Languish.org

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/03/london-bridge-closed-after-serious-police-incident-live

again.

pubs & bars evacuated in the area.  as always, reports are confused.

It's apparently a popular spot on Saturday nights.

I hope there is not too many casualties :(

Languishite londoners, please report.

QuoteA person who was on London Bridge after an incident on Saturday told a Reuters reporter that she saw three people who appeared to have their throats cut.

Quote
Officers have then responded to reports of stabbings in #BoroughMarket. Armed officers responded and shots have been fired. 2/3

:(

That's a lot of events that are supposedly going down. I was going to be in Vauxhall tonight but got lazy. :blush:

If you want to follow along as updates are posted:

https://www.reddit.com/live/z1i00vs1iwx2/


Supposedly a third event taking place in Vauxhall.    Events appear to be a van htis pedestrians on London bridge, 3 attackers get out of van with machetes/'long knives and start slashing and stabbing people.  Several fatalities being reported.

Reddit? :x

Who knew its good for following events as they unfold.

Get off your high horse.   :rolleyes:

Quote from: garbon on June 03, 2017, 06:13:49 PM
That's a lot of events that are supposedly going down. I was going to be in Vauxhall tonight but got lazy. :blush:

And the Old get Older!

Oh the Islamity!

The Met police have said the first two attacks are terrorism, whilst the incident at Vauxhall is an unrelated stabbing (presumably 'just' criminal)



At least these attacks show terrorists on the mainland have serious problems getting firearms and so have to resort to vehicles and knifes/blades.

A few years back we had a Languish meet-up in the pubs around where the attacks have taken place.


Also forgot I used to drink there at the old George pub just off the high street, which is 100 ft from the probable seen of the 2nd/follow attack at Borough Market.

Unconfirmed reports of two men shot dead by police.

It's getting harder to know how to respond to these, emotionally or verbally. But I will admit I'm getting tired of the increasingly hollow platitudes that I'm sure will be circling about shortly: love not hate, je suis Borough Market, and so on.

Quote from: Alcibiades on June 03, 2017, 06:51:29 PM
Who knew its good for following events as they unfold.

Get off your high horse.   :rolleyes:

Yeah, if only there were decent outlets to follow live stories....

Quote from: Camerus on June 03, 2017, 07:39:27 PM
It's getting harder to know how to respond to these, emotionally or verbally. But I will admit I'm getting tired of the increasingly hollow platitudes that I'm sure will be circling about shortly: love not hate, je suis Borough Market, and so on.

That's some power. Being tired of something before it happens!

Quote from: garbon on June 03, 2017, 07:46:47 PM

Quote from: Camerus on June 03, 2017, 07:39:27 PM
It's getting harder to know how to respond to these, emotionally or verbally. But I will admit I'm getting tired of the increasingly hollow platitudes that I'm sure will be circling about shortly: love not hate, je suis Borough Market, and so on.

That's some power. Being tired of something before it happens!

I guess you're being intentionally obtuse for some reason, not to mention being a dick.

A photo released to the bbc apparently taken within borough market show a policeman standing over a living attacker who appeared to be wearing some type of explosive/cannister laden jacket. In the background is another policeman looking down on a possible shot/killed attacker.

edit:
Found the image:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fnews%2F2017%2F06%2F04%2FTELEMMGLPICT000130840894-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqxE6WYbzRGIq7DYNoS4-zig1vLvhkMtVb21dMmpQBfEs.jpeg&hash=2cfa328448c32476531423eeaeadccfa64843679)

Uncomfirmed reports of 7 dead and 20 injured.


edit:
Sun news reporting several controlled explosions carried out by police with the last 45-30 minutes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/03/london-bridge-incident-armed-police-respond-several-people-mown/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/03/london-bridge-incident-armed-police-respond-several-people-mown/)

........

12:46AM
Knifeman shouted 'this is for Allah' - reports

An eyewitness on London Bridge, told the BBC he saw three men stabbing people indiscriminately, shouting "this is for Allah".

He told how he saw a van driving on the pavement with people running out of the way, before three men got out.

"They literally just started kicking them, punching them, they took out knives. It was a rampage really," he said.

......

Quote from: Camerus on June 03, 2017, 07:51:18 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 03, 2017, 07:46:47 PM

Quote from: Camerus on June 03, 2017, 07:39:27 PM
It's getting harder to know how to respond to these, emotionally or verbally. But I will admit I'm getting tired of the increasingly hollow platitudes that I'm sure will be circling about shortly: love not hate, je suis Borough Market, and so on.

That's some power. Being tired of something before it happens!

I guess you're being intentionally obtuse for some reason, not to mention being a dick.

These types of attacks are all but impossible to detect and plan for.

QuoteChilling testimony from witness
He was at a pub with some mates, decided to leave and get something to eat at around 10pm. Walks in the direction of London Bridge, passing under the train bridge. He saw someone who had been stabbed, then saw 3 "Muslim guys" running up, started stabbing a girl. They then stabbed someone else.
He then started shouting at everyone to run, went back towards the Borough. They then stabbed the bouncer at the Tavern (pub). They were running in all the pubs, bars, stabbing everyone.

Quote from: garbon on June 03, 2017, 07:45:29 PM

Quote from: Alcibiades on June 03, 2017, 06:51:29 PM
Who knew its good for following events as they unfold.

Get off your high horse.   :rolleyes:

Yeah, if only there were decent outlets to follow live stories....

You add so much to discussions, you are valued.   :)

First Manchester now this.... If the timing is coincidental these murderers are very lucky.
I really smell an attempt to sway the election in a xenophobic direction

Quote from: Tyr on June 04, 2017, 12:42:30 AM
First Manchester now this.... If the timing is coincidental these murderers are very lucky.
I really smell an attempt to sway the election in a xenophobic direction

By Muslim radicals?

Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2017, 12:50:51 AM

Quote from: Tyr on June 04, 2017, 12:42:30 AM
First Manchester now this.... If the timing is coincidental these murderers are very lucky.
I really smell an attempt to sway the election in a xenophobic direction

By Muslim radicals?

It works in their favour.  Resentment against muslims increases, more recruits for ISIS.

Quote from: viper37 on June 04, 2017, 01:04:26 AM
It works in their favour.  Resentment against muslims increases, more recruits for ISIS.

I mean sure. I was just checking to see if Tyr meant that or some kind of sinister false flag plot or something.

It's known to be key to their overall masterplan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12002726/The-grey-zone-How-Isis-wants-to-divide-the-world-into-Muslims-and-crusaders.html

It is known.

Quote from: Tyr on June 04, 2017, 01:41:20 AM
It's known to be key to their overall masterplan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12002726/The-grey-zone-How-Isis-wants-to-divide-the-world-into-Muslims-and-crusaders.html

dar-al-harb and dar-al-islam. They're just doing what their religion commands them to do. And the end goal is to bring everything into the dar-al-islam, with or without the consent of the others.

QuoteDonald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump  9h

We need to be smart, vigilant and tough. We need the courts to give us back our rights. We need the Travel Ban as an extra level of safety!



Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump  9h

Whatever the United States can do to help out in London and the U. K., we will be there - WE ARE WITH YOU. GOD BLESS!

I wonder on the first if he'd actually heard the news yet or if that post was just Donald being Donald.

Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2017, 03:48:32 AM
I wonder on the first if he'd actually heard the news yet or if that post was just Donald being Donald.

The posts were made 7 minutes apart (4:17 pm + 4:24 pm).

Quote from: Syt on June 04, 2017, 04:47:23 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2017, 03:48:32 AM
I wonder on the first if he'd actually heard the news yet or if that post was just Donald being Donald.

The posts were made 7 minutes apart (4:17 pm + 4:24 pm).

Which doesn't really underline what he knew or didn't with the first post.

I'm guessing: Donald being Donald in reaction to initial reports. :P

I hear May has found the true problem: the Internet

I think the Internet better starts buying as much weapons from the UK as Saud Arabia, if it wants to get away with giving safe space for terrorists

Let's see whether the perpetrators came from Iran, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan or Libya on a visa. That would actually make Trump's travel ban applicable. But most of these terrorists recently seem to be of the home grown variety.

Quote from: Zanza on June 04, 2017, 05:01:27 AM
Let's see whether the perpetrators came from Iran, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan or Libya on a visa. That would actually make Trump's travel ban applicable. But most of these terrorists recently seem to be of the home grown variety.

Still kind of irrelevant even then. Attacks in UK don't really logical justify US travel ban.

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 04:55:49 AM
I hear May has found the true problem: the Internet

I think the Internet better starts buying as much weapons from the UK as Saud Arabia, if it wants to get away with giving safe space for terrorists

I think privacy protections in Britain were never very strong and with leaving the EU and continued terrorism I could see the government eroding them further.

Quote from: Zanza on June 04, 2017, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 04:55:49 AM
I hear May has found the true problem: the Internet

I think the Internet better starts buying as much weapons from the UK as Saud Arabia, if it wants to get away with giving safe space for terrorists

I think privacy protections in Britain were never very strong and with leaving the EU and continued terrorism I could see the government eroding them further.

plus all the rest they might end up doing if shit keeps deteriorating.
Pretty extreme to do a proper remake of V for Vendetta.

