Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Sheilbh]

Again on why Netanyahu is unfit and unable to lead Israel in this war - addying to the now deleted late night Tweets attacking the IDF and Shin Bet for letting it happen.

I think the context is probably attempting to distract from the junior minister who said they should nuke Gaza - he has been suspended. Suspension isn't something I really know about for a minister and obviously as PM, Netanyahu could fire him. Apparently Netanyahu wanted to fire the minister but this was resisted by Ben Gvir and Netanyahu folded.

But anyway Netanyahu said that after the war he wants a probe into the link between "the refusal of military duty and motivation of Sinwar", that's Hamas' leader. The "refusal of military duty" he is referring to was the movement of air force reservists refusing to report in protest at Netanyahu's changes to the Israeli system of government, basically undermining the judiciary. In effect saying Hamas attacked because of the opposition.

Netanyahu has since done a bit of a reverse ferret on this. Benny Gantz attacked him pointing out that over 100% have reported for duty as part of the mobilisation post the 7 October attacks and adding "shirking responsibility and slandering others during wartime harms the nation. The PM must clearly and unambiguously retract his words". The Brothers and Sister in Arms (who are the protesting reservists) went further "the entire country is army (except your sons) and only you keep tearing the people apart."

Netanyahu initially basically said that's not what he said he just wanted an investigation and was just asking questions. He's now backtracked further and said that "Hamas launched a war against us because it wants to kill us all and not because of any internal argument. Hamas was wrong - and will therefore be destroyed. Only united will we win." Probably enough to keep the national unity government going but as today showed on multiple fronts - the coalition Netanyahu cares about is with the far right not a national unity government, and he will always put his political survival above literally everything else. He is just absolutely incapable to act as a national leader.

[viper37]

I'm just gonna leave this here for people who still insist there is no ethnic cleansing going on:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/world/middleeast/israel-egypt-gaza.html

[Sheilbh]

I'm just gonna leave this here for people who still insist there is no ethnic cleansing going on:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/world/middleeast/israel-egypt-gaza.html

As I say there is no way Biden explicitly rejected this idea in his tweets on calls with Netanyahu and Sisi if it hadn't been raised.

I know the paper that came out was only a discussion paper - but I think generally when a discussion paper is leaked it's either by people who think it's bad leaking it because they think it's bad, or to float a trial balloon and see what the reaction is.

It may not be what Israel are intending to do but I think it's definitely been under discussion - I believe I also read a piece on the Saudis possibly being open to it and thinking Egypt could be pressured into supporting it as they're in financial trouble so a big Gulf bailout could help. I think Saudi have reversed on that as popular opinion would not accept it.

[viper37]

I'm leaning on the trial balloon.  See how everyone reacts to it in the West.

[viper37]

Don't see him mentioned here

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/5/israel-bombs-al-maghazi-refugee-camp-killing-dozens-gaza-officials-say

or here

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67326895

If the target wasn't mentioned by name, it's because it wasn't a high value target.

The last time Israel eliminated a high value Hamas target, the name of the target was published.  Not just "some high value Hamas target was killed today".

[Admiral Yi]

If the target wasn't mentioned by name, it's because it wasn't a high value target.

The last time Israel eliminated a high value Hamas target, the name of the target was published.  Not just "some high value Hamas target was killed today".

None of this tells me that Israel killed 50 civilians in exchange for 1 medium value target.  So I have to wonder how you know this.

[viper37]

If the target wasn't mentioned by name, it's because it wasn't a high value target.

The last time Israel eliminated a high value Hamas target, the name of the target was published.  Not just "some high value Hamas target was killed today".

None of this tells me that Israel killed 50 civilians in exchange for 1 medium value target.  So I have to wonder how you know this.

It says in the article that 50 civilians were killed.
And unless I am mistaken, this is the second time we see such a strike in a refugee camp .

What were they targeting that was worth 50 civilians dead?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I don't remember you asking questions like this during the 2 year ISIS campaign that involved many bombings targeting ISIS leaders with nearby civilians being killed. Why is that?

[Sheilbh]

Houthi fired ballistic missile was shot down by Israel outside of the earth's atmosphere. I think this is the first example of space combat in our history. Initiated by Yemen rather surprisingly.

As with drones in Ukraine, it really feels like the future is here but perhaps not in the ways or being shown by the powers we anticipated.

[Admiral Yi]

What were they targeting that was worth 50 civilians dead?

Jesus fucking Christ veep.  I thought you already knew.  I thought you were telling me it was one mid level target.

