When asked about the massive cases of child abuse uncovered in Ireland, he lamented them in one (one!) phrase, proceeded to announce than in any case abortion was far worse and then delivered a stirring tirade on the 40.000.000 'children' 'murdered' in abortions in Spain in 23 years of very limited abortion (only three cases allowed under the law: rape, serious danger for the mother, grave fetus malformations)
Nuff said.
In english
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0529/1224247669311.html
In spanish
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/Canizares/ministro/Papa/ve/peor/abortar/abusar/ninos/elpepusoc/20090529elpepisoc_4/Tes
:bleeding: was made for this.
Damn anti-abortion morons.
:D The best way to propagandize against some groups is to give them a microphone.
Quoteonly three cases allowed under the law: rape, serious danger for the mother, grave fetus malformations
Wow. I would think even most pro-lifers would grudgingly agree that abortion is probably the lesser of evils in these scenarios.
40,000,000? You sure have alot of rapes in Spain.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 08:37:12 AM
Quoteonly three cases allowed under the law: rape, serious danger for the mother, grave fetus malformations
Wow. I would think even most pro-lifers would grudgingly agree that abortion is probably the lesser of evils in these scenarios.
You didn't watch the Presidential debates last year, did you?
At about 35 seconds in, McCain describes "health of the mother" as "the extreme pro-abortion position."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGZOyxfiNoU
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 09:12:26 AM
At about 35 seconds in, McCain describes "health of the mother" as "the extreme pro-abortion position."
That wasn't exactly what he was saying. He was saying the pro-abortion crowd takes the principal of "health of the mother" to mean anything.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:15:58 AM
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 09:12:26 AM
At about 35 seconds in, McCain describes "health of the mother" as "the extreme pro-abortion position."
That wasn't exactly what he was saying. He was saying the pro-abortion crowd takes the principal of "health of the mother" to mean anything.
Still, it's nice to know that ulmont isn't to be trusted.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:15:58 AM
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 09:12:26 AM
At about 35 seconds in, McCain describes "health of the mother" as "the extreme pro-abortion position."
That wasn't exactly what he was saying. He was saying the pro-abortion crowd takes the principal of "health of the mother" to mean anything.
Really. You're going to listen to that quote and say McCain does not describe "health of the mother" as "the extreme pro-abortion position"? Here, let me give you the transcript:
Quote from: McCainThat's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, "health."
http://www.wkrg.com/news/article/mccain_obama_last_debate_transcript_page_2/20027/
Quote from: Neil on May 29, 2009, 09:20:08 AM
Still, it's nice to know that ulmont isn't to be trusted.
It is true that I am not ethnically Albertan.
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 09:21:18 AM
Really. You're going to listen to that quote and say McCain does not describe "health of the mother" as "the extreme pro-abortion position"? Here, let me give you the transcript:
Well he doesn't really address the question. Like most Presidential debates he quickly hurries past the idea and goes on to talk about what he really wants to talk about: adoption.
I have a hard time believing he really believes abortion is allowed if the health of the mother is at stake is really that extreme position. Rather he seems to be saying that idea has been hijacked to basically allow all abortions. But even if he really was saying that he probably is only saying the party line and wouldn't really outlaw abortions in the event the life or health of the mother is at stake if he had the power to do so.
But who knows?
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 09:35:33 AM
But who knows?
I do, but only because Neil has allowed this. Praise Alberta, the Wyoming of the north.
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 09:21:44 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 29, 2009, 09:20:08 AM
Still, it's nice to know that ulmont isn't to be trusted.
It is true that I am not ethnically Albertan.
Indeed. You're also an agent of Obamania, and an enemy of the American people.
The annoying part about this is that it is linked to clerical sex abuse, which makes it more than a trifle odd. It is sort of an attempt at a tu quoque against secular society, but to what end?
However, as a matter of fact, if one was of the opinion that abortion = murder, then the comparison is clearly a true statement: murder is worse that abuse.
I'm not of the opinion that abortion is murder myself.
