Israel-Hamas War 2023

[OttoVonBismarck]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

This post can have one interpretation—you don't accept that Israel has a right to exist. All but typical of Israel haters (and let's be honest, Jew haters.)

[viper37]

they do far more damage to their own people than they'll ever do to Israel.

Why do you think Netanyahu was so happy to turn a blind eye to their activities?  Israel has been propping them since their foundation.

They have not. This is a common fake fuck claim from ass hat lefties.

No, it's pretty well documented.

The leader of the Islamic Brotherhood was arrested by Israel.  They had information coming from the PLO that he was buying weapons and mounting an armed resistance group and promoting terror.

At the time, Israel was funding the Muslim Brotherhood as they thought they would be a good counter-balance to the secular leadership of the Palestinan resistance.

They interrogated him and he told them he was arming his group only to fight against the other Palestinians. So Israel was all too happy to liberate him.

Look up Yitzhak Segev and his testimony.  He tried warning his superiors about what they were doing, but nobody listened.

More recently, you have the 1 billion US$ Quatari funds that Netanyahy let flow into Gaza toward the Hamas.

And all the other small things meant to encourage the Hamas, rather than the PA.

[viper37]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

This post can have one interpretation—you don't accept that Israel has a right to exist. All but typical of Israel haters (and let's be honest, Jew haters.)

Ah, I am unmasked.  I secretly hate Jews.

You've already admitted you hate Arabs, so clearly it's no surprise that you do not want a free Palestinian State.

I've stated my position about Israel multiple times before since this forum exists and before: 1967 borders, alongside a free Palestinian State.  No colonies on the West Bank.

I don't much care about the lives of murderous settlers in the West Bank.  They love to attack and kill civilian Palestinians, it's of no concern to me when Palestinians retaliate.  All they have to do is learn to live in peace and stop shooting at civilians.  A life is a life, contrary to what you and Raz imply.

[OttoVonBismarck]

they do far more damage to their own people than they'll ever do to Israel.

Why do you think Netanyahu was so happy to turn a blind eye to their activities?  Israel has been propping them since their foundation.

They have not. This is a common fake fuck claim from ass hat lefties.

No, it's pretty well documented.

The leader of the Islamic Brotherhood was arrested by Israel.  They had information coming from the PLO that he was buying weapons and mounting an armed resistance group and promoting terror.

At the time, Israel was funding the Muslim Brotherhood as they thought they would be a good counter-balance to the secular leadership of the Palestinan resistance.

They interrogated him and he told them he was arming his group only to fight against the other Palestinians. So Israel was all too happy to liberate him.

Look up Yitzhak Segev and his testimony.  He tried warning his superiors about what they were doing, but nobody listened.

More recently, you have the 1 billion US$ Quatari funds that Netanyahy let flow into Gaza toward the Hamas.

And all the other small things meant to encourage the Hamas, rather than the PA.

"It is pretty well documented" then you go on to document things that don't match the oft repeated lefty claim that Netanyahu, or Israel in general, has "propped up Hamas."

Prior to Israel occupying Gaza, Islamist movements like the Muslim Brotherhood and its more radical offshoots were prohibited by Egypt.

When Israel occupied the strip, they largely dropped these prohibitions. The early precursor to Hamas was publicly operating as an Islamist activist and charitable group, but disavowed violence. It is this entity Israel gave direct support to—and they did imagine Islamist groups of this nature could be a bulwark against what was viewed (at the time) as more dangerous Pan-Arab Nationalism.

When it was discovered Hamas was covertly involved in bombings and other terrorist activity Israel did arrest their leader and stopped directly supporting them financially.

It is true they released the leader a short while later—but Israel has actually had various cycles of releasing Palestinian militants. Further, the guy was an elderly quadriplegic.

It should be noted that throughout the entire Arab world at this same time, militant Islamism was growing, Pan-Arab nationalism was on decline. Israel doesn't control societal changes across the entire Middle East.

Trying to at all suggest Islamist militant groups like Hamas would not have appeared, in line with all other Arab countries, save for minor Israeli financial support 35 years ago is stupid and wrong.

Israel has largely not "supported" Hamas since its nature as an active terrorist group was established.

It is true that Netanyahu and others of his party viewed Hamas as "useful" in an "enemy of my enemy" sense, they viewed Hamas as weak and manageable, and a unified Palestine under the PLO/PNA as an existential threat. This isn't the same thing as "propping up" Hamas.

Basically all modern claims of Israel "propping up" Hamas seem to conflate "allowing basic humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas, and periodically allowing rapprochement attempts to progress and Hamas' gulf allies to openly send them money they were going to covertly send them anyway." It is a strange and frankly stupid interpretation to call this "propping" up.

[OttoVonBismarck]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

This post can have one interpretation—you don't accept that Israel has a right to exist. All but typical of Israel haters (and let's be honest, Jew haters.)

Ah, I am unmasked.  I secretly hate Jews.

You've already admitted you hate Arabs, so clearly it's no surprise that you do not want a free Palestinian State.

