Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Sheilbh]

From the Jerusalem Post reporting on what happened:

According to an initial probe, the hostages were standing near a building with the words "help" and "SOS" spray-painted on its exterior walls.

In addition, the IDF also found a message saying "three hostages – help," on the buildings two days before the deadly altercation.

Initially, the military avoided the buildings with those messages believing that they were Hamas traps.

Eventually, one IDF soldier came into direct eye contact with the three hostages at a distance of dozens of meters.

The hostages raised a white flag, cried for help, and kept their upper bodies bare so that no one would suspect they were hiding a bomb under their shirts.

One IDF soldier fired on the three hostages.

Subsequently, the army has concluded that this initial fire killed two of the hostages, but only wounded the third one, who ran back into the building from which he had exited with the other two.

At this stage, the battalion commander called on all IDF forces to cease fire as an operational matter to allow other forces in nearby buildings to exit without being hit by friendly fire.

Some minutes later, the wounded third hostage exited the building again, pleading for a second time to be saved. Two different sets of soldiers other than the original soldier who killed the other two shot him dead.

[Solmyr]

There's really no way to spin this in a good way. IDF fucked up.

[viper37]

I don't know if they've always been like that or if it's the result of years under Bibi that turned the IDF into this.  They were prone stand by and let others do the killing during the war in Lebanon, but nowadays, it seems they take pleasure in shooting unarmed civilians.

And of course, anyone who dares question Israel is a racist.

Probably panicky reservists?

It if was just one isolated incident, yes.
But it's a pattern with Palestinians.  And they usually say they were terrorists.

When they're not shot and killed, they are being degraded, paraded half naked and often beaten.

If these 3 hostages had been Palestinian civilians, this is the story that would have been spinned: "3 terrorists came out attacking and throwing rocks and explosives at our soldiers who fealt threatened and defended themselves bravely".

[Threviel]

Yeah, an enemy that uses every dirty trick in the book does that to you.

We don't know the particulars, right now it looks bad on the IDF, but I haven't seen their side of it yet.

For all we know the Gazans have pretended to be hostages a 100 times before they sent out real hostages. We don't know exactly what happened, but it sure does not look good on the IDF right now.

[Sheilbh]

This is their side of it. This is from the IDF's statements to the press in Israel as reported by the Jerusalem Post and others.

The IDF have said the rules of engagement were broken.

[Threviel]

Thanks, I missed it for all anti-semitism. God damn, that is incompetent.

[Josquius]

It really is a wonder that if they do this to some Israelis, how many times they've done this to innocent Palestinians without the worlds media ready to jump on the IDF.
I hope (probably in vein) any investigation goes much deeper than just this one incident.

[Sheilbh]

Thanks, I missed it for all anti-semitism. God damn, that is incompetent.

Understandable enough - I've found the Jerusalem Post and Israeli commentators are fairly robust and helpful for me. I have found on a few issues there's a gap between that and what's going on in this thread though.

[Threviel]

I'm rather seeing my first instinct correct. They assumed it was a trap due to the ever present war crimes of the Gazans. This might be house #485 indicating hostages inside.

Logic also dictates that every sign outside is put there by the Gazans, the hostages can be assumed to not escape and then paint a house with their presence.

Still, it worked due to the incompetence of the IDF and gave fodder to anti-semites like viper and useful idiots aping after.


Edit: Not in response to Sheilbh

[Tamas]

Yeah, not like actually shooting these guys is excusable, but if the IDF ignored their "help we are hostages here" signs for days it must be because they have been duped into traps and ambushes by similar messages.

[Threviel]

Yeah, or they are incompetent and we are duped by our anti-anti-semitism.

Occam indicates this chain of events to be happening often and this time the Gazans won.

[Razgovory]

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-778327

Two-thirds (About 67%) of young Americans between the ages of 18-24 believe that Jews as a class are oppressors and should be treated as oppressors, according to a new poll conducted by Harris Insights and Analytics and Harvard University's Center for American Political Studies (CAPS).