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2009, 09:57:21 AM
I'm not of the opinion that abortion is murder myself.
Abortion clearly kills something and sometimes killing is necessary unfortunately. But it is not murder until a certain arbitrary point in the pregnancy we struggly to define :P
Quote from: Alatriste on May 29, 2009, 07:56:25 AM
When asked about the massive cases of child abuse uncovered in Ireland, he lamented them in one (one!) phrase, proceeded to announce than in any case abortion was far worse and then delivered a stirring tirade on the 40.000.000 'children' 'murdered' in abortions in Spain in 23 years of very limited abortion (only three cases allowed under the law: rape, serious danger for the mother, grave fetus malformations)
If you have 40 million abortions in 23 years in a country like Spain, then obviously abortion is not that limited in practice. Either the limitations are not followed in practice, or "serious danger for the mother" is interpreted very loosely.
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2009, 10:36:45 AM
If you have 40 million abortions in 23 years in a country like Spain, then obviously abortion is not that limited in practice.
Maybe they're including the withdrawal method.
Even the Lord facepalms at this... :rolleyes:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F54%2FJesus_facepalm.jpg&hash=f3e6c03c8740223fdd5be17b4ec362dbbb56e4be)
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2009, 10:36:45 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 29, 2009, 07:56:25 AM
When asked about the massive cases of child abuse uncovered in Ireland, he lamented them in one (one!) phrase, proceeded to announce than in any case abortion was far worse and then delivered a stirring tirade on the 40.000.000 'children' 'murdered' in abortions in Spain in 23 years of very limited abortion (only three cases allowed under the law: rape, serious danger for the mother, grave fetus malformations)
If you have 40 million abortions in 23 years in a country like Spain, then obviously abortion is not that limited in practice. Either the limitations are not followed in practice, or "serious danger for the mother" is interpreted very loosely.
That is what McCain was referring to - that "harm to the mother" ends up being so loosely defined that it becomes meaningless. That is ok with me since I don't support the government right to tell women what they can and cannot do with their body anyway, but I can certainly see why that "restriction" would be galling to the pro-life crowd.
It is an emotioanl fig leaf used to allow unrestricted abortion under the guise of a restriction that no politician can safely touch without being immediately mis-characterized. As ulmont so kindly demonstrated.
Quote from: Berkut on May 29, 2009, 12:19:47 PM
It is an emotioanl fig leaf used to allow unrestricted abortion under the guise of a restriction that no politician can safely touch without being immediately mis-characterized. As ulmont so kindly demonstrated.
Accurately quoting McCain != mischaracterization.
Quote from: Alatriste on May 29, 2009, 07:56:25 AM
the 40.000.000 'children' 'murdered' in abortions in Spain in 23 years of very limited abortion
The 40 million number looks very suspicious to me. The United States has run somewhere from 1.6 to 1.2 million abortions annually since 1976.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/16/AR2008011603624.html
For Spain to have 40 million abortions in 23 years, they would have to have a higher absolute abortion rate than the US with less than 1/6 of the population.
And, doing more searching, I see it is bullshit. In 1995, 49,000 Spanish abortions. In 2004, 85,000. Even the higher number would yield less than 2 million abortions in 23 years.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/dec/28/spain.mainsection
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 12:28:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 29, 2009, 12:19:47 PM
It is an emotioanl fig leaf used to allow unrestricted abortion under the guise of a restriction that no politician can safely touch without being immediately mis-characterized. As ulmont so kindly demonstrated.
Accurately quoting McCain != mischaracterization.
Not true. Accurately quoting someone out of context is mischaracterization. I don't remember the context of McCain's quote, but given that he's generally not stupid, he most likely did mean that health exception can be vague and extremely exploitable.
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 12:32:30 PM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 29, 2009, 07:56:25 AM
the 40.000.000 'children' 'murdered' in abortions in Spain in 23 years of very limited abortion
The 40 million number looks very suspicious to me. The United States has run somewhere from 1.6 to 1.2 million abortions annually since 1976.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/16/AR2008011603624.html
For Spain to have 40 million abortions in 23 years, they would have to have a higher absolute abortion rate than the US with less than 1/6 of the population.
