kentuckian is noted.
Quote from: Tyr on October 18, 2013, 10:06:00 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 18, 2013, 09:54:27 AM
But speech is not just doing it out loud, it's thinking.
True.
Reading however isn't something that primitive societies do much of, so the bombardment with numbers that people in the modern world get won't really be an issue for them, communication is purely spoken (well, and gesture).
And I stand by what I said, numbers as words aren't as commonly spoken as one may initially think (unless your job quite specifically involves if of course. No avoiding it for those poor cashiers). IIRC only one and two (perhaps three, I don't think so though) are amongst the top 100 most common words.
Quote
You are learning japanese, no? Do you think in Japanse in your head or do you translate from english all the time?
I think I think in Japanese. It depends.
I agree with out, that tribe can totally live without numbers.
But We can't.
Quote from: Caliga on October 18, 2013, 10:06:40 AM
@Mal The Tasaday. :cool:
But anyway, yeah, I find it impossible to believe these guys can't at least count to ten and wouldn't have words for 1-10.
Thanks! :)
I assume this is something similar, though of course, I have no proof of it.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on October 18, 2013, 08:30:51 AM
This was interesting about ten years ago when I first read about the Piraha and Everett. I don't think he's worked there since that time so not sure why this is worthy of note at this date.
It is a Slate article, why would we think they would have something newsworthy to say?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 18, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 07:42:22 AM
Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.
Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. :showoff:
I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity :hmm:
The Piraha actually asked him nicely to teach them how to count since they suspected they were getting ripped off by the Brazilian river boat traders that showed up occaisonally to trade moonshine for Brazil nuts and other jungle produce. So he held a class every day for months, where he'd try to teach them how to count from 1 to 10 in Portugese. Was a total failure and he gave up after a few months with not a single Piraha being able to count 1, 2, 3 and "get" it. The description in the book is hilarious.
And his attempt at conversion was the culmination of all these years of living with the Piraha and painstakingly learning their language. He managed to translate the gospel of Mark into Piraha, they listened to it, shrugged their shoulders and went on with their lives. When pressed, they kindly but firmly told Everett that they wanted to continue their ways, liked fucking different women, etc. Also, since Everett had not personally met Jesus, nor had anyone of his friends or family, by Everett's own admission, they regarded him as a somewhat of a simpleton, bordering on full retard.
Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 03:22:21 PM
Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.
Ah Christian love. It is a beautiful thing man.
You'd think at the very least they'd want to keep track of things like how many kids they had, how many went out on a hunting party, etc.
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 03:22:21 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 18, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 07:42:22 AM
Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.
Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. :showoff:
I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity :hmm:
The Piraha actually asked him nicely to teach them how to count since they suspected they were getting ripped off by the Brazilian river boat traders that showed up occaisonally to trade moonshine for Brazil nuts and other jungle produce. So he held a class every day for months, where he'd try to teach them how to count from 1 to 10 in Portugese. Was a total failure and he gave up after a few months with not a single Piraha being able to count 1, 2, 3 and "get" it. The description in the book is hilarious.
And his attempt at conversion was the culmination of all these years of living with the Piraha and painstakingly learning their language. He managed to translate the gospel of Mark into Piraha, they listened to it, shrugged their shoulders and went on with their lives. When pressed, they kindly but firmly told Everett that they wanted to continue their ways, liked fucking different women, etc. Also, since Everett had not personally met Jesus, nor had anyone of his friends or family, by Everett's own admission, they regarded him as a somewhat of a simpleton, bordering on full retard.
Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.
Yes, he was quite enamored with them, which calls his neutrality into question somewhat.
Quote from: dps on October 18, 2013, 05:11:52 PM
You'd think at the very least they'd want to keep track of things like how many kids they had, how many went out on a hunting party, etc.
Not having numbers was one of the minor quirks of their language.
The language has just eight consonants and three vowels. Most of the heavy lifting beyond those features is done by a complex array of tones, stresses and syllable lengths, so much so that Piraha speakers can just outright skip vowels and consonants altogether and just "talk" with humming, singing and whistling. Very useful when hunting I'd imagine.
The language has no unique words for color, only "blood like" for red, etc.
Here's a sample of the language. Very cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHv3-U9VPAs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHv3-U9VPAs)
CountDeMoney's dream: a society built solely upon the liberal arts.
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 03:22:21 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 18, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
Quote from: Legbiter on October 18, 2013, 07:42:22 AM
Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.
Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. :showoff:
I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity :hmm:
The Piraha actually asked him nicely to teach them how to count since they suspected they were getting ripped off by the Brazilian river boat traders that showed up occaisonally to trade moonshine for Brazil nuts and other jungle produce. So he held a class every day for months, where he'd try to teach them how to count from 1 to 10 in Portugese. Was a total failure and he gave up after a few months with not a single Piraha being able to count 1, 2, 3 and "get" it. The description in the book is hilarious.
And his attempt at conversion was the culmination of all these years of living with the Piraha and painstakingly learning their language. He managed to translate the gospel of Mark into Piraha, they listened to it, shrugged their shoulders and went on with their lives. When pressed, they kindly but firmly told Everett that they wanted to continue their ways, liked fucking different women, etc. Also, since Everett had not personally met Jesus, nor had anyone of his friends or family, by Everett's own admission, they regarded him as a somewhat of a simpleton, bordering on full retard.
Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.
Sounds like the book is a good read; though perhaps should be treated with mild scepticism at times.
My books on nukes should be treated with mild disinfectant at times.