Quote from: Zanza on June 04, 2017, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 04:55:49 AM
I hear May has found the true problem: the Internet

I think the Internet better starts buying as much weapons from the UK as Saud Arabia, if it wants to get away with giving safe space for terrorists

I think privacy protections in Britain were never very strong and with leaving the EU and continued terrorism I could see the government eroding them further.

It is really worrying, that she just HAS to campaign for greater state control of the Internet at the slightest excuse she gets. And her alternative is a guy who considers Fidel Castro a great warrior of social justice.

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 06:46:03 AM

Quote from: Zanza on June 04, 2017, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 04:55:49 AM
I hear May has found the true problem: the Internet

I think the Internet better starts buying as much weapons from the UK as Saud Arabia, if it wants to get away with giving safe space for terrorists

I think privacy protections in Britain were never very strong and with leaving the EU and continued terrorism I could see the government eroding them further.

It is really worrying, that she just HAS to campaign for greater state control of the Internet at the slightest excuse she gets. And her alternative is a guy who considers Fidel Castro a great warrior of social justice.

Well that's her, a stick of seaside rock (sweet) with authoritarian written all the way through it, rather than Blackpool or Eastbourne.

On the positive, spent the day in central London which apart from inconvenience of having London Bridge station closed, was basically like any other Sunday.

Quote from: Syt on June 04, 2017, 04:53:36 AM
I'm guessing: Donald being Donald in reaction to initial reports. :P

QuoteBut then he decided to slam the mayor of the city attacked, who had calmly warned his fellow Londoners: "Londoners will see an increased police presence today and over the course of the next few days. There's no reason to be alarmed." Trump took the second part out of context and responded viciously, "At least 7 dead and 48 wounded in terror attack and Mayor of London says there is 'no reason to be alarmed!'" (The mayor, of course, was telling them not to be alarmed by the heightened police presence.) Trump was not done, however, inanely tweeting, "Do you notice we are not having a gun debate right now? That's because they used knives and a truck!"

Rest assured, strong and resolute Britons, that the US government will be here to troll you in your time of need.

America was bound to elect a retarded buffoon eventually.

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 06:46:03 AM

Quote from: Zanza on June 04, 2017, 05:25:50 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 04:55:49 AM
I hear May has found the true problem: the Internet

I think the Internet better starts buying as much weapons from the UK as Saud Arabia, if it wants to get away with giving safe space for terrorists

I think privacy protections in Britain were never very strong and with leaving the EU and continued terrorism I could see the government eroding them further.

It is really worrying, that she just HAS to campaign for greater state control of the Internet at the slightest excuse she gets. And her alternative is a guy who considers Fidel Castro a great warrior of social justice.

Apparently she wants international agreements between governments on this. Didn't she put up continued security cooperation with Europe up for negotiation as part of Brexit?

Quote from: Tamas on June 04, 2017, 06:46:03 AM
It is really worrying, that she just HAS to campaign for greater state control of the Internet at the slightest excuse she gets.

Unfortunately, it's not just how these maniacs are "inspired," but it is the primary way these morons communicate with one another.

QuoteAnd her alternative is a guy who considers Fidel Castro a great warrior of social justice.

And he was.  :smarty:  He's just not an appropriate example for the UK.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2017, 10:41:49 AMUnfortunately, it's not just how these maniacs are "inspired," but it is the primary way these morons communicate with one another.

Just like 60 million innocent British with an expectation of privacy in their communications.

Quote from: Zanza on June 04, 2017, 10:45:23 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2017, 10:41:49 AMUnfortunately, it's not just how these maniacs are "inspired," but it is the primary way these morons communicate with one another.

Just like 60 million innocent British with an expectation of privacy in their communications.

It's the expectation of privacy that's really innocent. LOL, suckers.

I think it being London there's a greater than even chance these attackers will turn out to be migrants rather than UK-born British nationals.

Will be dynamite for May's campaign if it turns out one or more are recent migrants/refugees.  <_<

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 04:58:41 PM
I think it being London there's a greater than even chance these attackers will turn out to be migrants rather than UK-born British nationals.

You mean, like Salman Abedi?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2017, 05:50:37 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 04:58:41 PM
I think it being London there's a greater than even chance these attackers will turn out to be migrants rather than UK-born British nationals.

You mean, like Salman Abedi?

No, cities like Birmingham, Manchester and other Lancashire/Yorkshire cites have longer established Muslim populations, London because of it's nature has more transient populations so it's more likely they'll be non-UK born, but by how much I don't know.

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 05:57:19 PM
No, cities like Birmingham, Manchester and other Lancashire/Yorkshire cites have longer established Muslim populations, London because of it's nature has more transient populations so it's more likely they'll be non-UK born, but by how much I don't know.

Oh, so more like Hasib Hussain, Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer then.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2017, 06:02:45 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 05:57:19 PM
No, cities like Birmingham, Manchester and other Lancashire/Yorkshire cites have longer established Muslim populations, London because of it's nature has more transient populations so it's more likely they'll be non-UK born, but by how much I don't know.

Oh, so more like Hasib Hussain, Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer then.

Kind of you to make my case* for me. 



* All three born in West Yorkshire cities, two in Leeds the other in Bradford.  :bowler:

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 06:08:13 PM
Kind of you to make my case* for me. 



* All three born in West Yorkshire cities, two in Leeds the other in Bradford.  :bowler:

I think you're making my case for me; namely, your slightly hypocritical xenophobic colors colours are showing.  But that's also understandable, all things considered.   Sometimes even the most enlightened of us get a little bit tribal at times.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2017, 06:15:11 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 06:08:13 PM
Kind of you to make my case* for me. 



* All three born in West Yorkshire cities, two in Leeds the other in Bradford.  :bowler:

I think you're making my case for me; namely, your slightly hypocritical xenophobic colors colours are showing.  But that's also understandable, all things considered.   Sometimes even the most enlightened of us get a little bit tribal at times.

:huh:

So you're not deny you're entirely wrong about the origins of the 7/7 bombers.

I don't know were you get the thrust of you post from. I was just pointing out a possible facet of the attack, namely London has a relatively mobile population and has seen successive influxes of different migrants groups in recent years.

It's like the European 21st century New York.  :)

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 06:19:20 PM
:huh:

So you're not deny you're entirely wrong about the origins of the 7/7 bombers. []/quote]

I don't know were you get the thrust of you post from. I was just pointing out a possible facet of the attack, namely London has a relatively mobile population and has seen successive influxes of different migrants groups in recent years.

It's like the European 21st century New York.  :)

What the fuck ever, dude.  UK-born is UK-born; you want to be a snobby metropolitan asshole about who's from London and who's a non-London sand nigger, that's on you.  Quite frankly, your shitty little island is too fucking small to have hangups over whose from which fucking postal codes, but hey, we're talking the UK here, so there you go.

Fact remains is that you guys have a real problem with UK-born non-whites blowing shit up and chopping up your fellow citizens.  The English Dream is obviously not clicking with everybody.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2017, 06:33:23 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 06:19:20 PM
:huh:

So you're not deny you're entirely wrong about the origins of the 7/7 bombers. []/quote]

I don't know were you get the thrust of you post from. I was just pointing out a possible facet of the attack, namely London has a relatively mobile population and has seen successive influxes of different migrants groups in recent years.

It's like the European 21st century New York.  :)

What the fuck ever, dude.  UK-born is UK-born; you want to be a snobby metropolitan asshole about who's from London and who's a non-London sand nigger, that's on you.  Quite frankly, your shitty little island is too fucking small to have hangups over whose from which fucking postal codes, but hey, we're talking the UK here, so there you go.

Fact remains is that you guys have a real problem with UK-born non-whites blowing shit up and chopping up your fellow citizens.  The English Dream is obviously not clicking with everybody.

:rolleyes:

Fact remains if these guy aren't UK born it'll be a boon to the May's campaign and other right-wing groups.

If they're Britsh Muslim, much less so and then the debate can focus on the origin of their extremism.

These were the points I was making in the original post, your replies just seem like Transatlantic bluster for jet-stream sake.


One question, do you think May will resist the temptation to go full Marianne Le Pen, if the polls continue to narrow and it turns out these are johnny foreigner attackers?

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 06:44:17 PM
One question, do you think May will resist the temptation to go full Marianne Le Pen, if the polls continue to narrow and it turns out these are johnny foreigner attackers?

Nope, and it's not going to matter if they're foreign born or UK-born like most of your terrorists.  Because you people are just as racist as the continentals when it comes to the Moose Lambs; you've just done a better job at hiding it longer.  But those days are over.

Reading first hand accounts of the attacks, seems to my mind that they went out of their way to target young women.

Though I've not seen a breakdown of the casualties yet, so could well be wrong.

But it would fit in with what a feminist muslim politician was saying on today's news, that these types of attackers are male who tend to have a criminal background and a history of violence against women, before they adopt radical islam.

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 06:08:13 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2017, 06:02:45 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 04, 2017, 05:57:19 PM
No, cities like Birmingham, Manchester and other Lancashire/Yorkshire cites have longer established Muslim populations, London because of it's nature has more transient populations so it's more likely they'll be non-UK born, but by how much I don't know.

Oh, so more like Hasib Hussain, Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer then.

