Controversial same-sex case

[Barrister]

Life sentence for rape?  That's another area where US criminal code hasn't quite caught up to civilized world.  Yes, rape is bad, and it's traumatic to the victim, but at the end of the day the victim can move on with their life, unlike the murder victims.  If the legal system equates rape to murder, then what's the incentive to keep the rape victim alive?

You can get a life sentence for a wide range of crimes, not just murder.

[DGuller]

Life sentence for rape?  That's another area where US criminal code hasn't quite caught up to civilized world.  Yes, rape is bad, and it's traumatic to the victim, but at the end of the day the victim can move on with their life, unlike the murder victims.  If the legal system equates rape to murder, then what's the incentive to keep the rape victim alive?

You can get a life sentence for a wide range of crimes, not just murder.

I know you can.  I'm just saying that's idiotic.

[Barrister]

Life sentence for rape?  That's another area where US criminal code hasn't quite caught up to civilized world.  Yes, rape is bad, and it's traumatic to the victim, but at the end of the day the victim can move on with their life, unlike the murder victims.  If the legal system equates rape to murder, then what's the incentive to keep the rape victim alive?

You can get a life sentence for a wide range of crimes, not just murder.

I know you can.  I'm just saying that's idiotic.

By the way to answer your question (what is the incentive to keep your victim alive):

Life imprisonment is one a range of sentences for many offences.  For murder, it is the only sentence.  There is still ample incentive to not kill people while committing a crime.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Life sentence for rape?  That's another area where US criminal code hasn't quite caught up to civilized world.  Yes, rape is bad, and it's traumatic to the victim, but at the end of the day the victim can move on with their life, unlike the murder victims.  If the legal system equates rape to murder, then what's the incentive to keep the rape victim alive?

Rape is already a life sentence crime here in Virginia, there are a lot more people sentenced for rape than for murder, so obviously there is some incentive. Mostly it's because rapists do not want to kill their victims, because they are closely related to them or are in some form of relationship with them and don't want them gone (nor do they expect to be reported), and also because not everyone who is willing to commit a stranger rape is willing to murder someone. You act like killing someone is nothing and criminals would just decide it logically, most people, even rapists, are not cold blooded killers.

You seem to think we have to "catch up" to foreign countries, and I don't buy that. I think we should get rid of the death penalty for a laundry list of practical reasons, and I think incarceration for most drug crimes and white collar crimes is typically inappropriate. (For habitual offenders, scam artists etc I can see incarceration for white collar crimes, and for the extremely egregious ones like Bernie Madoff.) I consider it pretty terrible that in some States here in the United States you can attack some woman on the street, beat her up, rape and rob her and be out on parole in three years.

I think it's easy to only bitch about harsh sentences for drug laws, and I absolutely agree with those being inappropriate. I think it's easy to bitch about mandatory minimums for basically every Federal crime and many State crimes, and to bitch about three strikes laws which give judges and juries no discretion on complex situations. But it's also easy, like you're doing, to act like even seriously violent people should be given "rehabilitation." My philosophy on criminal justice basically thinks of three broad categories of criminal:

1. Con-artists of various stripe who are parasites on society and cause financial harm to others. They should be punished, but there is not an immediate need to incarcerate them. Their punishment should mostly consist of community service and some level of fine (payable over time.) Serial offenders might need incarcerated.

2. Moderately violent criminals who are a danger to society. These are people who beat their wives, rob banks, and commit crimes of that nature. Their offenses are grave enough that they need to be incarcerated for some period of time, but they should be given robust access to rehabilitation services. Further, to some degree they should "hold the key to their jail cell" in that if they can advance through rehabilitation programs at superior levels they should be released much earlier.

3. Extremely violent criminals. Murderers, kidnappers, rapists, and people who commit violent assaults that leave permanent significant disability fall into this category for me. Firstly, to me rehabilitation is for society, not for the criminal. It's because justice demands not every criminal be in prison for life and we want them to be members of society when they get out (the U.S. does very, very poorly at this.) But if justice demands a life sentence, as I feel it should for these crimes, then rehabilitation is irrelevant. These people should be locked up and given moderate access to entertainment (TV if they pay for it, free reading materials, activities etc) but no real money should ever be spent on rehabilitating them and they should never be released.

