Former CIA and NSA employee source of intelligence leaks

[grumbler]

My hope is that we can get the tide turned back the other way and be able to debate these sorts of things.  I think we have the momentum in our direction and Snowden, and the Guardian, have a big part to play in that.  Now whether Snowden is an admirable guy or whether the intelligence losses are vital I am not sure, I think that is still up in the air.  The real lesson is you cannot just make huge policy decisions like this involving the American people on the executive level and silence all debate about it via secrecy.  That strikes me as taking executive privilege too far and the sort of thinking that will lead to more leakers.

I somewhat disagree, and would argue, instead, that we have the momentum in our direction, and have had it for some time, Snowden or not.  This was not a program established by Executive Order, it was established by Congressional mandate.   We are trying to get Congress to assert itself in its constitutionally-mandated role of oversight over the spending of public funds.  There has been no assertion of Executive Privilege here of which we are aware, let alone the abuse of such an assertion; the problem lies almost entirely in the hands of the Congress, and especially its leadership.  Subcommittee oversight hearings are too often either too buddy-buddy or too stridently seeking headlines to exercise due diligence in making sure these programs stayed within the bound Congress intended for them.  But, as I said, I think the tide has been shifting in our direction since shortly after the Patriot Act started rotting in 2003 or 2004, and it really just needs some new Congressional leadership, on both sides of the aisle, to end the abuses.  I think one more losing election will see the two biggest problems, Pelosi and McConnel, gone.



[/quote]

So I guess I hope the political process results in a new consensus in intelligence gathering that re-assures all of our Constitutional scruples and makes unfortunate things like these big leaks unnecessary and something we can all condemn. [/quote]

[garbon]

I think one more losing election will see the two biggest problems, Pelosi and McConnel, gone.

Oh don't taunt me so!

[mongers]

Probably one who doesn't want to be Bradley Manning?

The fact of the matter is Snowden is actually producing results, we are getting political movement on this, when before the efforts of hardworking Senators and Congresspeople were being ignored and marginalized.  So whether he goes to Russia or the moon, zero shits given as far as I am concerned.

So you're broadly in favour of what he did, the benefits of bringing this surveillance to light and public debate, out-weighing intelligence loses ?

My hope is that we can get the tide turned back the other way and be able to debate these sorts of things.  I think we have the momentum in our direction and Snowden, and the Guardian, have a big part to play in that.  Now whether Snowden is an admirable guy or whether the intelligence losses are vital I am not sure, I think that is still up in the air.  The real lesson is you cannot just make huge policy decisions like this involving the American people on the executive level and silence all debate about it via secrecy.  That strikes me as taking executive privilege too far and the sort of thinking that will lead to more leakers.

So I guess I hope the political process results in a new consensus in intelligence gathering that re-assures all of our Constitutional scruples and makes unfortunate things like these big leaks unnecessary and something we can all condemn.

Thanks, I hadn't read all of the thread to know were people here stood on the issue. 

I also broadly agree with you.

[DGuller]

Almost every party, gender, income, education, age and income group regards Snowden as a whistle-blower rather than a traitor. The lone exception is black voters, with 43 percent calling him a traitor and 42 percent calling him a whistle-blower.

This is what I don't get.  What is going on with white folks these days?

What kind of whisteblower packs up his evidence and heads to that beacon of liberty . . . the PRC?  And when it turns out even they have standards, his next move is to try Cuba by way of Russia?

The kind of whistleblower who doesn't want to be thrown deep into the military justice system, never to be heard from again?

[The Minsky Moment]

The kind of whistleblower who doesn't want to be thrown deep into the military justice system, never to be heard from again?

You mean like the way Bradley Manning wasn't heard from again?

If "not being heard from" means a three month long trial covered daily by the press, an impressive trial team of 3 experienced defense counsel, and resulting in acquittal on the most serious charge against him, you'd be right.  Justice in America is often flawed but from all appearances, Bradley Manning has about as little to complain about as just about anyone I can think of.

It would be more accurate IMO to say that Snowden is the kind of whistleblower who knows he has broken the law and the trust placed in him but doesn't want to take the consequences.
I can certainly understand why a criminal would want to escape prosecution; I don't understand why such conduct should be excused or admired.

[Maximus]

Yea I can admire someone who breaks the law for the greater good as long as they stand and accept judgement for it. He lost any cred as a whistleblower when he fled the country.

[The Brain]

I can certainly understand why a criminal would want to escape prosecution; I don't understand why such conduct should be excused or admired.

OK, BB.

[DGuller]

The kind of whistleblower who doesn't want to be thrown deep into the military justice system, never to be heard from again?

You mean like the way Bradley Manning wasn't heard from again?

If "not being heard from" means a three month long trial covered daily by the press, an impressive trial team of 3 experienced defense counsel, and resulting in acquittal on the most serious charge against him, you'd be right.  Justice in America is often flawed but from all appearances, Bradley Manning has about as little to complain about as just about anyone I can think of.

It would be more accurate IMO to say that Snowden is the kind of whistleblower who knows he has broken the law and the trust placed in him but doesn't want to take the consequences.
I can certainly understand why a criminal would want to escape prosecution; I don't understand why such conduct should be excused or admired.

There is a slight difference between "heard from" and "heard about".

[DGuller]

Yea I can admire someone who breaks the law for the greater good as long as they stand and accept judgement for it. He lost any cred as a whistleblower when he fled the country.

Let's turn it around.  Let's say that a Russian intelligence officer decides to blow the whistle on some terrorist act that his intelligence agency perpetrated (say, blowing up a couple of apartment buildings).  Would that intelligence officer lose his credibility if he decided against staying in Russia, and escaped to, say, Great Britain?

[Maximus]

No, there is a reason I immigrated to the US and not Russia

[Syt]

No, there is a reason I immigrated to the US and not Russia

Hot American poontang.

[The Minsky Moment]

I reject both the false equivalence between the UK and Putin's Russia and the false equivalence between the indiscriminate release of over a quarter of a million confidential diplomatic cables and the cover up of a terrorist bombing.

[DGuller]

No, there is a reason I immigrated to the US and not Russia

Well, when it comes to blowing state secrets, every country is more or less like Russia.  Some will take your life directly, some will just ruin it, but your life will be essentially done for.  I generally don't hold lack of suicidal behavior against people, not to mention the fact that it's harder to keep blowing the whistle once you're in the hands of the entity you're blowing the whistle on. 

These critiques make zero sense.  Those are rationalizations, not reasons.

[Maximus]

Yea, I disagree with pretty much all of that.

[Berkut]

No, there is a reason I immigrated to the US and not Russia

Well, when it comes to blowing state secrets, every country is more or less like Russia.

The USA has a perfectly reasonably functioning rule of law.

Snowden is running not because he thinks he cannot get a fair trial in the USA, but because he knows he will get a fair trial in the USA.