And, doing more searching, I see it is bullshit. In 1995, 49,000 Spanish abortions. In 2004, 85,000. Even the higher number would yield less than 2 million abortions in 23 years.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/dec/28/spain.mainsection
Well, we were going by Alatriste's numbers. However, US abortion rate is nowhere near the maximum it can be. In Easter Europe and China, abortion rate is many times higher than that in US.
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2009, 12:33:04 PM
Accurately quoting someone out of context is mischaracterization.
I'm not sure how you can quote someone out of context by linking to a full video clip and a transcript of their remarks.
Easter Europe?
Quote from: The Brain on May 29, 2009, 12:44:38 PM
Easter Europe?
It's a countrypopulated by bunnies and whose main export is chocolate.
Quote from: HVC on May 29, 2009, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 29, 2009, 12:44:38 PM
Easter Europe?
It's a countrypopulated by bunnies and whose main export is chocolate.
My main export is chocolate.
Quote from: Drakken on May 29, 2009, 12:16:22 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F54%2FJesus_facepalm.jpg&hash=f3e6c03c8740223fdd5be17b4ec362dbbb56e4be)
Would make a good campaign picture for anti-migraine medicine.
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 12:35:12 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2009, 12:33:04 PM
Accurately quoting someone out of context is mischaracterization.
I'm not sure how you can quote someone out of context by linking to a full video clip and a transcript of their remarks.
It does make it harder, and yet you managed it anyway. Kudos!
I guess we can safely assume that you knew you were mis-characterizing his position anyway.
Quote from: ulmont on May 29, 2009, 09:21:18 AM
Really. You're going to listen to that quote and say McCain does not describe "health of the mother" as "the extreme pro-abortion position"? Here, let me give you the transcript:
Quote from: McCainThat's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, "health."
http://www.wkrg.com/news/article/mccain_obama_last_debate_transcript_page_2/20027/
Again, quote mining doesn't really do you any good when everyone can see exactly what McCain is saying. It isn't hard to take a sentence out of context and twist its meaning to suit one's intellectually dishonest position, but everyone can see you doing it.
QuoteJust again, the example of the eloquence of Sen. Obama. He's health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything.
That's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, "health."
So, the extreme position isn't the health of the mother, it is the "quote" health of the mother, which has been, according to McCain, stretched to mean most anything.
He is probably right about the stretching. Not that that bothers me any, as I support abortion pretty much on demand, which is more extreme than McCain's "extreme."
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2009, 10:36:45 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 29, 2009, 07:56:25 AM
When asked about the massive cases of child abuse uncovered in Ireland, he lamented them in one (one!) phrase, proceeded to announce than in any case abortion was far worse and then delivered a stirring tirade on the 40.000.000 'children' 'murdered' in abortions in Spain in 23 years of very limited abortion (only three cases allowed under the law: rape, serious danger for the mother, grave fetus malformations)
If you have 40 million abortions in 23 years in a country like Spain, then obviously abortion is not that limited in practice. Either the limitations are not followed in practice, or "serious danger for the mother" is interpreted very loosely.
We don't have so many abortions, I thought it would be self-evident... there are only about 40,000,000 native Spaniards plus roughly 5,5-6 millions inmigrants... cardinal Cañizares is saying that without abortion Spain would be the most populated country in Europe with over 85,000,000 inhabitants about 60% of them under 23 years old... that 40,000,000 number would equal some 2,000,000 abortions each year (and at least 75-80% of all pregnancies ending in abortion).
In short, it is sheer madness!
Quote from: Alatriste on May 29, 2009, 02:16:01 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 29, 2009, 10:36:45 AM
Quote from: Alatriste on May 29, 2009, 07:56:25 AM
When asked about the massive cases of child abuse uncovered in Ireland, he lamented them in one (one!) phrase, proceeded to announce than in any case abortion was far worse and then delivered a stirring tirade on the 40.000.000 'children' 'murdered' in abortions in Spain in 23 years of very limited abortion (only three cases allowed under the law: rape, serious danger for the mother, grave fetus malformations)
If you have 40 million abortions in 23 years in a country like Spain, then obviously abortion is not that limited in practice. Either the limitations are not followed in practice, or "serious danger for the mother" is interpreted very loosely.