Is this my fault?  Did I misread something you wrote?  Did I assume something I shouldn't have?

[viper37]

What were they targeting that was worth 50 civilians dead?

Jesus fucking Christ veep.  I thought you already knew.  I thought you were telling me it was one mid level target.

Is this my fault?  Did I misread something you wrote?  Did I assume something I shouldn't have?

Jesus Yi, do I look like I know every single member of the Hamas?
If it's a high value target, it will be identified by name, as they always do.

If the US, or Israel or any big power eliminates a high value target, they name him/it.

If the USS Abraham Lincoln was sunk in an attack, the group responsible would brag about it, they wouldn't simply say they struck a "US warship".

If they strike some minor support ship, they'll say they struck a US warship, that's how it works.

If Israel doesn't bother naming who they struck beyond "Hamas regional commander", it's because it's a mid tier target.

In this latest case, Israel couldn't even say whom or what they hit.
It can't have been that significant.

[viper37]

I don't remember you asking questions like this during the 2 year ISIS campaign that involved many bombings targeting ISIS leaders with nearby civilians being killed. Why is that?

Did anyone here defend the actions of ISIS?

When the few, limited actions to bomb ISIS leaders by occidental countries occurred, where they in the tune of 50-60 civilians killed to 1 ISIS leader?

I remember occidental countries mostly sitting on their arse and volunteers going to fight by themselves with Kurdish troops.

But you must have been overjoyed to see Russia's intervention in Syria.

[Admiral Yi]

What were they targeting that was worth 50 civilians dead?

Jesus fucking Christ veep.  I thought you already knew.  I thought you were telling me it was one mid level target.

Is this my fault?  Did I misread something you wrote?  Did I assume something I shouldn't have?

Jesus Yi, do I look like I know every single member of the Hamas?
If it's a high value target, it will be identified by name, as they always do.

If the US, or Israel or any big power eliminates a high value target, they name him/it.

If the USS Abraham Lincoln was sunk in an attack, the group responsible would brag about it, they wouldn't simply say they struck a "US warship".

If they strike some minor support ship, they'll say they struck a US warship, that's how it works.

If Israel doesn't bother naming who they struck beyond "Hamas regional commander", it's because it's a mid tier target.

In this latest case, Israel couldn't even say whom or what they hit.
It can't have been that significant.

And how do you know the number of non senior Hamas guys killed?

[viper37]

What were they targeting that was worth 50 civilians dead?

Jesus fucking Christ veep.  I thought you already knew.  I thought you were telling me it was one mid level target.

Is this my fault?  Did I misread something you wrote?  Did I assume something I shouldn't have?

Jesus Yi, do I look like I know every single member of the Hamas?
If it's a high value target, it will be identified by name, as they always do.

If the US, or Israel or any big power eliminates a high value target, they name him/it.

If the USS Abraham Lincoln was sunk in an attack, the group responsible would brag about it, they wouldn't simply say they struck a "US warship".

If they strike some minor support ship, they'll say they struck a US warship, that's how it works.

If Israel doesn't bother naming who they struck beyond "Hamas regional commander", it's because it's a mid tier target.

In this latest case, Israel couldn't even say whom or what they hit.
It can't have been that significant.

And how do you know the number of non senior Hamas guys killed?

If Israel's forces can't give us an estimate of the number of combatants they kill with their strikes, it means they are engaged in indiscriminate targeting of civilians when then are so many non military casualties.

The onus is on them to prove they are attacking military worthy targets and it's important to attack at the moment, when surrounded by civilians.

That's a lot of destruction of high value military targets.  How many high value military targets are there? What is a high military target?  Is it all Hamas combatants that you would define as "high value" military target?  Is it all buildings that are considered high value military targets?  Are all buildings are considered to be targets because they have a rocket launcher or could have a rocket launcher?

If I'd be using a conventional army as a model, high value targets to me would high ranking officers planning and organizing attacks.  People who direct units who can infiltrate Israel's territory to commit more mass murder.  People who can recruit more terrorists.  People who can initiate contact with other terror groups and coordinate more attacks.

Not a foot soldier who wields a AK-47 and is completely stoned.

[Admiral Yi]

This is a shitshow.  I've met you veep, I think you're  good guy, I've never seen you lying before, it breaks my heart to think of you as a liar but there's no other way I can parse this whole 50+1 exchange.

I'll have to just think this whole Gaza thing is frying people's brains, tune you out for the duration and hope you return to the veep that I knew before.