Kind of you to make my case* for me. 



* All three born in West Yorkshire cities, two in Leeds the other in Bradistan.  :bowler:

FYP

Quote from: The Brain on June 04, 2017, 10:07:13 AM
America was bound to elect a retarded buffoon eventually.

We had a good run.  :(

Quote from: Syt on June 04, 2017, 04:53:36 AM
I'm guessing: Donald being Donald in reaction to initial reports. :P

Actually, yeah he had known as apparently he'd retweeted before the drudge report mentioning the attack so no cover on this one.

Moderate Muslims

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/05/london-attack-isis-claims-responsibility-victims-named-live-updates

QuoteThe Muslim Council of Britain says more than 130 imams and religious leaders from diverse backgrounds have refused to perform the funeral prayer for the London attackers, in what it calls "an unprecedented move". They have also urged others to do likewise. In a statement, they say:

QuoteAlongside our friends and neighbours, we mourn this attack on our home, society and people and feel pain for the suffering of the victims and their families. We pray to God that the perpetrators be judged in accordance with the gravity of their crimes in the hereafter. Their acts and wilful dismissal of our religious principles alienates them from any association with our community for whom the inviolability of every human life is the founding principle.

Consequently, and in light of other such ethical principles which are quintessential to Islam, we will not perform the traditional Islamic funeral prayer for the perpetrators and we also urge fellow imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege. This is because such indefensible actions are completely at odds with the lofty teachings of Islam.

Good. Condemnation on a theological basis is pretty vital to our efforts.

QuoteTwo of the men who carried out Saturday night's terror attack in London have been named by police.

Khuram Butt, 27, was married with children and lived in Barking, east London for a number of years.

Scotland Yard said he was known to police and MI5 but there was no intelligence to suggest an attack.

The other attacker was named as Rachid Redouane, 30. The pair and one other man were shot dead by police after killing seven people and injuring 48.

Quote from: Maladict on June 05, 2017, 12:34:56 PM

QuoteTwo of the men who carried out Saturday night's terror attack in London have been named by police.

Khuram Butt, 27, was married with children and lived in Barking, east London for a number of years.

Scotland Yard said he was known to police and MI5 but there was no intelligence to suggest an attack.

The other attacker was named as Rachid Redouane, 30. The pair and one other man were shot dead by police after killing seven people and injuring 48.

Further down the article:

Quote
The Met police said Butt was a British citizen born in Pakistan, while Redouane, who also lived in Barking, claimed to be Moroccan-Libyan.

This will definitely be picked up and used by UKIP and probably to Tories during the campaigning, immigrants=bad.

Seems you are projecting a bit mongers  ;) There are too many Muslims with voting rights to go after them, the xenophobic vote would not compensate, especially considering they'll vote Tory anyways.

Quote from: Maladict on June 05, 2017, 12:34:56 PM

QuoteTwo of the men who carried out Saturday night's terror attack in London have been named by police.

Khuram Butt, 27, was married with children and lived in Barking, east London for a number of years.

Scotland Yard said he was known to police and MI5 but there was no intelligence to suggest an attack.

The other attacker was named as Rachid Redouane, 30. The pair and one other man were shot dead by police after killing seven people and injuring 48.

Khuram any relation to Monc E?

So the two chaps from Barking were, in fact, barking  :hmm:

Quote from: Tamas on June 05, 2017, 01:50:06 PM
Seems you are projecting a bit mongers  ;) There are too many Muslims with voting rights to go after them, the xenophobic vote would not compensate, especially considering they'll vote Tory anyways.

Tories get almost no Muslim votes already, so what difference does it make?

Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
Moderate Muslims

...

:lol:  You do realize there is no such thing right?



G.

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 06:46:23 PM
:lol:  You do realize there is no such thing right?

G.

:rolleyes:

I was wondering if that particular snake would crawl out of its hole.

Quote from: Jacob on June 05, 2017, 06:57:00 PM

:rolleyes:

I wonder how long you'll go on with your denial?  How many deaths will it take?  How much destruction do you need to witness before you admit to the truth?

Or perhaps your need to feel morally superior trumps the lives of all the present and future victims of Islamism?



G.

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 07:12:54 PM

Quote from: Jacob on June 05, 2017, 06:57:00 PM

:rolleyes:

I wonder how long you'll go on with your denial?  How many deaths will it take?  How much destruction do you need to witness before you admit to the truth?

Or perhaps your need to feel morally superior trumps the lives of all the present and future victims of Islamism?



G.

Yeah, Jacob, you could prevent all those needless deaths.

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 06:46:23 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
Moderate Muslims

...

:lol:  You do realize there is no such thing right?



G.

depends.  do you think there is such a thing as a moderate christian, a moderate buddhist, a moderate jew, a moderate raelian?

Quote from: viper37 on June 05, 2017, 07:40:14 PM
depends.  do you think there is such a thing as a moderate christian, a moderate buddhist, a moderate jew, a moderate raelian?

Do any of these other sub-groups drive planes into buildings or trucks into crowds on a regular basis?



G.

I thought the whole "alt-right faggot moose lamb hater" thing had been worn out for a few months already.

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 08:06:04 PM

Quote from: viper37 on June 05, 2017, 07:40:14 PM
depends.  do you think there is such a thing as a moderate christian, a moderate buddhist, a moderate jew, a moderate raelian?

Do any of these other sub-groups drive planes into buildings or trucks into crowds on a regular basis?



G.

At this point in history who has killed more people in the U.K., Irish Catholics or Muslims? Serious question. The troubles went on for quite a while.

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 07:12:54 PM
I wonder how long you'll go on with your denial?  How many deaths will it take?  How much destruction do you need to witness before you admit to the truth?

Or perhaps your need to feel morally superior trumps the lives of all the present and future victims of Islamism?

"Feel superior" is laughable coming from you. You only post on Languish when people have died so you can parade your smug ghoulish bigotry.

Quote from: Jacob on June 05, 2017, 08:37:07 PM

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 07:12:54 PM
I wonder how long you'll go on with your denial?  How many deaths will it take?  How much destruction do you need to witness before you admit to the truth?

Or perhaps your need to feel morally superior trumps the lives of all the present and future victims of Islamism?

"Feel superior" is laughable coming from you. You only post on Languish when people have died so you can parade your smug ghoulish bigotry.

You are a lot more complimentary to him than I was about to post.  :lol:

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 08:06:04 PM

Quote from: viper37 on June 05, 2017, 07:40:14 PM
depends.  do you think there is such a thing as a moderate christian, a moderate buddhist, a moderate jew, a moderate raelian?

Do any of these other sub-groups drive planes into buildings or trucks into crowds on a regular basis?



G.

Define "regular basis".  I'm pretty sure there are more victims of mass shootings in the US committed by Christians than terror acts by Muslims.

There is certainly a problem with Islam, in the way it is taught, something that makes people more vulnerable, right now, than other communities, to radicalism.  But to say there is no such thing as a moderate muslim, unless you have a very narrow view of what is a muslim, the exact same view as ISIS, in fact, than it is false to say there are no moderate muslims.

As for the other groups, well there are fanatical buddhists in Thailand and Myanmar, often advocating violence.
For Christians, as HVC said, you need to look at the IRA's actions.  They didn't always strike at the Empire's symbols, they often did not even tried, preferring easier marks like civilians.
For Jews, you only need to look at our own Israeli here.  I wouldn't call Siegebreaker a moderate, and he's been out of the country for a while.  Most of these settlers are pretty radical about whom the land should belong to and where Palestinians can go.  And since Trump's dear friend Bibi has won a few elections by now, I wouldn't say the people who don't want a Palestinian state as neighbour are a tiny minority.
For Raelians, well, so far, there as been no violence.  Various petty crimes, seizure of assets (as with all sects) and likely sex with minors, but who cares, they're not killing anyone.

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 06:46:23 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 05, 2017, 11:20:40 AM
Moderate Muslims

...

:lol:  You do realize there is no such thing right?



G.

Honest question - do you actually personally know any Muslims on a neighbourly level?

Quote from: HVC on June 05, 2017, 08:12:31 PM

Quote from: Grallon on June 05, 2017, 08:06:04 PM

Quote from: viper37 on June 05, 2017, 07:40:14 PM
depends.  do you think there is such a thing as a moderate christian, a moderate buddhist, a moderate jew, a moderate raelian?

Do any of these other sub-groups drive planes into buildings or trucks into crowds on a regular basis?



G.

At this point in history who has killed more people in the U.K., Irish Catholics or Muslims? Serious question. The troubles went on for quite a while.

3,600 people were killed in the "troubles", this includes killings by all the protagonists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

Some morons gave some Irish people a nasty time, but we are talking about Saturday night fights down the pub rather than any organised racism.

The Economist had a nice little chart showing UK deaths from terrorism since 1970 :

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21722697-it-seems-salman-abedi-did-not-act-aloneand-his-fellow-plotters-could-strike-again-hunt

My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

I'm a moderate nuclear physicist.

j/k

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 06, 2017, 01:25:26 AM
The Economist had a nice little chart showing UK deaths from terrorism since 1970 :

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21722697-it-seems-salman-abedi-did-not-act-aloneand-his-fellow-plotters-could-strike-again-hunt

But see, it's OK, because they're not from London. [/mongers]

Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2017, 04:31:52 AM
My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

Well it is used as a term by people who are 1) noting that they don't exist and 2) that Islam overrides any other political feelings they may have.

