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#41

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Josquius - April 15, 2024, 02:06:02 PM

Something that needs to be said, since we glossed over it a bit to engage in arguing about minutiae of Iran's embassy being bombed (which is largely not actually very important), is the reason we in the West cannot trust "Palestinians", is because Palestinian is not a "natural" ethnic group.

Ethnic groups form over things like shared language, culture etc. The concept of a Palestinian nation exists and was created solely as a "negative nationalism", it is a concept that exists because Arabs don't view it as acceptable for Jews to have land and a country of their own. By its nature, identification as a Palestinian is membership in a group that exists solely as a negation of Israel.

If for whatever reason, a Jewish state had never been carved out of British Mandatory Palestine, if for example the Arabs won their initial war (which a large % of the posters in this thread would have preferred, and would likely gloss over or ignore the ensuing mass murder of Jews that would have occurred), there likely would not be a country called "Palestine" in that region. It would likely just be part of Jordan, and the Arabs living there would have no issue with that--because they were never "Palestinians", they were Arabs.

OK, so I'm pretty damn pro-Israeli, but I hate this argument.

First of all it's the exact same point that's being used, right now, in Ukraine - that Ukrainians aren't a "real" ethnicity - they're just Russians with a funny accent (despite the fact Ukrainian and Russian are quite distinct languages that aren't mutually intelligible except for the fact that many/most Ukrainians know Russian).

The language one is a rubbish one to go with really as just what is a language and a dialect (army and navy excepted).
Ukrainian and Russian are different languages and not mutually intelligible, the ones with the less prestigious version know "standard" as well as their local variety... But then you could say the same of English and many of its dialects.
A language being a language hasnt too much to do with intellgibility.
Then again if it is a factor then if we're talking about Arabic....

But that same argument can be used against many other countries as well.  What makes Austria a real country - they speak German after all.  What about the numerous English speaking countries around the world?  Why is Belgium a country - they just speak French and Dutch?  or on the other side - why is "India" considered a country despite its large number of languages spoken?

The thing is -that for a variety of factors there are several million people who identify as being "Palestinians".  Not Jordanians, or Egyptians, or "Arabians", and certainly not as Israelis.  And that's good enough for me.

What you do about the Palestinians is a complicated question, which is why it hasn't been solved in the last 75+ years.  But you can't deny their existence.

Also the whole thing that being a unique "people" is somehow all that matters.
It's basically like saying Russia annexing everything east of the Dnipro is totally fine since the Ukrainians have a nation - the land west of the river.

#42

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by OttoVonBismarck - April 15, 2024, 02:05:01 PM

There's a massive difference between Ukrainian vs Russian. Ukrainian cultural identity in some forms is pushing 1000 years old as distinct from Russia. Vs Arab has been seen as a unified cultural identity that is not fragmented along the lines of British/French map drawers (whether it is an ethnic identity is more complex, as a number of Arab speaking peoples identify with the concept of a shared Arab culture but don't view themselves as being the same ethnicity--commonly this stance is found among North Africans and Egyptians.)

Arabs largely rejected the idea that their British/French drawn states defined their cultural identity back when it was partitioned, and I would argue the vast majority of the Arab world views itself as "Arab." It is really only the Palestinians who push the idea they are their own separate thing, but they also only push it in the sense that it serves them. In other contexts they identify as Arabs.

The duplicity on this topic is pretty severe--because their position looks a lot worse if you realize it is "Arabs being mad that instead of getting control of 100% of territory they want, they only got 95%."

#43

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Barrister - April 15, 2024, 01:58:10 PM

Under Ottoman rule the Arabs were tribal but mostly desired to establish a nation-state called Arabia and that was the basis of the 1916 "Great Revolt."  The future colonizers of the region, the UK and France, worked to ensure that tribal and ethnic differences would doom any such attempt and allow the colonizers to play different Arab groups against one another; classic "divide and conquer."  The Palestinian identity dates from that period, as does the Saudi identity, Syrian, etc.  "Palestinians" exist as a distinct nationality as much as the Syrians, Iraqis, Omanis, and whatnot.

No one considers Syrian / Jordanian / Iraqi etc ethnicities today, more emphasizing my point. They are viewed as majority Arab countries (with a few outlier minority groups.) Pretty infamously all of these countries still have strong tribal / clan affiliations and weak affiliation with their state identifier.

Ethnicity isn't the same as nationality though.

If you ask your typical Syrian / Jordanian / Iraqi what their "identity" is, they will say Syrian, Jordanian, Iraqi.

Now you can throw in the Kurds or course, who do have asperations of their own nation, and who do identify as "Kurdish", but I don't think that takes away from the larger point.  Iraq is a nation divided between different religious faiths and different tribal identities - but except for the Kurds they all identify as being Iraqi.

#44

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Barrister - April 15, 2024, 01:55:39 PM

Something that needs to be said, since we glossed over it a bit to engage in arguing about minutiae of Iran's embassy being bombed (which is largely not actually very important), is the reason we in the West cannot trust "Palestinians", is because Palestinian is not a "natural" ethnic group.