We don't have so many abortions, I thought it would be self-evident... there are only about 40,000,000 native Spaniards plus roughly 5,5-6 millions inmigrants... cardinal Cañizares is saying that without abortion Spain would be the most populated country in Europe with over 85,000,000 inhabitants about 60% of them under 23 years old... that 40,000,000 number would equal some 2,000,000 abortions each year (and at least 75-80% of all pregnancies ending in abortion).
In short, it is sheer madness!
Thank goodness for abortion. Otherwise, we'd be knee-deep in Spaniards in no time. :D
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2009, 02:41:28 PM
Thank goodness for abortion. Otherwise, we'd be knee-deep in Spaniards in no time. :D
Bullfighting would soon be the most popular sport in the world.
Quote from: Valmy on May 29, 2009, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 29, 2009, 02:41:28 PM
Thank goodness for abortion. Otherwise, we'd be knee-deep in Spaniards in no time. :D
Bullfighting would soon be the most popular sport in the world.
Though sadly a terribly inefficient means to dispose of the excess numbers of Spaniards.
Quote from: grumbler on May 29, 2009, 02:01:00 PM
So, the extreme position isn't the health of the mother, it is the "quote" health of the mother, which has been, according to McCain, stretched to mean most anything.
Agreed that was the gist of what McCain meant to say.
But the issue is more complicated than that, because the full context of that comment was a question about appointment of Supreme Court justices and the viability of Roe. The last Supreme Court decision on Roe was Gonzales v. Carhart, which upheld a federal ban on partial birth abortion on a 5-4 vote. One of the critical issues at dispute in that case was the health exception - the Court had previously held that a ban without an effective health exception was unaccpetable under Roe. The statute at issue in Gonzales v. Carhart did not have a health exception per se, although it did have a provision that a doctor accused of violating the (criminal) prohibition could seek a State Medical Board hearing - and if the hearing concluded that the physician's conduct was "necessary to save the life of the mother" - that would constitute a valid defense to the crime.
The problem of course is that the physician has to make the medical decision before the fact, and then hope that a State Medical Board endorses his call after the fact. If the physician turns out to have been wrong, or even if a majority of the state medical boards hearing panel just happens to disagree with his assessement ex post, he would then find himself facing up to 2 years in jail. The petitioner and dissent both argued -- very persuasively in my view -- that this setup eviscerates the health exception because even a doctor who in good faith believes there is a serious health risk acts very much at his or her peril in peforming the partial birth abortion - and the safest course is just not to do it. The supposed justification for doing this on the part of the proponents of the legislation was the idea that unless kept in careful check, doctors would evade the partial birth ban by inventing spurious health concerns.
In this context, McCain's sneering comments implying abuse of the health exception take on a more sinister light, because they reflect and echo a legislative strategy adopted by the anti-abortion movement that in my view is extremely dangerous and worrisome.
In the Kreutzer Sonata, there is the theory that the world won't end violently, but that god intends for us to be abstinent, and when the we finally achieve the universal abstinent state man will quietly die out.
Maybe Tolstoy was on to something, only that god intends for us to have abortions. And now Spain with its abortion clinics in hyperdrive is truly the land of the divine.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 29, 2009, 07:58:17 PM
In the Kreutzer Sonata, there is the theory that the world won't end violently, but that god intends for us to be abstinent, and when the we finally achieve the universal abstinent state man will quietly die out.
Maybe Tolstoy was on to something, only that god intends for us to have abortions. And now Spain with its abortion clinics in hyperdrive is truly the land of the divine.
For one of those gnostics, the visible universe was an illusion or (more precisely) a sophism. Mirrors and fatherhood are abominable because they multiply and disseminate that universe-Tlon, Uqbar, orbis Tertius