Note that drug offenders really don't fit into any of these categories, because mostly I view them as a medical or mental health problem and they should be dealt with in that way. Drug dealers fall anywhere on the spectrum from social parasites to moderately violent criminals and should be subjected to a range of punishments as deemed appropriate by a jury or a judge, depending on their particulars. People like racketeers and organized criminal leaders tend to fall into the category of extremely violent criminal, because the only credible way for them to be in business is to have used enough serious violence that people fear them, so even if they can't be proven to have done any particular violence I'm fine with RICO laws which send these guys away for extremely long periods of time.

Since non-violent drug offenses result in over half of our incarcerations even though I'd be specifying harsher penalties for some crimes (aggravated violent assaults causing serious injury, for example) the sheer reduction in offenses resulting in incarceration would represent a dramatic reduction in our prison population.

[DGuller]

Incentives aside, the punishment of life sentence just doesn't fit the crime of rape.  Rape is a bad, bad crime, but it's not life sentence bad.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Incentives aside, the punishment of life sentence just doesn't fit the crime of rape.  Rape is a bad, bad crime, but it's not life sentence bad.

The motivations of a rapist are bad enough that there is really no compelling reason for them to ever be released. It requires a significant perversion of acceptable moral reasoning.

[Valmy]

The motivations of a rapist are bad enough that there is really no compelling reason for them to ever be released. It requires a significant perversion of acceptable moral reasoning.

What if they were drunk and raped a sleeping person?  I don't know sometimes people make horrible mistakes when they are young but it does not necessarily mean they are too perverse to ever be released.

[DGuller]

Incentives aside, the punishment of life sentence just doesn't fit the crime of rape.  Rape is a bad, bad crime, but it's not life sentence bad.

The motivations of a rapist are bad enough that there is really no compelling reason for them to ever be released. It requires a significant perversion of acceptable moral reasoning.

Criminal justice should be about proportional punishment;  it shouldn't be about keeping undesirables locked away from society.

[CountDeMoney]

Criminal justice should be about proportional punishment;  it shouldn't be about keeping undesirables locked away from society.

That's where you're wrong, Eurotype Weenieperson.  Rapists and other sexual predators aren't like thieves, drug dealers or investment bankers;  there is no rehabilitation for sexual offenders.

[DGuller]

Criminal justice should be about proportional punishment;  it shouldn't be about keeping undesirables locked away from society.

That's where you're wrong, Eurotype Weenieperson.  Rapists and other sexual predators aren't like thieves, drug dealers or investment bankers;  there is no rehabilitation for sexual offenders.

[CountDeMoney]

The recidivism rates for sexual predators speak for themselves.

[DGuller]

The recidivism rates for sexual predators speak for themselves.

[Ed Anger]

DG, to maintain your Americanism, you need to call for their heads to be cut off.

Euroweenieism WILL be noted. Don't make me get out my red pen.

[ulmont]

The recidivism rates for sexual predators speak for themselves.

Yes, they do.

According to the Office of Justice Programs (OJP) of the United States Department of Justice,[4] in New York State the recidivism rate for sex offenders has been shown to be lower than any other crime except murder.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Not sure you can easily measure recidivism of rapists. A lot of things would muddle most conceptions:

1. Many rapists are people who rape children they are guardians of or have access to, these types of rapists will rape hundreds of times without getting caught. Sort of muting any claims that they have a low recidivism rate, especially since they will likely be denied access to children by any sane persons once they are released.

2. Date rapists likewise typically never get caught in the first place, so they are most likely perpetrators of many rapes who are unlikely to get caught once released.

3. The rarer strange rapists are also almost never caught the first time they rape, and are unlikely to get caught when released.

Rape and sexual abuse are not easily tracked, and instead should be considered based on expert interactions with incarcerated and known rapists. Typically these people have strong compulsions to do what they do that are not easily trained away, although some techniques appear to work the fact that it's a constantly struggle for them to not go around raping people is strong evidence against releasing them, regardless of whatever minimally useful statistics might show. But back to the root of it, the malicious mindset to even commit a rape is so contrary to the public order that there is no compelling reason to not punish it with a life term.