I wonder at what point will Muslims in western country start to mistrust each other.

My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

Quote from: garbon on June 06, 2017, 05:56:51 AM

Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2017, 04:31:52 AM
My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

Well it is used as a term by people who are 1) noting that they don't exist and 2) that Islam overrides any other political feelings they may have.

To your point,

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/countering-extremism-requires-political-honesty-from-theresa-may/article35204868/

Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2017, 08:23:47 AM
My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

Or incompetence.

I don't think you can be this incompetent.

Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2017, 08:23:47 AM
My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

I'm sure that there are several thousand of these sort of people in the UK. The BBC reports that 850 travelled to support ISIS for example http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32026985 .

Quote from: PRC on June 06, 2017, 12:22:51 AM


Honest question - do you actually personally know any Muslims on a neighbourly level?

Several.  All coworkers - so they're mere acquaintances but they're all 'normal'.  As far as I know most of them are not religious.  They might do (or try to) the Ramadan thing but other than that nothing overt.  There is one girl with a hijab very sweet.  A few years back there was a request to have a room dedicated for prayers but it was shut down after several of the Muslim staff were asked their opinion and most said the workplace wasn't the place for this.



G.

Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2017, 04:31:52 AM
My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

Yeah I hate it because it seems to say that they are not as Muslim as Salafis. The diet coke of Muslims if you will. But we have the same obnoxious terminology for Christians.

Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2017, 08:23:47 AM
My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

If there are thousands of other Muslims that harbor similar radical beliefs but don't engage in violence then they aren't equally bad.  Obnoxious west-haiting bigots are bad, but so long as they don't commit violence they are tolerable. 

Quote from: Tamas on June 06, 2017, 04:31:52 AM
My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

Ruud Koopman's research is pertinent to this, but it doesn't make for optimistic reading. (close to half is fundamentalist in certain western countries, iirc. Meaning they won't kill you but basically hate everything western civilisation stands for.)

edit: other, more optimistic op-ed (dutch only I'm afraid) put the amount of ex-, cultural- and secular-muslims (combined of course) at significant percentages (depending on country again) but beleagered because of misguided over-accommodation of the religion by western 'progressives' and spineless politicians, as well as a lack of theological backing that validates their opinion (IS and co have a big edge there). Meaning that this section of the community is either already living in fear, or can easily be scared into silence.

in any case: don't expect much improvement as long as things like this remain common:

QuoteAssem Hefny, teacher German Culture at Al-Azhar and islamic and Arab studies at University of Marburg, Qantara.de 28/4/2017:
https://en.qantara.de/content/islam-al-azhar-and-the-terrorists-ideology-if-the-cap-fits#comment-33036

"scholarly impartiality and historical knowledge requires that we recognise that all the facts cited by those who defend Islam's tolerance are correct, as well as everything cited by Daesh. Historically it is difficult to deny either the one or the other. (...) From a cognitive point of view, it is hard to separate a text from the person who puts that text into practice, because a text cannot speak for itself or put itself into practice. It is humans who put texts into practice based on how they understand them."

"I myself carried out a survey of two groups of students in what is described as the most open-minded faculty at Al-Azhar. I asked them how, assuming that tomorrow Egypt became as powerful as America, Muslims should treat non-Muslims – should they make them convert to Islam, make them pay the jizya tax for non-Muslims, or fight them?

An overwhelming majority of them said we should promote and propagate Islam. "What if others refuse to embrace Islam?" I asked. They said that, in that case, we should impose the jizya tax on them and if they still refused, we would fight them. So what's the difference between the mentality of these students and the thinking of Daesh? Is it only a matter of degree, in that Daesh is an overt manifestation of something that is hidden deep in the make-up of the majority of Muslims? If that is the case, it is a very serious matter and burying our heads in the sand is not going to solve it."

"Muslims should be aware that they are responsible for the image of Islam and that whether Islam is associated with terrorism or not depends solely on their own behaviour, the state of their civilisation and their contribution to knowledge.

Al-Azhar must realise that while terrorism is indeed linked to cultural, material, social and political decline and to an absence of freedom and social justice, a part of it is also linked to understanding texts, the curricula for interpreting them and the way they are taught. Even if Al-Azhar is not responsible for the first part, it must take primary responsibility for the second."

Given what's now emerging of the murderer's backgrounds, this looks more like a IS directed attack, rather than a home-grown one by three internet radicalised locals, which is then claimed by IS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40169985 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40169985)

I say that because the Italian-Moroccan was in Italy last year trying to get to Syria (I presume Syria given he was going to Istanbul), but stopped by Italian police, so maybe he was later redirected by IS for this attack?

The one married to an Irish girl was in Ireland until relatively recently, but no indication if they came here for work or if he was directly motivated to come to London and plan/organise something.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 06, 2017, 12:24:34 PM
Ruud Koopman's research is pertinent to this, but it doesn't make for optimistic reading.

Based on this article: https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread

I think most of answers just indicates religious conservatism, especially for a religion that is big on laws.

The scary ones strike me as the political ones, not the religious ones. The antisemitism and the clash of civilizations stuff.

Quote from: Valmy on June 06, 2017, 12:53:49 PM

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 06, 2017, 12:24:34 PM
Ruud Koopman's research is pertinent to this, but it doesn't make for optimistic reading.

Based on this article: https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread

I think most of answers just indicates religious conservatism, especially for a religion that is big on laws.

The scary ones strike me as the political ones, not the religious ones. The antisemitism and the clash of civilizations stuff.

both are part of the same spectrum. The religious enable the political. And don't forget that islam is a political system as much as it is a religion/ideology. The religious fundis might not engage in jihad themselves, but they'll likely approve very much if others egage in it.

but as I said in the edit of the post you quoted: there seems to be a very large section of moderates and ex about. It's them that need support, not the religious. And supporting them is not done by allowing sharia(-courts), ignoring the real social, religious and political pressure behind for example the head- and woman-coverings or bending over backwards to accommodate islam. Cause then only the most fundamentalist will win.

Wow. One is Italian.
Thats bad. First time a non UK  EU citizen has done this.
The right are really going to have a field day with that.

Will they ignore the fact the "Italian" is called Youssef Yaghba? Dual citizenship.

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 06, 2017, 01:21:43 PMthere seems to be a very large section of moderates and ex about. It's them that need support, not the religious. And supporting them is not done by allowing sharia(-courts), ignoring the real social, religious and political pressure behind for example the head- and woman-coverings or bending over backwards to accommodate islam. Cause then only the most fundamentalist will win.

So let's say you and I agree on this goal, for arguments sake.

It is my belief - based on observation and reading, but not necessarily "hard science" - that a relatively liberal approach actually works best to that end.

I agree that there's one end of the spectrum where various institutions and hard cultural imperatives broadly force populations to conform to and adopt restrictive regressive values. Conversely, however, I think strong and direct pressure to abandon institutions and cultural values frequently backfire hard, especially if imprecisely targeted or occurring in an environment informed by general bigotry.

When it comes to things like Shariah based institutions and women covering their heads, both sides of the binary can IMO support liberalization and extremism depending on how it's done and additional context.

Generally speaking, where those things happen in a context that sets clear limits within liberal democratic parameters (leaving individual rights inviolate) they tend, in my view, to diffuse rallying points for extremists (since they can't point to easily backed up claims of disrespect and persecution). Conversely, where those things happen within a context that allow extremist gatekeepers to enforce compliance on members of their community, or where individual liberal democratic rights are being directly abrogated then it provides conditions for extremism to flourish.

Whether it's Shariah (which is a fairly broad and nuanced thing), headscarves, dietary restrictions or anything else if we want to support moderates it is in our interest to enlarge the space for people to say "I can pretty much follow my religious teachings and cultural habits AND the tenets of good liberal democratic citizenship". Because the more hard lines you draw, the more people will choose on or the other and that will include people selecting the extremist option.

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on June 06, 2017, 02:13:14 PM
Will they ignore the fact the "Italian" is called Youssef Yaghba? Dual citizenship.

Makes it all the worse I fear.
They seriously belived back at referendum time that refugees will flood into Germany, go to the effort to learn German, assimilate and claim German citizenship... All so they can then exploit this new EU citizenship to move to the UK.

Sometimes I love the Brits: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3731817/defiant-battlecry-of-hero-footie-fan-hailed-the-lion-of-london-bridge-after-single-handedly-fighting-machete-terror-trio-with-bare-fists/

Quote from: Jacob on June 06, 2017, 03:11:19 PM
Sometimes I love the Brits: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3731817/defiant-battlecry-of-hero-footie-fan-hailed-the-lion-of-london-bridge-after-single-handedly-fighting-machete-terror-trio-with-bare-fists/

:lol:

Apparently there was a fair amount of the bottle-hurling, chair-throwing variety of resistance while the terrorists tried to kill as many people as possible before the security forces arrived. I wonder how many lives were saved by this resistance, or was it irrelevant?

That's awesome.  Suck it, Chelsea.

Up there with the Scottish guy who kicked a would-be suicide terrorist in the balls?