Ethnic groups form over things like shared language, culture etc. The concept of a Palestinian nation exists and was created solely as a "negative nationalism", it is a concept that exists because Arabs don't view it as acceptable for Jews to have land and a country of their own. By its nature, identification as a Palestinian is membership in a group that exists solely as a negation of Israel.

If for whatever reason, a Jewish state had never been carved out of British Mandatory Palestine, if for example the Arabs won their initial war (which a large % of the posters in this thread would have preferred, and would likely gloss over or ignore the ensuing mass murder of Jews that would have occurred), there likely would not be a country called "Palestine" in that region. It would likely just be part of Jordan, and the Arabs living there would have no issue with that--because they were never "Palestinians", they were Arabs.

OK, so I'm pretty damn pro-Israeli, but I hate this argument.

First of all it's the exact same point that's being used, right now, in Ukraine - that Ukrainians aren't a "real" ethnicity - they're just Russians with a funny accent (despite the fact Ukrainian and Russian are quite distinct languages that aren't mutually intelligible except for the fact that many/most Ukrainians know Russian).

But that same argument can be used against many other countries as well.  What makes Austria a real country - they speak German after all.  What about the numerous English speaking countries around the world?  Why is Belgium a country - they just speak French and Dutch?  or on the other side - why is "India" considered a country despite its large number of languages spoken?

The thing is -that for a variety of factors there are several million people who identify as being "Palestinians".  Not Jordanians, or Egyptians, or "Arabians", and certainly not as Israelis.  And that's good enough for me.

What you do about the Palestinians is a complicated question, which is why it hasn't been solved in the last 75+ years.  But you can't deny their existence.

#45

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by grumbler - April 15, 2024, 01:55:11 PM

Syria and Iraq might not be the best examples of a matured national identity.

True, but no one argues that Syria does not exist, as OvB does for Palestine.

#46

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by OttoVonBismarck - April 15, 2024, 01:44:17 PM

Under Ottoman rule the Arabs were tribal but mostly desired to establish a nation-state called Arabia and that was the basis of the 1916 "Great Revolt."  The future colonizers of the region, the UK and France, worked to ensure that tribal and ethnic differences would doom any such attempt and allow the colonizers to play different Arab groups against one another; classic "divide and conquer."  The Palestinian identity dates from that period, as does the Saudi identity, Syrian, etc.  "Palestinians" exist as a distinct nationality as much as the Syrians, Iraqis, Omanis, and whatnot.

No one considers Syrian / Jordanian / Iraqi etc ethnicities today, more emphasizing my point. They are viewed as majority Arab countries (with a few outlier minority groups.) Pretty infamously all of these countries still have strong tribal / clan affiliations and weak affiliation with their state identifier.

#47

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Tamas - April 15, 2024, 01:32:57 PM

Syria and Iraq might not be the best examples of a matured national identity.

#48

Gaming HQ / Re: PSA: Game Discounts

Last post by grumbler - April 15, 2024, 01:16:00 PM

I have not played any of them, is there one that stands the test of time

New Vegas.  Most atmosphere and by far the best quests.

#49

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by grumbler - April 15, 2024, 01:07:47 PM

Under Ottoman rule the Arabs were tribal but mostly desired to establish a nation-state called Arabia and that was the basis of the 1916 "Great Revolt."  The future colonizers of the region, the UK and France, worked to ensure that tribal and ethnic differences would doom any such attempt and allow the colonizers to play different Arab groups against one another; classic "divide and conquer."  The Palestinian identity dates from that period, as does the Saudi identity, Syrian, etc.  "Palestinians" exist as a distinct nationality as much as the Syrians, Iraqis, Omanis, and whatnot.

#50

Off the Record / Re: Israel-Hamas War 2023

Last post by Josquius - April 15, 2024, 01:00:52 PM

Something that needs to be said, since we glossed over it a bit to engage in arguing about minutiae of Iran's embassy being bombed (which is largely not actually very important), is the reason we in the West cannot trust "Palestinians", is because Palestinian is not a "natural" ethnic group.

Ethnic groups form over things like shared language, culture etc. The concept of a Palestinian nation exists and was created solely as a "negative nationalism", it is a concept that exists because Arabs don't view it as acceptable for Jews to have land and a country of their own. By its nature, identification as a Palestinian is membership in a group that exists solely as a negation of Israel.

If for whatever reason, a Jewish state had never been carved out of British Mandatory Palestine, if for example the Arabs won their initial war (which a large % of the posters in this thread would have preferred, and would likely gloss over or ignore the ensuing mass murder of Jews that would have occurred), there likely would not be a country called "Palestine" in that region. It would likely just be part of Jordan, and the Arabs living there would have no issue with that--because they were never "Palestinians", they were Arabs.

See also top 10 examples of clichéd Israeli extremist propeganda.


1: There's far more nations in the world born out of this "negative nationalism" than the more "positive" (not really) sort of Europe.
2: Palestine as a place and the Palestinians as from there long predates zionism.

The Palestinians are just Jordanians thus ethnic cleansing is fine stuff is such weakly masked fascist bollocks. Wrong on so many levels.