I am not the biggest fan of David Gaider's writing but I thought this was a great talk about the industry:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/194571/Video_Sexism_and_sexuality_in_games.php
I watched it and then reflected a bit on what you said about the rapey/abortiony stuff you were mentioning earlier. Did you see this and what did you think?
Actually watching the entire thing. It's kinda eye opening.
Executive summary?
Wow, an industry that produces products primarily for the adolescent male is run like an industry that produces products primarily for the adolescent male. Color me shocked as shit.
I'm getting tired of treated as prepubescent boy sometimes.
Then work on getting that other testicle descended already. It's not gonna drop on its own.
Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2013, 06:41:03 PM
Executive summary?
He wants affirmative action for video game characters.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 20, 2013, 06:54:22 PM
Then work on getting that other testicle descended already. It's not gonna drop on its own.
Hey I fixed that. Took a couple hours and pliers but I got that shit sorted out.
I've been playing digital games for well over 20 years now, and I can say that I'm thoroughly bored by an endless parade of scantily clad, improbably proportioned female characters that are shallow as a puddle in the street and just work with gender stereotypes/sex hormones.
Also, I'm tired of "shooting people in the face" being the core mechanic for oh so many games these days. It's good fun if done right, but for AAA titles it seems about the only option (see: Bioshock: Infinite, Tomb Raider reboot, Dead Space 3, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Star Trek game ...).
Quote from: Valmy on June 20, 2013, 03:59:33 PM
I am not the biggest fan of David Gaider's writing but I thought this was a great talk about the industry:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/194571/Video_Sexism_and_sexuality_in_games.php
I watched it and then reflected a bit on what you said about the rapey/abortiony stuff you were mentioning earlier. Did you see this and what did you think?
I thought that was interesting enough I actually watched all 45 minutes of it.
Quote from: Syt on June 21, 2013, 12:35:33 AM
I've been playing digital games for well over 20 years now, and I can say that I'm thoroughly bored by an endless parade of scantily clad, improbably proportioned female characters that are shallow as a puddle in the street and just work with gender stereotypes/sex hormones.
I like those. I mean, they don't make up for poor game design or anything, but eye candy is always a plus.
I feel vaguely insulted that developers/publishers think they can use cheap sex appeal to sell games to me. I have Sims 3 with user mods for that thankyouverymuch.
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2013, 06:28:18 AM
Quote from: Kleves on June 20, 2013, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2013, 06:41:03 PM
Executive summary?
He wants affirmative action for video game characters.
:rolleyes:
When your best argument in developing minority characters in video games is to hire minorities because you can't violate the NDA by reaching out to real-life minorities, what else would you call it?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 21, 2013, 06:32:35 AM
When your best argument in developing minority characters in video games is to hire minorities because you can't violate the NDA by reaching out to real-life minorities, what else would you call it?
Um...hiring people who can do the job better?
Besides affirmative action is a legal requirement.
Quote from: Syt on June 21, 2013, 12:35:33 AM
I've been playing digital games for well over 20 years now, and I can say that I'm thoroughly bored by an endless parade of scantily clad, improbably proportioned female characters that are shallow as a puddle in the street and just work with gender stereotypes/sex hormones.
I never saw that in Europa Universalis or Empire: Total War! I always miss out the good stuff dammit!
Quote
Also, I'm tired of "shooting people in the face" being the core mechanic for oh so many games these days. It's good fun if done right, but for AAA titles it seems about the only option (see: Bioshock: Infinite, Tomb Raider reboot, Dead Space 3, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Star Trek game ...).
add Mass Effect 3 MP to the list. You get bonus damage for shooting at the head.
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2013, 09:37:20 AM
I never saw that in Europa Universalis or Empire: Total War! I always miss out the good stuff dammit!
Yeah I am also pretty isolated from these trends...they pretty much only came up when I was playing Bioware games ironically. Heh.
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2013, 08:25:30 AM
Um...hiring people who can do the job better?
That would only apply if the job was "being a minority."
Quote from: Kleves on June 21, 2013, 09:53:52 AM
That would only apply if the job was "being a minority."
Well that is the job. You need to be able to write a large number of different characters, uncluding getting in the head of minority characters. If you fail at that you should not have the job. If you do not know how to make a product that 47% of the market will like you are failing.
You also need to point out where he was calling for laws in the US and Canada requiring minority video game characters, being what affirmative action is and all.
Quote from: Valmy on June 21, 2013, 10:02:13 AM
Quote from: Kleves on June 21, 2013, 09:53:52 AM
That would only apply if the job was "being a minority."
Well that is the job. You need to be able to write a large number of different characters, uncluding getting in the head of minority characters. If you fail at that you should not have the job. If you do not know how to make a product that 47% of the market will like you are failing.
You also need to point out where he was calling for laws in the US and Canada requiring minority video game characters, being what affirmative action is and all.
If I wanted to deal with minorities, I'd go out in the world and meet them. Keep them out of my games!