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 06, 2017, 03:38:51 PM

Quote from: Jacob on June 06, 2017, 03:11:19 PM
Sometimes I love the Brits: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3731817/defiant-battlecry-of-hero-footie-fan-hailed-the-lion-of-london-bridge-after-single-handedly-fighting-machete-terror-trio-with-bare-fists/

:lol:

Apparently there was a fair amount of the bottle-hurling, chair-throwing variety of resistance while the terrorists tried to kill as many people as possible before the security forces arrived. I wonder how many lives were saved by this resistance, or was it irrelevant?

Probably hard to quantify that, but I still score it as a morale victory - and since terrorism is essentially about morale victories that's still significant.

Friends don't let friends post on Languish when they've been afternoon drinking.

Quote from: garbon on June 07, 2017, 04:51:24 PM
Friends don't let friends post on Languish when they've been afternoon drinking.

Indeed, it's a rather embarrassing post.

Besides, by various account all sorts of people got involved, plus some pretty quick thinking bar/restaurant staff may have saved many by literally bringing down the shutters in front of the attackers.

Can't help but notice how much this attack is being reported in the media. And that even on languish the thread is longer than the Manchester one.
This was a few stabbings in London. Sad but not a unheard of event. The Manchester bomb was far more significant and damaging and investigations are still ongoing.
Then there's that it is being so heavily reported with an election upcoming. Really giving the pm a chance to make some easy speeches.

:(

Well, May seems to have gone full-tilt GWB:

Quote from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/06/theresa-may-will-not-let-human-rights-act-stop-bringing-new/"We should do even more to restrict the freedom and the movements of terrorist suspects when we have enough evidence to know they present a threat, but not enough evidence to prosecute them in full in court. 


"And if human rights laws get in the way of doing these things, we will change those laws to make sure we can do them.

"If I am elected as Prime Minister on Thursday, I can tell you that this vital work begins on Friday."

Quote from: Tyr on June 07, 2017, 05:49:20 PM
Can't help but notice how much this attack is being reported in the media. And that even on languish the thread is longer than the Manchester one.
This was a few stabbings in London. Sad but not a unheard of event. The Manchester bomb was far more significant and damaging and investigations are still ongoing.
Then there's that it is being so heavily reported with an election upcoming. Really giving the pm a chance to make some easy speeches.

:(

Well one is the capital of the country and certainly more languishites have visited it than Manchester.

If the terrorists can clock up a couple more significant attacks in the next 2-3 months then I can see internment being re-introduced in the UK.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 08, 2017, 01:10:50 AM
If the terrorists can clock up a couple more significant attacks in the next 2-3 months then I can see internment being re-introduced in the UK.

Hard to belief, but a newly emboldened May government might go down that cul-de-sac.

Heath's action was an equally bad and counter-productive action, but at least it was limited to one small part of the UK and there the killings were threatening to get out of hand, as that year had seen more than a hundred murdered in an area of 1.5 million people.

This year in the UK we've seen first five people killed, then twenty-two and now eight more out of 60 million, so the threat to civilised, everyday life is orders of magnitude less.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 08, 2017, 01:10:50 AM
If the terrorists can clock up a couple more significant attacks in the next 2-3 months then I can see internment being re-introduced in the UK.

So I need to re-watch the few good bits of V for Vendetta then? The dictatorship bits.

If she loses the election she called for, like Cameron lost his referendum, maybe you guys will stop doing that sort of thing?

Quote from: mongers on June 08, 2017, 08:01:18 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 08, 2017, 01:10:50 AM
If the terrorists can clock up a couple more significant attacks in the next 2-3 months then I can see internment being re-introduced in the UK.

Hard to belief, but a newly emboldened May government might go down that cul-de-sac.

Heath's action was an equally bad and counter-productive action, but at least it was limited to one small part of the UK and there the killings were threatening to get out of hand, as that year had seen more than a hundred murdered in an area of 1.5 million people.

This year in the UK we've seen first five people killed, then twenty-two and now eight more out of 60 million, so the threat to civilised, everyday life is orders of magnitude less.

Yes. I think it would be a bad move too. There is something about locking up innocent people that gets their backs up  :P

I'm 50:50 on the internment in NI, leaning towards thinking they were a net negative. There was a lot more killing and in NI itself it was pretty close to a proper war rather than terrorism by a "tiny minority".

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 08, 2017, 10:00:58 AM

Quote from: mongers on June 08, 2017, 08:01:18 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 08, 2017, 01:10:50 AM
If the terrorists can clock up a couple more significant attacks in the next 2-3 months then I can see internment being re-introduced in the UK.

Hard to belief, but a newly emboldened May government might go down that cul-de-sac.

Heath's action was an equally bad and counter-productive action, but at least it was limited to one small part of the UK and there the killings were threatening to get out of hand, as that year had seen more than a hundred murdered in an area of 1.5 million people.

This year in the UK we've seen first five people killed, then twenty-two and now eight more out of 60 million, so the threat to civilised, everyday life is orders of magnitude less.

Yes. I think it would be a bad move too. There is something about locking up innocent people that gets their backs up  :P

I'm 50:50 on the internment in NI, leaning towards thinking they were a net negative. There was a lot more killing and in NI itself it was pretty close to a proper war rather than terrorism by a "tiny minority".

Indeed and on NI hard to say what might happened if it wasn't used. I suspect it was quite a clumsy tool and fired up a lot of nationalists to the cause.

Trump's classy best friends:

QuoteSaudi Arabia footballers ignore minute's silence for London attack victims
• Tribute held at World Cup qualifier against Australia on Adelaide
• Saudi team carry on warming up for World Cup qualifier except one player

Classy for that one guy to honour it. Shame he's going to be cut from the team.

It's Saudi Arabia, not Siam.

Quote from: HVC on June 08, 2017, 12:35:44 PM
Classy for that one guy to honour it. Shame he's going to be cut from the team.

By the traditional saudi technique of cutting off his head from his body?

Profile of another victim from the attacks - once again, someone who intervened to help a victim and fight back against the attackers: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40226731?ocid=socialflow_twitter

Stressing the obvious here but note how completely multinational the victims were. Only one British citizen out of the eight people killed.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2017, 01:18:50 AM
Stressing the obvious here but note how completely multinational the victims were. Only one British citizen out of the eight people killed.

Yes, three french people, two Australians, one Spaniard, a Canadian(?) and the one Brit.

Also note the age range, oldest I think was the French tourist aged 45.

The young, haven't and aren't being deterred by the terrorism from being out and about, so the olds shouldn't be either, nor do we need further erosion of rights and liberties to confound said terrorism.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2017, 01:18:50 AM
Stressing the obvious here but note how completely multinational the victims were. Only one British citizen out of the eight people killed.

Just goes to show you that even your tourist spots are overrun with foreigners.  So sad!

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 12, 2017, 09:17:29 AM

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2017, 01:18:50 AM
Stressing the obvious here but note how completely multinational the victims were. Only one British citizen out of the eight people killed.

Just goes to show you that even your tourist spots are overrun with foreigners.  So sad!

Only sad tourists actually going to look at London Bridge itself. It isn't at all interesting to look at. The interesting version of with that name is stateside. :D

Borough Market is definitely lousy with them. :x

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 12, 2017, 01:18:50 AM
Stressing the obvious here but note how completely multinational the victims were. Only one British citizen out of the eight people killed.

It could almost be a britain first attack

These people just look like they can't stand people who are not banned from fun by their religion.

Quote from: mongers on June 12, 2017, 07:21:42 AM
Yes, three french people, two Australians, one Spaniard, a Canadian(?) and the one Brit.

Yeah, a Canadian being shown around London by her fiancee (http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christine-archibald-killed-in-london-terror-attack).

a van hit muslims as they were exiting the mosque for their midnight Ramadan prayers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/19/north-london-van-incident-finsbury-park-casualties-collides-pedestrians-live-updates

still unsure if this was deliberate (it seems to look like it) and who did it (ISIS, or some extreme rightwing nutjob)

I'm confused as to why it keeps being called 'a potential terrorist attack' by the Conservatives.

Apparently the guy was smiling and waving as he was taken away.

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2017, 03:37:29 AM
I'm confused as to why it keeps being called 'a potential terrorist attack' by the Conservatives.

I'm not confused at all. It's obviously a case of white guy = lone crazy. Brown guy = evil terrorist plotting the downfall of civilization

Things must be rather tense in Britain these days.  Election, Brexit terrorist, terrorist attacks, that big fire...

Quote from: Razgovory on June 19, 2017, 06:48:49 AM
Things must be rather tense in Britain these days.  Election, Brexit terrorist, terrorist attacks, that big fire...

Nothing seems particularly tense in London. :hmm:

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2017, 03:37:29 AM
I'm confused as to why it keeps being called 'a potential terrorist attack' by the Conservatives.

well, there used to be a radical mosque right there.  It apparently has changed management since, and it's likely the driver didn't even care what type of mosque he was attacking.

But still, I can't help but think of karma.

Quote from: viper37 on June 19, 2017, 09:30:10 AM
But still, I can't help but think of karma.

Ah, yes, lovely girl. Well, except for the tats.