The poll, conducted among about 2,000 registered voters in the US, additionally found that more than half (51%) of 18-24 year olds believe that the long-term answer for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is for "Israel to be ended and given to Hamas and the Palestinians," although another question on the poll, asking if Israel has the right to exist, found that 69% of that cohort believe that Israel does have the right to exist.

Despite the data above, bipartisan support for Israel among Americans in general remains high, according to the poll. Some 63% of Democrats and 71% of Republicans believe that the US should be supporting Israel in the war against Hamas.

Support for aid to Israel that was recently approved is high as well among Republicans and Democrats, although more than half of independent voters oppose such aid.

Additionally, 84% of Americans said they believe that the October 7 massacre was a terrorist attack, with almost three-fourths (73%) saying it was genocidal in nature and 73% saying it was not justified by the grievances of Palestinians.

On October 7, Hamas launched a brutal attack on Israel that took the lives of 1,200 people. The terrorist group also abducted over 230 individuals - some of whom were US citizens.

Among Americans between the ages of 18-24, some 73% also said they thought it was a terrorist attack and three-fourths (66%) said it was genocidal in nature, but 60% also said that it could be justified by the grievances of Palestinians.

Additionally, while 81% of all Americans said they support Israel over Hamas, only half of Americans between the ages of 18-24 felt the same.

Americans believe Israel trying to avoid civilian casualties in defensive war
When asked if they think Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties in the war against Hamas, 69% of Americans said that they believe Israel is trying to avoid such casualties. The percentage of Americans between the ages of 18-24 who thought the same was actually higher than the national average at 70%.

The majority of Americans (63%) also believe that Israel is just trying to defend itself, although the majority of Americans between the ages of 18-24 and between the ages of 25-34 believe that Israel is committing genocide.

Additionally, the vast majority of Americans (81%) said that Israel has a right to defend itself against terror attacks by "launching air strikes on targets in heavily populated Palestinian areas with warnings to those citizens." In contrast to the results on some other questions, this option had widespread support among young Americans, with a similar number (80%) of 18-24 year olds saying that Israel does have the right to defend itself in such a way. This percentage was slightly lower among 25-44 year olds.

A large majority of respondents (69%) said they were either following the war very closely or somewhat closely. In the youngest age category, 81% said they were following the war. In the next ascending age category, aged 25-34, 68% said they were following the war. Three-quarters of respondents aged 35-44, 58% of those aged 45-54, 62% aged 55-64 and 76% aged 65+ said the same.

Most young Americans support ceasefire that would leave hostages in Gaza
The poll additionally found that two-thirds of Americans between the ages of 18-24 are in favor of an unconditional ceasefire that would leave the hostages in Gaza and Hamas in power. Some 64% of Americans said that a ceasefire should only happen once the hostages are all released and Hamas is removed from power.

A similar question, asking if Israel should cease all hostilities now or keep going until Hamas is defeated and the hostages are released, found that 63% of Americans agree, while the sentiment is basically reversed among 18-24 year olds, with 57% of them thinking Israel should cease all hostilities now. 

Additionally, almost three-fourths (74%) of Americans said they believe Hamas wants to commit genocide against the Jews in Israel, although only 58% of those between the ages of 18-24 said the same.

When asked if they think Hamas is an organization that can be negotiated with to create peace, more than three-fourths (76%) of 18-24 year olds agree. Among the totality of Americans, 64% disagree, saying that they believe Hamas is dedicated only to the destruction of Israel.

Two-thirds of Americans (66%) believe that Hamas is not supported by the majority of Gazans, although a similar number of those between the ages of 18-24 (64%) don't.

The vast majority of Americans (80%) believe that Hamas uses civilians as human shields – and three-fourths said they believe that Hamas, not Israel, is primarily responsible for putting Gazan civilians in harm's way.

Additionally, almost three-fourths of Americans (73%) said Hamas is primarily responsible for triggering the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, while a slight majority of Americans 18-24 said that Israel is primarily responsible.

The vast majority of Americans (81%) believe that Hamas should be removed from running Gaza, with a majority of Americans between the ages of 18-24 (58%) feeling the same.

Americans are split on who should run Gaza if Hamas is removed, with more than a third (34%) saying that Israel should, 27% that the Palestinian Authority should, and 38% saying that it should be a new authority set up with Arab nations.

