Buddha's New D&D Thread is Groovy, Man.

[crazy canuck]

But that's because of the example you picked.

I agree. The example I picked demonstrates it can be Lawful Good.  Anything else to add.

[ulmont]

I agree.  but you said, "finding a way to take advantage of others" which includes finding ways of breaking the law without getting caught.  With your qualifier I agree it is lawful but also not evil.

No it doesn't.  If the law allows one to screw someone else, following the law (lawful) while taking advantage of others (evil) is perfectly doable.  See damn near every bureaucrat.

[crazy canuck]

I agree.  but you said, "finding a way to take advantage of others" which includes finding ways of breaking the law without getting caught.  With your qualifier I agree it is lawful but also not evil.

No it doesn't.  If the law allows one to screw someone else, following the law (lawful) while taking advantage of others (evil) is perfectly doable.  See damn near every bureaucrat.

You are not making sense.  Just because there are Lawful ways to take advantage of others doesnt preclude that there are also unlawful ways of doing it and taking advantage of others is not necessarily an evil act.  I refer you again to our coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB.

That is why your second modifier was necessary to make your argument.

edit:  Further your example of bureaucrats is a bad one.  At worst they are Nuetral.  To be evil they would have to care.

[garbon]

CC weren't you who made the claim that acting in one's own best interest isn't evil? I don't see why that really matters when lawfully acting in one's own best interest can be evil (and thus an example of Lawful Evil).

[Oexmelin]

I agree.  but you said, "finding a way to take advantage of others" which includes finding ways of breaking the law without getting caught.  With your qualifier I agree it is lawful but also not evil.  Such a person could also be LG.

All of this depends on whether you use as a frame of reference a crypto-21st century system of values in a fantasy setting (as D&D basically uses) or a crypto-medieval system of values. We have neatly integrated (now without much of an afterthought, but that wasn't always the case) the idea that selfishness and always calculating your own interest will eventually add up to a greater common good. In an ideal heroic system, you do what's good at the moment, without trying to squeeze in your maximum advantage. And, in truth, as late as the 18th c., nobles *will* buy at inflated prices because that is what they do. And makers - before standardization of production - will create more expensive stuff for these people. There is never any fixed price - and this is another small thing from D&D which tends to annoy me: the shopping spree mentality, the liberal economies in a high-fantasy setting...

In your example, the true hero will buy from the most virtuous seller, even if he is overpricing... Because you are indeed not only buying something but endorsing someone

[ulmont]

You are not making sense.  Just because there are Lawful ways to take advantage of others doesnt preclude that there are also unlawful ways of doing it and taking advantage of others is not necessarily an evil act.  I refer you again to our coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB.

Your coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB isn't taking much advantage at all.  Condemning someone's property because you want to buy it cheaply is taking advantage.  Denying someone's business application over a typo because you don't like their face is taking advantage.  And so on.

[crazy canuck]

CC weren't you who made the claim that acting in one's own best interest isn't evil? I don't see why that really matters when lawfully acting in one's own best interest can be evil (and thus an example of Lawful Evil).

You are losing the thread of the argument Garbo.

[crazy canuck]

You are not making sense.  Just because there are Lawful ways to take advantage of others doesnt preclude that there are also unlawful ways of doing it and taking advantage of others is not necessarily an evil act.  I refer you again to our coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB.

Your coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB isn't taking much advantage at all.  Condemning someone's property because you want to buy it cheaply is taking advantage.  Denying someone's business application over a typo because you don't like their face is taking advantage.  And so on.

The two examples you cite are not lawful.  Both are examples of abuse of office which are in fact unlawful...

[crazy canuck]

I agree.  but you said, "finding a way to take advantage of others" which includes finding ways of breaking the law without getting caught.  With your qualifier I agree it is lawful but also not evil.  Such a person could also be LG.