Quote from: viper37 on June 19, 2017, 09:30:10 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2017, 03:37:29 AM
I'm confused as to why it keeps being called 'a potential terrorist attack' by the Conservatives.

well, there used to be a radical mosque right there.  It apparently has changed management since, and it's likely the driver didn't even care what type of mosque he was attacking.

But still, I can't help but think of karma.

I don't know what was the point of this post. Maybe to make yourself seem reprehensible?

I'm seeing a lot of gloating an eye for eye stuff from the right wingers on comments about this.

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2017, 10:01:28 AM

Quote from: viper37 on June 19, 2017, 09:30:10 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2017, 03:37:29 AM
I'm confused as to why it keeps being called 'a potential terrorist attack' by the Conservatives.

well, there used to be a radical mosque right there.  It apparently has changed management since, and it's likely the driver didn't even care what type of mosque he was attacking.

But still, I can't help but think of karma.

I don't know what was the point of this post. Maybe to make yourself seem reprehensible?

So, what you're telling me is, if there was an attack on KKK members preaching racial hatred by radical elements of the American left, you would wheep for them?  Offer thoughts and prayers?

Yeah right.

This particular mosque was a center point of islamic radicalism in the UK.  For years, they invited radical imams preaching their hatred of occidental society and calling for attacks against the occident.  Now, a product of another form of hatred attacks them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Park_Mosque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Park_Mosque)

Quote
According to classified American documents released by Wikileaks, Finsbury Park mosque previously served "as a haven" for Islamic extremists who subsequently fought against allied forces in Afghanistan.[11]

As I said, for years, they preached hatred against everyone else.  Now, they are victims of hatred.  Boomerang effect.

Yes, it's under new management, and it's been turned around, apparently, and it is sad that civilians died.

But for years, they supported terrorism.  This particular mosque.

I don't think it was a coincidence this particular mosque was chosen as a target.  It's not like it's the only one in London, I'm guessing?

Although I'm sure the perperator of the terrorism was happy to simply kill muslims, any muslim, I really, really, doubt the choice of the target was pure coincidence.

Darling, I'd already sussed you out. I didn't need you to expound on it. :mellow:

Quote from: Tyr on June 19, 2017, 10:48:16 AM
I'm seeing a lot of gloating an eye for eye stuff from the right wingers on comments about this.

They always gotta find the anti-Muslim angle.

Quote from: viper37 on June 19, 2017, 10:55:30 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2017, 10:01:28 AM

Quote from: viper37 on June 19, 2017, 09:30:10 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 19, 2017, 03:37:29 AM
I'm confused as to why it keeps being called 'a potential terrorist attack' by the Conservatives.

well, there used to be a radical mosque right there.  It apparently has changed management since, and it's likely the driver didn't even care what type of mosque he was attacking.

But still, I can't help but think of karma.

I don't know what was the point of this post. Maybe to make yourself seem reprehensible?

So, what you're telling me is, if there was an attack on KKK members preaching racial hatred by radical elements of the American left, you would wheep for them?  Offer thoughts and prayers?

Yeah right.

This particular mosque was a center point of islamic radicalism in the UK.  For years, they invited radical imams preaching their hatred of occidental society and calling for attacks against the occident.  Now, a product of another form of hatred attacks them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Park_Mosque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Park_Mosque)

Quote
According to classified American documents released by Wikileaks, Finsbury Park mosque previously served "as a haven" for Islamic extremists who subsequently fought against allied forces in Afghanistan.[11]

As I said, for years, they preached hatred against everyone else.  Now, they are victims of hatred.  Boomerang effect.

Yes, it's under new management, and it's been turned around, apparently, and it is sad that civilians died.

But for years, they supported terrorism.  This particular mosque.

I don't think it was a coincidence this particular mosque was chosen as a target.  It's not like it's the only one in London, I'm guessing?

Although I'm sure the perperator of the terrorism was happy to simply kill muslims, any muslim, I really, really, doubt the choice of the target was pure coincidence.

it's garbon, don't bother.

at least they got him. Unlike the one that blew up a car on the champs elysees.

in time there'll be more though.

Oh good, the hate brigade has shown up.

Speaking of "we have no evidence it's linked to terrorism" - guy(s) beat a 17-year old Muslim girl to death with baseball bats: http://jezebel.com/seventeen-year-old-muslim-girl-captured-and-beaten-to-d-1796213476

QuoteNabra and her peers were observing the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, and their religious affiliation was evident. Yet detectives state that they have "not gotten any indication that this was motivated by hate or bias."

They may have just been after a bit of the old ultraviolence.

Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2017, 12:15:15 PM
They may have just been after a bit of the old ultraviolence.

Typically rapists don't beat their victims to death with baseball bats.

EDIT: ... and none of the reports have mentioned sexual assault.

I guess they just wanted to liberate her from the tyranny of the Hijab.

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 12:18:15 PM

Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2017, 12:15:15 PM
They may have just been after a bit of the old ultraviolence.

Typically rapists don't beat their victims to death with baseball bats.

EDIT: ... and none of the reports have mentioned sexual assault.

:secret: A Clockwork Orange

Quote from: grumbler on June 19, 2017, 02:27:04 PM
:secret: A Clockwork Orange

:secret: ultra-violence = rape in nadsat.

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 12:09:19 PM
Speaking of "we have no evidence it's linked to terrorism" - guy(s) beat a 17-year old Muslim girl to death with baseball bats: http://jezebel.com/seventeen-year-old-muslim-girl-captured-and-beaten-to-d-1796213476 (http://jezebel.com/seventeen-year-old-muslim-girl-captured-and-beaten-to-d-1796213476)

QuoteNabra and her peers were observing the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, and their religious affiliation was evident. Yet detectives state that they have "not gotten any indication that this was motivated by hate or bias."

White people get shot and killed everyday.  Do we say it's motivated by hate or bias everytime?

It does look like a racist act, but it could be something else, like road rage.
Killing of teenager investigated as road rage incident (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/killing-of-muslim-teenager-not-being-investigated-as-a-hate-crime-police-say/2017/06/19/e7670f0a-54f0-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_hassanen-1140a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory)

WHO THE FUCK LINKED TO JEZEBEL?

Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Very naughty. :perv:

The moment firemen on the way to the Grenfell Tower fire realize what they're up against:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze)

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 19, 2017, 08:12:00 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Very naughty. :perv:

Not naughty.  Bad.

"Is it true what they're saying, Ed's testicles are some kind of monsters?"
"They don't have a name for what they are."

Quote from: mongers on June 19, 2017, 08:26:03 PM
The moment firemen on the way to the Grenfell Tower fire realize what they're up against:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze)

That's not flammable cladding, that's flash paper.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:31:47 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 19, 2017, 08:26:03 PM
The moment firemen on the way to the Grenfell Tower fire realize what they're up against:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze)

That's not flammable cladding, that's flash paper.

Now, now, no use jumping to conclusions, you must wait the obligatory 4 years whilst the inquiry report is written, then another 2 years whilst it's kicked into touch the other side of a general election.  :bowler:

Rinse and repeat.

Oh drat thats already been done:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789)

Quote
Four ministers were warned about tower block fire risks

Four separate government ministers were warned that fire regulations were not keeping people safe, in letters that have subsequently been seen by the BBC.

In the leaked letters, experts warn that those living in tower blocks like Grenfell Tower were "at risk".

At least 79 people are dead or missing presumed dead after the fire at the London high-rise last week.

The department that received the letters said work to improve regulation and safety had already been under way.

The letters show experts have been worried about fire safety in tower blocks for years.

Following a fatal fire in Lakanal House in south London in 2009, a series of recommendations were made to keep people safe.

They were ignored. The government promised a review of fire regulations in 2013, but it still has not happened.

BBC One's Panorama has obtained a dozen letters sent by the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group.

Informed by experts, it warned the government it "could not afford to wait for another tragedy".

Four ministers - all from the Department for Communities and Local Government - received letters but did not strengthen the regulations.

Ronnie King, a former chief fire officer who sits on the group, says the government has ignored repeated warnings about tower block safety.

"We have spent four years saying 'Listen, we have got the evidence, we've provided you with the evidence, there is clear public opinion towards this, you ought to move on this'," said Mr King.

After six people were killed at Lakanal House in 2009, the coroner made a series of safety recommendations for the government to consider.

The government department promised a review in 2013, but it was soon delayed.

In March 2014, the parliamentary group wrote: "Surely... when you already have credible evidence to justify updating... the guidance... which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?

"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"

After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."

The group replied to say they "were at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence, which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent".

"As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017 in, for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."

The letters were written before the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower.

One went to the-then Communities and Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles, who received a letter about fire regulations from the parliamentary group in February 2014.

He had also been asked to look at fire safety in February 2013 and March 2013 by two separate coroners, investigating two tower block fires.

In December 2015, the all-party group wrote to Conservative MP James Wharton, another minister in the department at the time, and warned about the risk of fires spreading on the outside of buildings with cladding.

"Today's buildings have a much higher content of readily available combustible material. Examples are timber and polystyrene mixes in structure, cladding and insulation.

"This fire hazard results in many fires because adequate recommendations to developers simply do not exist. There is little or no requirement to mitigate external fire spread."

