Israel-Hamas War 2023

[grumbler]

(snip of bogus Wiki article)

Who's inventing what?

Whatever person wrote that wiki article (maybe Josq) is inventing that history.  The referenced article for the claim isn't written by D. G. Kelley and doesn't even mention Kelly. 

Don't use Wiki as an authoritative source. Use Wiki only to find the actual source (which, AFAICT, does not exist for this claim).

Hot Tip:  Wiki typically sources it's claims, just click on the little number behind the statement and use that as a source.  It works surprisingly well!  Unless the source doesn't say what Wiki says it does...

Hot tip:  you cannot have my argument.

[crazy canuck]

The slogan isn't "Palestinians will be free"  It is "Palestine will be free".  They don't want freedom in the western sense anymore than the Afghanis who supported the Taliban wanted freedom.  It is a nationalist call.

I'm impressed you have an understanding of what every single Palestinian, and every single Palestinian supporter believes. It must've taken years of research for you to come to that kind of understanding.

Of course I jest, this thread is devolving into hyperbole.

So are you holding out hope that there is some hidden faction of Palestinians who want a liberal democracy of peace and tolerance that has overwhelming support?  Face it, the majority would go with a Hamas or Hamas-style dictatorship if given a chance.  That's the political culture there.  Democracy is pretty scarce on the ground in that part of the world.

They are not hidden at all 

[Valmy]

The latest PO poll I saw with Palestinians saw the majority favoring no solution at all, having given up hope of any solution whatsoever.

Yeah well, I see no reason to disagree with them.

[crazy canuck]

The latest PO poll I saw with Palestinians saw the majority favoring no solution at all, having given up hope of any solution whatsoever.

Yeah well, I see no reason to disagree with them.

Yeah, it's hard to support a proposed solution when none is currently viable.

[Razgovory]

The slogan isn't "Palestinians will be free"  It is "Palestine will be free".  They don't want freedom in the western sense anymore than the Afghanis who supported the Taliban wanted freedom.  It is a nationalist call.

I'm impressed you have an understanding of what every single Palestinian, and every single Palestinian supporter believes. It must've taken years of research for you to come to that kind of understanding.

Of course I jest, this thread is devolving into hyperbole.

So are you holding out hope that there is some hidden faction of Palestinians who want a liberal democracy of peace and tolerance that has overwhelming support?  Face it, the majority would go with a Hamas or Hamas-style dictatorship if given a chance.  That's the political culture there.  Democracy is pretty scarce on the ground in that part of the world.

They are not hidden at all 

What's the name of this faction?

[Razgovory]

Public opinion polls have historically consistently shown that a majority of Palestinians prefer a two-state solution with a liberal democratic Palestine.  You won't find that majority today, because their women and children are being murdered.  Similarly, public opinion polls have historically consistently shown that a majority of Israelis prefer a two-state solution with a liberal democratic Palestine.  You won't find that majority today, because their women and children were murdered.

The latest PO poll I saw with Palestinians saw the majority favoring no solution at all, having given up hope of any solution whatsoever.

"historically"  Like in 1948?  1967?  1973?  The Palestinians only began to come around to a two state solution when the Arab armies had failed and their allies had abandoned them.  Even then it was often pitched as a "truce" not a peace.

This poll from '21 shows only 39% support for a two state solution.  59% are opposed. 16% supported a one state solution where Jews and Arabs had equal rights.  Long before the current war.

Opps, forgot the poll https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/866

[crazy canuck]

The slogan isn't "Palestinians will be free"  It is "Palestine will be free".  They don't want freedom in the western sense anymore than the Afghanis who supported the Taliban wanted freedom.  It is a nationalist call.

I'm impressed you have an understanding of what every single Palestinian, and every single Palestinian supporter believes. It must've taken years of research for you to come to that kind of understanding.

Of course I jest, this thread is devolving into hyperbole.

So are you holding out hope that there is some hidden faction of Palestinians who want a liberal democracy of peace and tolerance that has overwhelming support?  Face it, the majority would go with a Hamas or Hamas-style dictatorship if given a chance.  That's the political culture there.  Democracy is pretty scarce on the ground in that part of the world.

They are not hidden at all 

What's the name of this faction?

Palestinian people.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, we've been banking on Middle East adopting a tolerant democracy for 20 years now.  You know, like Iraq.  Or Syria.  Or Libya.  Or Afghanistan.  Take Egypt as example.  They're right next door.  What did the people do there as soon the reins were loosened?  They went Islamist and the army over threw the government. 

[viper37]

(snip of bogus Wiki article)
Who's inventing what?

Whatever person wrote that wiki article (maybe Josq) is inventing that history.  The referenced article for the claim isn't written by D. G. Kelley and doesn't even mention Kelly. 
Don't use Wiki as an authoritative source. Use Wiki only to find the actual source (which, AFAICT, does not exist for this claim).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel
That is a thing.  It was a thing when Israel was created, and it was a debate just before the revolution.  Nothing of the sort was used, and nothing too religious was used in the foundation texts because the creation of Israel was to be a stepping stone until all of Eretz Israel belonged to the Jewish people.  That was very clear from the beginning, only docile Palestinians would be allowed to remain.

You can argue about the specific words, but it's always been there on the Israeli side and then moved on the Palestinian side as Israel gained most of the territory.

https://www.972mag.com/btselem-israel-apartheid-supremacy/


Personally, I don't have a problem with the slogan, anymore than Black Lives Matters.

Some will misuse it, and you could argue ad infinitum that All lives matters, but it's rather pointless.  A political slogan is a political slogan.  There is nothing wrong per se with Make American Great Again.  What you mean by that, what you intend to do with that political will is what is wrong.  Yes We Can coming from Obama, and Yes we can coming from Trump would not have the same meaning.


From the river to the sea is just the same.  Israelis used a variation of it to justify expelling Palestinians from their lands.  Then Palestinians appropriated the slogan to justify their military and terrorist actions to expel Israelis from their lands and regain it.

Some use it to express the desire of a one state solution, others the dream of a Palestinian State, free of Israeli colonization.  Hamas use it for something else, obviously.  Raz believes all Palestinians belong the Hamas.  He's entitles to his racist shitty views, like every Maga believers.  I'll have the last laugh.

Unless you are a mind reader, it's extremely difficult to know which individual means what when he express the slogan.  I'm sure we see the slogan with Nazi symbols, I'm sure we see the slogan with other racist actions, but that does not make everyone who oppose Israel policies a vicious anti-semite that dream of reopening the camps.

[Oexmelin]

If only people shouted comprehensive peace plans during demonstrations.

[Tamas]

If only people shouted comprehensive peace plans during demonstrations.

Et tu, Oex?

[Admiral Yi]

I would settle for shouting what you mean and standing behind the word coming out of your own mouth.

[Valmy]

If only people shouted comprehensive peace plans during demonstrations.

Well that wouldn't work. Vagueness is key to keep a movement going. Once you have to get everybody to agree about fishing rights it all falls apart.

[crazy canuck]

If only people shouted comprehensive peace plans during demonstrations.

 

[crazy canuck]

I would settle for shouting what you mean and standing behind the word coming out of your own mouth.

That's what they are doing, regardless of what the chanters intend the meaning to be.