I've stated my position about Israel multiple times before since this forum exists and before: 1967 borders, alongside a free Palestinian State.  No colonies on the West Bank.

I don't much care about the lives of murderous settlers in the West Bank.  They love to attack and kill civilian Palestinians, it's of no concern to me when Palestinians retaliate.  All they have to do is learn to live in peace and stop shooting at civilians.  A life is a life, contrary to what you and Raz imply.

I hate Muslims, not Arabs. There is a big difference. It is wrong to hate people for who they are innately (Arabs being a linguistic / quasi-ethnic group.) Hating people for believing and promoting evil ideas is not wrong. Islam is evil. Arabs are not. And I separate out Muslims from their religion to a degree—I hate Muslims for what they believe, but many Muslim individuals are capable of being mostly good people in day to day life.

[viper37]

I hate Muslims, not Arabs. There is a big difference. It is wrong to hate people for who they are innately (Arabs being a linguistic / quasi-ethnic group.) Hating people for believing and promoting evil ideas is not wrong. Islam is evil. Arabs are not. And I separate out Muslims from their religion to a degree—I hate Muslims for what they believe, but many Muslim individuals are capable of being mostly good people in day to day life.

Right.  You hate them for the religion they follow, so it's bigotry.

It's not much different from the guy who says he's not racist because he has Black friends.

Not all of them are terrorist sympathizers, just like not all Jews blindly follow Bibi.

[viper37]

they do far more damage to their own people than they'll ever do to Israel.

Why do you think Netanyahu was so happy to turn a blind eye to their activities?  Israel has been propping them since their foundation.

They have not. This is a common fake fuck claim from ass hat lefties.

No, it's pretty well documented.

The leader of the Islamic Brotherhood was arrested by Israel.  They had information coming from the PLO that he was buying weapons and mounting an armed resistance group and promoting terror.

At the time, Israel was funding the Muslim Brotherhood as they thought they would be a good counter-balance to the secular leadership of the Palestinan resistance.

They interrogated him and he told them he was arming his group only to fight against the other Palestinians. So Israel was all too happy to liberate him.

Look up Yitzhak Segev and his testimony.  He tried warning his superiors about what they were doing, but nobody listened.

More recently, you have the 1 billion US$ Quatari funds that Netanyahy let flow into Gaza toward the Hamas.

And all the other small things meant to encourage the Hamas, rather than the PA.

"It is pretty well documented" then you go on to document things that don't match the oft repeated lefty claim that Netanyahu, or Israel in general, has "propped up Hamas."

Prior to Israel occupying Gaza, Islamist movements like the Muslim Brotherhood and its more radical offshoots were prohibited by Egypt.

When Israel occupied the strip, they largely dropped these prohibitions. The early precursor to Hamas was publicly operating as an Islamist activist and charitable group, but disavowed violence. It is this entity Israel gave direct support to—and they did imagine Islamist groups of this nature could be a bulwark against what was viewed (at the time) as more dangerous Pan-Arab Nationalism.

When it was discovered Hamas was covertly involved in bombings and other terrorist activity Israel did arrest their leader and stopped directly supporting them financially.

It is true they released the leader a short while later—but Israel has actually had various cycles of releasing Palestinian militants. Further, the guy was an elderly quadriplegic.

It should be noted that throughout the entire Arab world at this same time, militant Islamism was growing, Pan-Arab nationalism was on decline. Israel doesn't control societal changes across the entire Middle East.

Trying to at all suggest Islamist militant groups like Hamas would not have appeared, in line with all other Arab countries, save for minor Israeli financial support 35 years ago is stupid and wrong.

Israel has largely not "supported" Hamas since its nature as an active terrorist group was established.

It is true that Netanyahu and others of his party viewed Hamas as "useful" in an "enemy of my enemy" sense, they viewed Hamas as weak and manageable, and a unified Palestine under the PLO/PNA as an existential threat. This isn't the same thing as "propping up" Hamas.

Basically all modern claims of Israel "propping up" Hamas seem to conflate "allowing basic humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas, and periodically allowing rapprochement attempts to progress and Hamas' gulf allies to openly send them money they were going to covertly send them anyway." It is a strange and frankly stupid interpretation to call this "propping" up.

"Basic humanitarian aid" from Qatar, coming from shady individuals transporting cash in suitcases.  Sure.  Why not?
It's like the Italian mafia helping with the war effort in WW2.

The UN does humanitarian aid.  US aid does humanitarian aid.  The Red Cross does humanitarian aid.  The Red Crescent does humanitarian aid.

I don't think people linked with terrorism in Qatar do humanitarian aid.

As for the rest, I stand by my word.  Israel helped with the creation of Hamas by turning a blind eye in the early to mid 80s while it was being formed, and they kept doing it over the years as it grew.

Netanyahy had a chief responsibility to protect its people, but he prefered to protect the settlers specifically and send the IDF to murder the Palestinians in the West Bank to make more room for more settlers.