The last of the four ministers in the department to receive a letter was Gavin Barwell, who has since moved on to become Theresa May's top aide. He received his letter from the parliamentary group in September last year.

In November, Mr Barwell replied to say his department had been looking at the regulations, and would make a statement "in due course".

In April this year, Mr Barwell wrote to say he did "acknowledge that producing a statement on building regulations has taken longer than I had envisaged".

The fire safety group pointed out that it had been "given a similar response by three successive ministers since 2010" and it "is now time to listen to what the Fire Sector is saying".

The government has said there is still no timetable for a review.

The Department for Communities and Local Government said that a police investigation into the Grenfell Fire is already under way "but it will be some time before it is fully understood how the fire started or why it took hold in the way it did."

In a statement, it added: "The government has acted to improve fire regulation and safety, including the recommendations made by the Coroner following the Lakanal House Fire.

"The final recommendation concerned simplification of fire safety guidance, and this work was under way, with a consultation due to be published this summer.

"Fire safety requirements are complex issues and our priority has been that we have high standards. A great deal of work has been completed, including commissioning and undertaking research to support the planned consultation. Clearly, in light of this tragic event, we need to reflect on whether this consultation is the correct next step to take. We will confirm our approach shortly."
Image copyright
AFP
Image caption
Well-wishers have been leaving tributes at Grenfell Tower

In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower.

They were called to a fridge fire, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat.

The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building.

The Fire Brigades Union say firefighters were left facing an unprecedented fire, and officers broke their own safety protocol to rescue people.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Seems like a good reason to post more links from Jezebel...

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 09:30:06 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Seems like a good reason to post more links from Jezebel...

Don't worry, I'll ignore it.  :)

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 19, 2017, 09:31:34 PM

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 09:30:06 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Seems like a good reason to post more links from Jezebel...

Don't worry, I'll ignore it.  :)

That too will be satisfactory.

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 19, 2017, 09:31:34 PM

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 09:30:06 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Seems like a good reason to post more links from Jezebel...

Don't worry, I'll ignore it.  :)

Says the guy who mentions it every time

Quote from: mongers on June 19, 2017, 08:55:17 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:31:47 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 19, 2017, 08:26:03 PM
The moment firemen on the way to the Grenfell Tower fire realize what they're up against:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze)

That's not flammable cladding, that's flash paper.

Now, now, no use jumping to conclusions, you must wait the obligatory 4 years whilst the inquiry report is written, then another 2 years whilst it's kicked into touch the other side of a general election.  :bowler:

Rinse and repeat.

Oh drat thats already been done:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789)

Quote
Four ministers were warned about tower block fire risks

Four separate government ministers were warned that fire regulations were not keeping people safe, in letters that have subsequently been seen by the BBC.

In the leaked letters, experts warn that those living in tower blocks like Grenfell Tower were "at risk".

At least 79 people are dead or missing presumed dead after the fire at the London high-rise last week.

The department that received the letters said work to improve regulation and safety had already been under way.

The letters show experts have been worried about fire safety in tower blocks for years.

Following a fatal fire in Lakanal House in south London in 2009, a series of recommendations were made to keep people safe.

They were ignored. The government promised a review of fire regulations in 2013, but it still has not happened.

BBC One's Panorama has obtained a dozen letters sent by the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group.

Informed by experts, it warned the government it "could not afford to wait for another tragedy".

Four ministers - all from the Department for Communities and Local Government - received letters but did not strengthen the regulations.

Ronnie King, a former chief fire officer who sits on the group, says the government has ignored repeated warnings about tower block safety.

"We have spent four years saying 'Listen, we have got the evidence, we've provided you with the evidence, there is clear public opinion towards this, you ought to move on this'," said Mr King.

After six people were killed at Lakanal House in 2009, the coroner made a series of safety recommendations for the government to consider.

The government department promised a review in 2013, but it was soon delayed.

In March 2014, the parliamentary group wrote: "Surely... when you already have credible evidence to justify updating... the guidance... which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?

"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"

After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."

The group replied to say they "were at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence, which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent".

"As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017 in, for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."

The letters were written before the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower.

One went to the-then Communities and Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles, who received a letter about fire regulations from the parliamentary group in February 2014.

He had also been asked to look at fire safety in February 2013 and March 2013 by two separate coroners, investigating two tower block fires.

In December 2015, the all-party group wrote to Conservative MP James Wharton, another minister in the department at the time, and warned about the risk of fires spreading on the outside of buildings with cladding.

"Today's buildings have a much higher content of readily available combustible material. Examples are timber and polystyrene mixes in structure, cladding and insulation.

"This fire hazard results in many fires because adequate recommendations to developers simply do not exist. There is little or no requirement to mitigate external fire spread."

The last of the four ministers in the department to receive a letter was Gavin Barwell, who has since moved on to become Theresa May's top aide. He received his letter from the parliamentary group in September last year.

In November, Mr Barwell replied to say his department had been looking at the regulations, and would make a statement "in due course".

In April this year, Mr Barwell wrote to say he did "acknowledge that producing a statement on building regulations has taken longer than I had envisaged".

The fire safety group pointed out that it had been "given a similar response by three successive ministers since 2010" and it "is now time to listen to what the Fire Sector is saying".

The government has said there is still no timetable for a review.

The Department for Communities and Local Government said that a police investigation into the Grenfell Fire is already under way "but it will be some time before it is fully understood how the fire started or why it took hold in the way it did."

In a statement, it added: "The government has acted to improve fire regulation and safety, including the recommendations made by the Coroner following the Lakanal House Fire.

"The final recommendation concerned simplification of fire safety guidance, and this work was under way, with a consultation due to be published this summer.

"Fire safety requirements are complex issues and our priority has been that we have high standards. A great deal of work has been completed, including commissioning and undertaking research to support the planned consultation. Clearly, in light of this tragic event, we need to reflect on whether this consultation is the correct next step to take. We will confirm our approach shortly."
Image copyright
AFP
Image caption
Well-wishers have been leaving tributes at Grenfell Tower

In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower.

They were called to a fridge fire, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat.

The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building.

The Fire Brigades Union say firefighters were left facing an unprecedented fire, and officers broke their own safety protocol to rescue people.

:huh: Why were the letters secret?

Quote from: The Brain on June 19, 2017, 10:51:11 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 19, 2017, 08:55:17 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:31:47 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 19, 2017, 08:26:03 PM
The moment firemen on the way to the Grenfell Tower fire realize what they're up against:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze)

That's not flammable cladding, that's flash paper.

Now, now, no use jumping to conclusions, you must wait the obligatory 4 years whilst the inquiry report is written, then another 2 years whilst it's kicked into touch the other side of a general election.  :bowler:

Rinse and repeat.

Oh drat thats already been done:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789)

Quote
Four ministers were warned about tower block fire risks

Four separate government ministers were warned that fire regulations were not keeping people safe, in letters that have subsequently been seen by the BBC.

In the leaked letters, experts warn that those living in tower blocks like Grenfell Tower were "at risk".

At least 79 people are dead or missing presumed dead after the fire at the London high-rise last week.

The department that received the letters said work to improve regulation and safety had already been under way.

The letters show experts have been worried about fire safety in tower blocks for years.

Following a fatal fire in Lakanal House in south London in 2009, a series of recommendations were made to keep people safe.

They were ignored. The government promised a review of fire regulations in 2013, but it still has not happened.

BBC One's Panorama has obtained a dozen letters sent by the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group.

Informed by experts, it warned the government it "could not afford to wait for another tragedy".

Four ministers - all from the Department for Communities and Local Government - received letters but did not strengthen the regulations.

Ronnie King, a former chief fire officer who sits on the group, says the government has ignored repeated warnings about tower block safety.

"We have spent four years saying 'Listen, we have got the evidence, we've provided you with the evidence, there is clear public opinion towards this, you ought to move on this'," said Mr King.

After six people were killed at Lakanal House in 2009, the coroner made a series of safety recommendations for the government to consider.

The government department promised a review in 2013, but it was soon delayed.

In March 2014, the parliamentary group wrote: "Surely... when you already have credible evidence to justify updating... the guidance... which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?

"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"

After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."

The group replied to say they "were at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence, which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent".

"As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017 in, for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."

The letters were written before the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower.

One went to the-then Communities and Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles, who received a letter about fire regulations from the parliamentary group in February 2014.

He had also been asked to look at fire safety in February 2013 and March 2013 by two separate coroners, investigating two tower block fires.

In December 2015, the all-party group wrote to Conservative MP James Wharton, another minister in the department at the time, and warned about the risk of fires spreading on the outside of buildings with cladding.

"Today's buildings have a much higher content of readily available combustible material. Examples are timber and polystyrene mixes in structure, cladding and insulation.

"This fire hazard results in many fires because adequate recommendations to developers simply do not exist. There is little or no requirement to mitigate external fire spread."

The last of the four ministers in the department to receive a letter was Gavin Barwell, who has since moved on to become Theresa May's top aide. He received his letter from the parliamentary group in September last year.

In November, Mr Barwell replied to say his department had been looking at the regulations, and would make a statement "in due course".

In April this year, Mr Barwell wrote to say he did "acknowledge that producing a statement on building regulations has taken longer than I had envisaged".