Quote from: garbon on June 21, 2013, 10:14:36 AM
If I wanted to deal with minorities, I'd go out in the world and meet them. Keep them out of my games!
:lol:
I could write some great minority characters.
Generally AAA console titles try to be as risk averse as possible and that means catering to white dudes by having the protagonist be a grizzled white dude with brown hair unless there's a compelling reason not to; and usually the white guys responsible for developing the protagonist can't convince the other white guys who make the final call that the reason is compelling enough.
There are some exceptions, of course. Japanese games tend to go for some sort of idealized Asian dude with some white features, and there are, of course the mascots and the rare hot chick. You'll get your diversity in games that allow you to create your own character, or in ensemble cast type games.
That's pretty evident to most people who play games, I think.
As for the industry, it's mainly white dudes, yeah. Some of them are terribly sexist, some of them are less terribly sexist, and some of them are not particularly sexist. There are some women, and some of them can trade on being female in some contexts but overall it's not to their advantage to be women IMO; though the ones that make it obviously have found a way to navigate the industry and even thrive.
How will it change, if it does change? In terms of the game, it's really up to the market. If some indies or brave non-indie studios make some more diverse protagonists and make lots of money, you'll see plenty of people rushing to follow that trend.
As for the industry itself changing? I don't have any answers. I've taught two different classes in game design; the first one had 1 woman out of 16, the second class has 1 woman out of 20. The place I work now has a pretty damn bro-like vibe; previous places have ranged from relatively benign and even supportive towards women in the industry, to severely and dysfunctionally sexist and outright hostile to women.
I expect it will be a long, slow change if change comes at all.
Quote from: Jacob on June 26, 2013, 11:52:53 PMif change comes at all.
There was recently some talk about the programs in Austria that want to promote "typically male" jobs to women (engineering, IT, natural scinces etc.). After decades of investment in such projects, there's only very little change in gender structures in those kinds of jobs. The overwhelming majority of girls move into nurturing jobs (nurse, teacher, doctors etc), become office workers, or choose relatively low level service careers (hairdresser, supermarket employee etc.).
They are oppressed by sexist structures in society that force them to choose poorly from a male perspective.
Quote from: Jacob on June 26, 2013, 11:52:53 PM
Generally AAA console titles try to be as risk averse as possible and that means catering to white dudes by having the protagonist be a grizzled white dude with brown hair unless there's a compelling reason not to; and usually the white guys responsible for developing the protagonist can't convince the other white guys who make the final call that the reason is compelling enough.
There are some exceptions, of course. Japanese games tend to go for some sort of idealized Asian dude with some white features, and there are, of course the mascots and the rare hot chick. You'll get your diversity in games that allow you to create your own character, or in ensemble cast type games.
That's pretty evident to most people who play games, I think.
As for the industry, it's mainly white dudes, yeah. Some of them are terribly sexist, some of them are less terribly sexist, and some of them are not particularly sexist. There are some women, and some of them can trade on being female in some contexts but overall it's not to their advantage to be women IMO; though the ones that make it obviously have found a way to navigate the industry and even thrive.
How will it change, if it does change? In terms of the game, it's really up to the market. If some indies or brave non-indie studios make some more diverse protagonists and make lots of money, you'll see plenty of people rushing to follow that trend.
As for the industry itself changing? I don't have any answers. I've taught two different classes in game design; the first one had 1 woman out of 16, the second class has 1 woman out of 20. The place I work now has a pretty damn bro-like vibe; previous places have ranged from relatively benign and even supportive towards women in the industry, to severely and dysfunctionally sexist and outright hostile to women.
I expect it will be a long, slow change if change comes at all.
I suspect it'll take a generation at least (not a console generation, an ordinary one). Today's developers are the guys who were plugging quarters into arcade machines 10-30 years ago. If there is a significant market segment composed of women, then it's from them that that new female developers were come from.
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2013, 09:37:20 AM
Also, I'm tired of "shooting people in the face" being the core mechanic for oh so many games these days. It's good fun if done right, but for AAA titles it seems about the only option (see: Bioshock: Infinite, Tomb Raider reboot, Dead Space 3, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Star Trek game ...).
Deer Hunter: Vice Presidential Edition
Good in parts but the turgid PC bromides grated a little.
A somewhat related article on and about Kotaku: http://kotaku.com/a-note-about-brutal-comments-and-a-kotaku-for-everyon-589637991?fb_action_ids=10151738110438938&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210151738110438938%22%3A675699625780511%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210151738110438938%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2013, 09:37:10 AM
Quote from: viper37 on June 21, 2013, 09:37:20 AM
Also, I'm tired of "shooting people in the face" being the core mechanic for oh so many games these days. It's good fun if done right, but for AAA titles it seems about the only option (see: Bioshock: Infinite, Tomb Raider reboot, Dead Space 3, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Star Trek game ...).
Deer Hunter: Vice Presidential Edition
:lol: Now with the Kenny Cosgrove expansion pack!