The Piraha: Cognitive Anumeracy in a Language Without Numbers

[Josquius]

But speech is not just doing it out loud, it's thinking.

True.
Reading however isn't something that primitive societies do much of, so the bombardment with numbers that people in the modern world get won't really be an issue for them, communication is purely spoken (well, and gesture).
And I stand by what I said, numbers as words aren't as commonly spoken as one may initially think (unless your job quite specifically involves if of course. No avoiding it for those poor cashiers). IIRC only one and two (perhaps three, I don't think so though) are amongst the top 100 most common words.

You are learning japanese, no? Do you think in Japanse in your head or do you translate from english all the time?

I think I think in Japanese. It depends.

[Caliga]

@Mal The Tasaday.

But anyway, yeah, I find it impossible to believe these guys can't at least count to ten and wouldn't have words for 1-10.

[lustindarkness]

 

[The Brain]

@Mal The Tasaday.

But anyway, yeah, I find it impossible to believe these guys can't at least count to ten and wouldn't have words for 1-10.

The scientific opinion of the Kentuckian is noted.

[Grey Fox]

But speech is not just doing it out loud, it's thinking.

True.
Reading however isn't something that primitive societies do much of, so the bombardment with numbers that people in the modern world get won't really be an issue for them, communication is purely spoken (well, and gesture).
And I stand by what I said, numbers as words aren't as commonly spoken as one may initially think (unless your job quite specifically involves if of course. No avoiding it for those poor cashiers). IIRC only one and two (perhaps three, I don't think so though) are amongst the top 100 most common words.

You are learning japanese, no? Do you think in Japanse in your head or do you translate from english all the time?

I think I think in Japanese. It depends.

I agree with out, that tribe can totally live without numbers.

But We can't.

[Malthus]

@Mal The Tasaday.

But anyway, yeah, I find it impossible to believe these guys can't at least count to ten and wouldn't have words for 1-10.

Thanks! 

I assume this is something similar, though of course, I have no proof of it.

[garbon]

This was interesting about ten years ago when I first read about the Piraha and Everett. I don't think he's worked there since that time so not sure why this is worthy of note at this date.

It is a Slate article, why would we think they would have something newsworthy to say?

[Legbiter]

Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.

Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. 

I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity 

The Piraha actually asked him nicely to teach them how to count since they suspected they were getting ripped off by the Brazilian river boat traders that showed up occaisonally to trade moonshine for Brazil nuts and other jungle produce. So he held a class every day for months, where he'd try to teach them how to count from 1 to 10 in Portugese. Was a total failure and he gave up after a few months with not a single Piraha being able to count 1, 2, 3 and "get" it. The description in the book is hilarious.

And his attempt at conversion was the culmination of all these years of living with the Piraha and painstakingly learning their language. He managed to translate the gospel of Mark into Piraha, they listened to it, shrugged their shoulders and went on with their lives. When pressed, they kindly but firmly told Everett that they wanted to continue their ways, liked fucking different women, etc. Also, since Everett had not personally met Jesus, nor had anyone of his friends or family, by Everett's own admission, they regarded him as a somewhat of a simpleton, bordering on full retard.

Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.

[Valmy]

Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.

Ah Christian love.  It is a beautiful thing man.

[dps]

You'd think at the very least they'd want to keep track of things like how many kids they had, how many went out on a hunting party, etc.

[Razgovory]

Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.

Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. 

I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity 

The Piraha actually asked him nicely to teach them how to count since they suspected they were getting ripped off by the Brazilian river boat traders that showed up occaisonally to trade moonshine for Brazil nuts and other jungle produce. So he held a class every day for months, where he'd try to teach them how to count from 1 to 10 in Portugese. Was a total failure and he gave up after a few months with not a single Piraha being able to count 1, 2, 3 and "get" it. The description in the book is hilarious.

And his attempt at conversion was the culmination of all these years of living with the Piraha and painstakingly learning their language. He managed to translate the gospel of Mark into Piraha, they listened to it, shrugged their shoulders and went on with their lives. When pressed, they kindly but firmly told Everett that they wanted to continue their ways, liked fucking different women, etc. Also, since Everett had not personally met Jesus, nor had anyone of his friends or family, by Everett's own admission, they regarded him as a somewhat of a simpleton, bordering on full retard.

Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.

Yes, he was quite enamored with them, which calls his neutrality into question somewhat.

[Legbiter]

You'd think at the very least they'd want to keep track of things like how many kids they had, how many went out on a hunting party, etc.

Not having numbers was one of the minor quirks of their language.

The language has just eight consonants and three vowels. Most of the heavy lifting beyond those features is done by a complex array of tones, stresses and syllable lengths, so much so that Piraha speakers can just outright skip vowels and consonants altogether and just "talk" with humming, singing and whistling. Very useful when hunting I'd imagine.

The language has no unique words for color, only "blood like" for red, etc.

Here's a sample of the language. Very cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHv3-U9VPAs

[Ideologue]

CountDeMoney's dream: a society built solely upon the liberal arts.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Why'd you need numbers per se. you have say, an animal, animals if you've hunted more than one and plenty to eat thereafter. These guys live by spearing fish and forest animals so it's not strictly necessary to have numbers like we do.

Also, Everett's an interesting man, went to the Piraha to tell them about Jesus years ago but they ended up converting him away from Christianity. 

I would imagine the conversion attempt foundered on the failure of the Piraha to understand the Holy Trinity 

The Piraha actually asked him nicely to teach them how to count since they suspected they were getting ripped off by the Brazilian river boat traders that showed up occaisonally to trade moonshine for Brazil nuts and other jungle produce. So he held a class every day for months, where he'd try to teach them how to count from 1 to 10 in Portugese. Was a total failure and he gave up after a few months with not a single Piraha being able to count 1, 2, 3 and "get" it. The description in the book is hilarious.

And his attempt at conversion was the culmination of all these years of living with the Piraha and painstakingly learning their language. He managed to translate the gospel of Mark into Piraha, they listened to it, shrugged their shoulders and went on with their lives. When pressed, they kindly but firmly told Everett that they wanted to continue their ways, liked fucking different women, etc. Also, since Everett had not personally met Jesus, nor had anyone of his friends or family, by Everett's own admission, they regarded him as a somewhat of a simpleton, bordering on full retard.

Everett also came to believe that the Piraha already were living the good life (in every sense of that word) and did not need to be "saved". When he told his wife he'd lost his faith, the cunt divorced him and it's only recently that he's mended fences with his kids because of his crisis of faith.

Sounds like the book is a good read; though perhaps should be treated with mild scepticism at times.

[The Brain]

My books on nukes should be treated with mild disinfectant at times.