The fire safety group pointed out that it had been "given a similar response by three successive ministers since 2010" and it "is now time to listen to what the Fire Sector is saying".

The government has said there is still no timetable for a review.

The Department for Communities and Local Government said that a police investigation into the Grenfell Fire is already under way "but it will be some time before it is fully understood how the fire started or why it took hold in the way it did."

In a statement, it added: "The government has acted to improve fire regulation and safety, including the recommendations made by the Coroner following the Lakanal House Fire.

"The final recommendation concerned simplification of fire safety guidance, and this work was under way, with a consultation due to be published this summer.

"Fire safety requirements are complex issues and our priority has been that we have high standards. A great deal of work has been completed, including commissioning and undertaking research to support the planned consultation. Clearly, in light of this tragic event, we need to reflect on whether this consultation is the correct next step to take. We will confirm our approach shortly."
Image copyright
AFP
Image caption
Well-wishers have been leaving tributes at Grenfell Tower

In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower.

They were called to a fridge fire, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat.

The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building.

The Fire Brigades Union say firefighters were left facing an unprecedented fire, and officers broke their own safety protocol to rescue people.

:huh: Why were the letters secret?

:huh: Where did you read that the letters were secret?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:31:47 PM

Quote from: mongers on June 19, 2017, 08:26:03 PM
The moment firemen on the way to the Grenfell Tower fire realize what they're up against:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/40332427/grenfell-tower-fire-moment-firefighters-first-saw-the-blaze)

That's not flammable cladding, that's flash paper.

Pretty much
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/

QuoteGrenfell Tower firefighters put out fridge blaze 'and were just leaving when flats erupted in flames'

Danny Boyle
20 JUNE 2017 • 2:34PM

Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged.

Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed.

Shortly after dealing with the fridge fire early last Wednesday, firefighters were telling residents that it was out, BBC Panorama reported.

But, soon after, the 24-storey building was consumed by flames in one of Britain's biggest ever tower block fires that left at least 79 people dead.

Panorama on Monday night reported that firefighters had seen flames "shooting up" the side of the building. Those reports will add weight to claims that it was the cladding on the exterior of Grenfell Tower that caused the fire to spread so rapidly.

But Dave Green, national officer at the Fire Brigades Union, said the first firefighters at the scene might not have expected the outside of the building to be flammable.

The union official said that 1970s buildings like Grenfell Tower were designed so each flat was a box that contained fire within itself, with a non-flammable concrete exterior.

Mr Green said: "Clearly it was a hot night and if the (fire) was fairly close to an open window then potentially the flames could have got outside - if there were net curtains, something like that, it could have got up.

"Then the cladding might well have been smouldering.

"As a firefighter you wouldn't have thought to look outside. We would assume that the outside of the building would not be compromised."

The programme also disclosed that leaked letters show how ministers were repeatedly warned that fire regulations were not keeping people safe.

It said letters show ministers were warned that people living in high rise blocks such as Grenfell Tower were "at risk".

The dozen letters, sent by the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group in the aftermath of a 2009 fatal fire in Lakanal House, south London, warned the Government "could not afford to wait for another tragedy", according to Panorama.

The Parliamentary group wrote in March 2014: "Surely ... when you already have credible evidence to justify updating ... the guidance ... which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?

"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"

After further correspondence, then government minister Liberal Democrat Stephen Williams, replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."

The group replied: "We're at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent.

"As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017, in for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."

Former cabinet minister Sir Eric Pickles received a letter about fire regulations from the parliamentary group in February 2014, according to the BBC.

In December 2015, the all-party group wrote to the former Conservative minister James Wharton, and warned about the risk of fires spreading on the outside of buildings with cladding.

"Today's buildings have a much higher content of readily-available combustible material. Examples are timber and polystyrene mixes in structure, cladding and insulation.

"This fire hazard results in many fires because adequate recommendations to developers simply do not exist. There is little or no requirement to mitigate external fire spread."

Former Conservative minister Gavin Barwell, who was recently appointed Prime Minister Theresa May's chief of staff, received further calls for action in September last year.

In November 2016, Mr Barwell replied to say his department had been looking at the regulations, and would make a statement "in due course".

In April 2017 Mr Barwell wrote to say he did "acknowledge that producing a statement on building regulations has taken longer than I had envisaged", according to the BBC.

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 12:18:15 PM

Quote from: Eddie Teach on June 19, 2017, 12:15:15 PM
They may have just been after a bit of the old ultraviolence.

Typically rapists don't beat their victims to death with baseball bats.

EDIT: ... and none of the reports have mentioned sexual assault.

Well, yeah. It looks like a duck, but I'm ok with police making sure its not a goose before they say so.

I really wish some of these uncropped quotes were flammable.

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2017, 09:22:59 AM
:huh: Where did you read that the letters were secret?

In the BBC article. It said the letters were leaked.

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 09:30:06 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Seems like a good reason to post more links from Jezebel...

If only xojane.com were still active :(

Quote from: derspiess on June 20, 2017, 02:01:50 PM
If only xojane.com were still active :(

Luckily Teen Vogue is still going strong :)

Quote from: derspiess on June 20, 2017, 02:01:50 PM

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 09:30:06 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 19, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
Jezebel makes Ed's testicles crawl back up into his abdominal cavity, because they know they've been bad.

Seems like a good reason to post more links from Jezebel...

If only xojane.com were still active :(

How about Jezebel on xoJane?

http://jezebel.com/the-biggest-moments-in-xojane-history-1791157774

QuoteThe Biggest Moments in xoJane History

Quote from: Jacob on June 20, 2017, 02:57:29 PM

Quote from: derspiess on June 20, 2017, 02:01:50 PM
If only xojane.com were still active :(

Luckily Teen Vogue is still going strong :)

I get all my news from Highlights.

Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2017, 12:09:34 PM

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2017, 09:22:59 AM
:huh: Where did you read that the letters were secret?

In the BBC article. It said the letters were leaked.

The article never said that they were secret.  Why would an organization trying to improve public safety keep their goals a secret?  "Leaked" just means that official information was released without authorization.

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2017, 08:03:57 PM

Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2017, 12:09:34 PM

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2017, 09:22:59 AM
:huh: Where did you read that the letters were secret?

In the BBC article. It said the letters were leaked.

The article never said that they were secret.  Why would an organization trying to improve public safety keep their goals a secret?  "Leaked" just means that official information was released without authorization.

:lol: You will have to forgive me for not swallowing your private definition of "leak". A definition that A) you probably made up on the spot in an attempt to "win" this discussion and B) contradicts major dictionaries.

Did Brain just take a leak on grumbler's definition of leak?  :hmm:

The Brain, it appears, does not swallow.

Quote from: The Brain on June 21, 2017, 01:01:10 AM

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2017, 08:03:57 PM

Quote from: The Brain on June 20, 2017, 12:09:34 PM

Quote from: grumbler on June 20, 2017, 09:22:59 AM
:huh: Where did you read that the letters were secret?

In the BBC article. It said the letters were leaked.

The article never said that they were secret.  Why would an organization trying to improve public safety keep their goals a secret?  "Leaked" just means that official information was released without authorization.

:lol: You will have to forgive me for not swallowing your private definition of "leak". A definition that A) you probably made up on the spot in an attempt to "win" this discussion and B) contradicts major dictionaries.

Cool!  :D

You go on believing what you want about secret documents and shit, if that makes you happy.  No skin off me.

Quote from: Jacob on June 21, 2017, 07:09:21 PM
The Brain, it appears, does not swallow.

Secret letters that predict disasters ARE a lot more fun.  ;)

I don't believe everything the BBC says, and neither should any sensible person.

Apparently the burning clading released cyanide that may have caused fatalities. :o

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/22/grenfell-tower-victims-poisoned-cyanide-insulation-released/

My prediction - no one will serve any prison time, no matter how negligent or outright 'corrupt' their behaviour.  :bowler:

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 12:09:19 PM
Speaking of "we have no evidence it's linked to terrorism" - guy(s) beat a 17-year old Muslim girl to death with baseball bats: http://jezebel.com/seventeen-year-old-muslim-girl-captured-and-beaten-to-d-1796213476

QuoteNabra and her peers were observing the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, and their religious affiliation was evident. Yet detectives state that they have "not gotten any indication that this was motivated by hate or bias."

For those keeping score at home, the alleged murderer is an illegal alien from El Salvador. 

Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2017, 09:43:03 AM
For those keeping score at home, the alleged murderer is an illegal alien from El Salvador.

What's the the total score right now?

Quote from: derspiess on June 22, 2017, 09:43:03 AM

Quote from: Jacob on June 19, 2017, 12:09:19 PM
Speaking of "we have no evidence it's linked to terrorism" - guy(s) beat a 17-year old Muslim girl to death with baseball bats: http://jezebel.com/seventeen-year-old-muslim-girl-captured-and-beaten-to-d-1796213476

QuoteNabra and her peers were observing the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, and their religious affiliation was evident. Yet detectives state that they have "not gotten any indication that this was motivated by hate or bias."

For those keeping score at home, the alleged murderer is an illegal alien from El Salvador. 

There is a way to get the leftists on board Spicey!

'We need a wall to keep out Islamophobes.'