He could have consolidated on Israel borders, or pushed at anytime in Hamas territory to destroy the tunnels while they were weaker.  But he never did.  Even when warned, he refused to move the IDF from their position.

I guess he only hates Muslims when they unarmed.

[Grey Fox]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

Sure, but the Gaza strip situation is not sustainable. Also, they lost all the wars they started for territory. Might be time to try a different strategy.

[Razgovory]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

I have never said the Palestinians have no right to exist or that Palestine has no right to exist.

[viper37]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

I have never said the Palestinians have no right to exist or that Palestine has no right to exist.

You said people got displaced all the time and it was no big deal.  If that's not a negation of their right to exists, I don't know what it is...

[OttoVonBismarck]

I hate Muslims, not Arabs. There is a big difference. It is wrong to hate people for who they are innately (Arabs being a linguistic / quasi-ethnic group.) Hating people for believing and promoting evil ideas is not wrong. Islam is evil. Arabs are not. And I separate out Muslims from their religion to a degree—I hate Muslims for what they believe, but many Muslim individuals are capable of being mostly good people in day to day life.

Right.  You hate them for the religion they follow, so it's bigotry.

It's not much different from the guy who says he's not racist because he has Black friends.

Not all of them are terrorist sympathizers, just like not all Jews blindly follow Bibi.

No, I hate people who believe and support evil ideologies. I hate Nazis. If that makes me an anti-Nazi bigot. Sure, I'll sign up. It has no comparison to hating black people--which is racism, e.g. the hating of people based on their superficial race.

[Razgovory]

1) Was the Hamas attack justified?  Yes or No.

2) Does Israel have a right exist?  Yes or No.

1) No

2) Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

I have never said the Palestinians have no right to exist or that Palestine has no right to exist.

You said people got displaced all the time and it was no big deal.  If that's not a negation of their right to exists, I don't know what it is...

Yeah, so?  Germans got displaced, I still think Germans have a right to exist.

[Razgovory]

There are two main forms of Anti-Israeli bias. One is primarily anti-American and the other Antisemitic. These aren't the only forms, but the most common. There is some over lap between the two, but the anti-American ones do their best to downplay what the Antisemitic ones are saying.


The first one is Anti-American. It's primarily a left-wing view, but it does have it's right wing adherents who want to see the US return to isolationism. They see Israel primarily as a US proxy in the Middle East. Israel is proof that America is imperialist. They put a colony right in the Middle East! The US is racist so by extension Zionism is racism. It is a white stain on a brown region. The coming the Zionists destroyed the tranquil, tolerant life of Ottoman Palestine. The Israelis are colonialist-oppressor who only exists because of the American colossus. The people with this view mostly live in the West and make up the crowds protesting the bombings right now, though some actors like Russia and China fit in this category as well. It's not that they hate Jews, they are just indifferent to Jewish opinion and suffering. As settlers-colonists lives don't matter much. And well, most Jews are American...


One of the most striking things about these people is that do not know and certainly don't want to know what the Palestinians are saying and doing. Some are still in denial what Hamas is or what it has recently done. They downplay the overwhelming antisemitism in the Arab world and especially Palestine. When faced with what Hamas has done they equivocate or change the subject. A few justified the actions. Most of the these people don't care what happens after Palestine has achieved it's victory, not really. They didn't care what happened to the Afghans or the Iraqis after the US left. They don't care about the Uygurs or the Armenians. If you go back farther their predecessors didn't care what happened to the Vietnamese or the Cambodians. Freedom for Palestine doesn't mean freedom for Palestinians. It means the defeat of the US and their Israeli lackies.


The second group are the Antisemites. These are mostly Muslim and their views can be found on television across the Muslim world, and from the highest mosque to the lowest children's textbook. It's fairly simple wordview, and one that animates the main Palestinian factions : The Jew is a louse. The Arabs were beaten and colonized by British and French in the past, that's one thing. But to be beaten by a Jew! That lowly race of merchants that were supposed to be subordinate to Muslims? That was too much! The Jew is a bloodsucker, both figuratively and literally. He is born of apes and pigs. He commands the sharks in the ocean and the birds in the air. He kills Palestinians, steals their organs and eats them. He controls the US, the markets and the media. No calamity is too small or too to great be free of Jewish influence. The people who hold this view aren't interested in peace. The actions of Israeli settlers is ultimately inconsequential. They want Israel gone. Any treaty with the Zionist entity is a temporary truce.

[OttoVonBismarck]

That is almost perfectly stated Raz.

I do think there are some "good but ill informed" people who are also "reflexively" anti-Israeli, more like a "milquetoast" version of the anti-American camp.

[DGuller]

I think they're on the same levels.  Both want to exterminate each other.  Unless you can somehow convince me the far right does not want the Palestinian's extermination?  You might have a better chance at convincing me the Nazis were the good guys.

I don't think being openly unwilling to be convinced is as strong of an argument as you think it is.  It's definitely a revealing argument, though, especially the manner in which it is stated.