All of this depends on whether you use as a frame of reference a crypto-21st century system of values in a fantasy setting (as D&D basically uses) or a crypto-medieval system of values. We have neatly integrated (now without much of an afterthought, but that wasn't always the case) the idea that selfishness and always calculating your own interest will eventually add up to a greater common good. In an ideal heroic system, you do what's good at the moment, without trying to squeeze in your maximum advantage. And, in truth, as late as the 18th c., nobles *will* buy at inflated prices because that is what they do. And makers - before standardization of production - will create more expensive stuff for these people. There is never any fixed price - and this is another small thing from D&D which tends to annoy me: the shopping spree mentality, the liberal economies in a high-fantasy setting...

In your example, the true hero will buy from the most virtuous seller, even if he is overpricing... Because you are indeed not only buying something but endorsing someone

Thats a good point Oex. Curse you.

[Barrister]

You are not making sense.  Just because there are Lawful ways to take advantage of others doesnt preclude that there are also unlawful ways of doing it and taking advantage of others is not necessarily an evil act.  I refer you again to our coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB.

Your coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB isn't taking much advantage at all.  Condemning someone's property because you want to buy it cheaply is taking advantage.  Denying someone's business application over a typo because you don't like their face is taking advantage.  And so on.

The two examples you cite are not lawful.  Both are examples of abuse of office which are in fact unlawful...

That's exactly the kind of behaviour that I do think of as lawful evil.  Actions that are within the technical rules, but motived by greed/malice.

[crazy canuck]

You are not making sense.  Just because there are Lawful ways to take advantage of others doesnt preclude that there are also unlawful ways of doing it and taking advantage of others is not necessarily an evil act.  I refer you again to our coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB.

Your coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB isn't taking much advantage at all.  Condemning someone's property because you want to buy it cheaply is taking advantage.  Denying someone's business application over a typo because you don't like their face is taking advantage.  And so on.

The two examples you cite are not lawful.  Both are examples of abuse of office which are in fact unlawful...

That's exactly the kind of behaviour that I do think of as lawful evil.  Actions that are within the technical rules, but motived by greed/malice.

You of all people should know they are not within the realm of the technical rules.  His first example would be serious enough for criminal charges to be laid.

[Neil]

You are not making sense.  Just because there are Lawful ways to take advantage of others doesnt preclude that there are also unlawful ways of doing it and taking advantage of others is not necessarily an evil act.  I refer you again to our coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB.

Your coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB isn't taking much advantage at all.  Condemning someone's property because you want to buy it cheaply is taking advantage.  Denying someone's business application over a typo because you don't like their face is taking advantage.  And so on.

The two examples you cite are not lawful.  Both are examples of abuse of office which are in fact unlawful...

Irrelevant.  'Lawful' the alignment and 'lawful' the legal term are not the same.  This is a case where you being a lawyer has hindered you.

[Barrister]

You of all people should know they are not within the realm of the technical rules.  His first example would be serious enough for criminal charges to be laid.

They are only "not within the rules" because we have general rules against conflicts of interest.

[ulmont]

You are not making sense.  Just because there are Lawful ways to take advantage of others doesnt preclude that there are also unlawful ways of doing it and taking advantage of others is not necessarily an evil act.  I refer you again to our coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB.

Your coupon clipping, khaki wearing, lawful good, BB isn't taking much advantage at all.  Condemning someone's property because you want to buy it cheaply is taking advantage.  Denying someone's business application over a typo because you don't like their face is taking advantage.  And so on.

The two examples you cite are not lawful.  Both are examples of abuse of office which are in fact unlawful...

That's exactly the kind of behaviour that I do think of as lawful evil.  Actions that are within the technical rules, but motived by greed/malice.

You of all people should know they are not within the realm of the technical rules.  His first example would be serious enough for criminal charges to be laid.

Have you read the Kelo case?  And generally, I endorse Barrister's definition of lawful evil.

[Eddie Teach]

CC, I think if you pictured Nazi Germany instead of modern Canada, lawful good would be just as hard to reconcile as lawful evil is for you now.