Among 18-24 year olds who were asked this question, nearly half (45%) answered that Israel should administer the Gaza Strip, followed by 41% saying the PA should, and 14% saying a new authority should. Among 25-44 year olds, the largest portion of respondents also supported Israel administering the Strip, while among Americans 45 years old and older, most supported the establishment of a new authority.

Americans aware of growing antisemitism in US
In terms of antisemitism in the US, three-quarters of respondents said that they think antisemitism is growing in the US and almost two-thirds (65%) said they think discrimination against Muslims is growing there. Additionally, 68% think that antisemitism is prevalent on university campuses and 76% said Jewish students on campuses are facing harassment over being Jewish.

When asked "if a student calls for the genocide of Jews, should that student be told that they are free to call for genocide or should such students face actions for violating university rules?" more than half (53%) of Americans between the ages of 18-24 said that such a student should be told that they are free to call for genocide. Among the totality of American respondents, almost three-fourths (74%) said that such a student should face actions for violating university rules.

In comparison, 70% of Americans between the ages of 18-24 said that protesters on campuses calling for the genocide of Jews does constitute hate speech. Among the totality of American respondents, the response was basically reversed, with 79% saying that they do.

Additionally, 71% of Americans between the ages of 18-24 believe that calling for the genocide of Jews on campuses constitutes harassment. Among the totality of American respondents, 82% agreed.

When asked who they think is responsible for antisemitism on campuses, 24% of Americans said it's always been there, 20% said students, 18% said left-wing political movements, 11% said university presidents, another 11% said foreign funding of universities, 7% said university professors, and 8% said that none of the above were responsible.

Americans unhappy with university presidents' response to antisemitism
While most Americans (62%) said that they felt that university presidents did not go far enough to condemn antisemitism on their campuses during recent congressional testimony, 67% of those between the ages of 18-24 said they thought that the presidents did.

Regarding whether "university presidents who said that calls for the genocide of Jews on their campuses are not necessarily a violation of their school's code of conduct and harassment policies because it 'depends on the context' or 'whether speech turns into conduct'" should resign, almost three-fourths (74%) of Americans said that they should, as did a similar number (73%) of those between the ages of 18-24.

Approval of university presidents in general was low among Americans, with 64% saying that university presidents were failing to lead the next generation. Americans between the ages of 18-24 were split on the matter, with 51% saying university presidents are showing the right leadership and 49% saying they were failing to lead.

Most Americans believe US should respond to attacks by Iran Axis
The poll also asked respondents if the US should respond to attacks it's undergoing from Iran-backed proxies in the region with strikes against these groups, or if it should just defend itself, with three-fourths (67%) of Americans saying the US should respond with strikes. Among those between the ages of 18-24, only 58% agreed.

When asked if US President Joe Biden has been acting forcefully enough against such attacks against US forces, Americans were split 50-50. Additionally, most Americans believe Biden's policy on Iran has been unsuccessful, although a slight majority of Americans between the ages of 18-24 believe it has been successful.

[Josquius]

Worth cross referencing with how many people in that age group have a clue who any of these groups are, or where Palestine, or hell, the middle east, is on a map.
The conflicting responses to questions asked a different way makes me suspect the results here wouldn't be great

[Tamas]

Worth cross referencing with how many people in that age group have a clue who any of these groups are, or where Palestine, or hell, the middle east, is on a map.
The conflicting responses to questions asked a different way makes me suspect the results here wouldn't be great

Yeah to be fair you are almost certainly right. But I am not sure it makes it better, though.

[Josquius]

Worth cross referencing with how many people in that age group have a clue who any of these groups are, or where Palestine, or hell, the middle east, is on a map.
The conflicting responses to questions asked a different way makes me suspect the results here wouldn't be great

Yeah to be fair you are almost certainly right. But I am not sure it makes it better, though.

I'm more optimistic.
I would like to hope the naiive view of the young is "Everyone should just get along and live together without killing each other". In contrast to the naiive view of older people- "Kill, kill 'em all" (usually meaning the Arabs)