Margaret Thatcher was no poster girl for gay rights

[Brazen]

The "Don't die of ignorance" iceberg campaign was incredibly effective, and very clearly identified that AIDS was in no way limited to the gay male community, and set out what everyone could do to minimise the risk of contracting it.

Until I see evidence otherwise, I think the Labour paedophile poster may have been misremembered by the author, or had been either mocked up as a spoof, or was a complete balls-up by Saatchi that was leaked to the press but never used.

[Brazen]

The who? Do we have any of those?

I mean i respect arkyspite, but he's a croat.

[katmai]

The who? Do we have any of those?

I mean i respect arkyspite, but he's a croat.

I'm just joshing ya B.

[Martinus]

Anyway supposedly Britain handled the AIDS thing much much better than the US did under her leadership and she was one of the few Tories to vote for the gays on some key measure according to the other thread.

That was decriminalization of homosexuality in 1967 and the article addresses that.

Sure enough it mentions it and does not address it.  It, incredibly, acts as if that vote was cast in 2007 not 1967.  Which makes his points rather weak when it is obvious he is tossing out points that do not fit with his agenda.  Besides nobody has ever claimed she was a poster girl for gay rights or that she should be praised in this area.  The article, despite its title, is not making the argument that she should not be praised for her gay rights record, rather that she should be condemned for it.  To do that you have to minimize all the evidence that does not fit with that perspective.  Which he does.

The article addresses a point that is made by some that she actually liked gay people and had many gay friends, and Section 28 was an "accident" - that is raised by many tory gays these days (this is for the people who do not read news outside of Languish).

[Neil]

Come on Mart.  You know full well that gays are bad people and deserve every bad thing that they get.  You're just a little too close to the problem to be able to admit it.

[Scipio]

Mart, you would have had a pretty shitty time as a gay, lesbian or transgender person in 1980s Britain anywhere outside certain enclaves of London. Sadly, gay rights was probably the one area in which she was most in tune with the working class.

I have a feeling, and this is just me, that outside of the Castro, Marty would have had a pretty shitty time as a gay, lesbian, or transgender person anywhere in the English speaking world in the 1980s.

[Martinus]

Another gay voice, this time from the Telegraph:

I might be a gay woman but I don't need to dance on Margaret Thatcher's grave

I was driving along in the countryside when I heard the news that Margaret Thatcher had died.

It's not a huge surprise. She was 87 and in very poor health. When I worked in the BBC newsroom we prepared for these days. Obituary packages and procedures were well rehearsed. But I'm not in the Corporation's newsroom now. I can respond emotionally and intellectually and I am able to express an opinion.

Over the past few days I have been listening to all the eulogies and tributes on the radio and television. "We have lost a great Prime Minister," said David Cameron. The word "great' is being bandied about in every other sentence. However, it is word with several definitions of course. It can mean 'wonderful', 'first rate' or just 'enormous' or 'important'.

There is no doubt that Baroness Thatcher was important. It's fascinating watching her opponents being interviewed trying desperately not to say what they really feel - respecting the fact that she has just died and we Brits don't like to speak ill of the dead; not too soon after they've passed anyway.

So how long is a respectable period to leave before we can say what we really think?

Even people I admire hugely on Twitter are asking us all "not to dance on her grave". Well I am not going to dance on Lady Thatcher's grave. The feeling of anger and shame that her name engenders in me was as strong in her life as it is in her death. We have all known that she has been unwell for a long time, but because she was ill does not prevent me from having a pretty strong opinion on what she did when she was perfectly well.

I was 24 when Section 28 was introduced to 'prevent the promotion of homosexuality' in schools by Lady Thatcher's government in 1987. It was at a time when AIDS was placing its hideous stranglehold on the gay community. A community that needed help, support and education was instead the victim of homophobia entrenched in our education system.

The progress of equality was set back decades. Gay people were made to feel even more marginalised. There was an excuse to ostracise and bully. It was a sorry, sorry time and anyone who was remotely involved in it should feel nothing but shame.

Lady Thatcher was a woman of principle who never doubted her convictions. She never admitted to being wrong. The British Labour politician Roy Hattersley tells of a time when there was clearly an error in a white paper but however blatant the mistake, Mrs T was having none of it. Is that something to admire? Are we to admire someone just because they have principles even if those principles are misguided?

If I admire David Cameron for anything it is his ability to make a u-turn, to apologise for his support of Clause 28 and admit to an error of judgment.

I don't admire people just for being strong. Strength in itself is not laudable if it is misguided. The truly intelligent ask questions and are open to doubt. Bullishness is not necessarily 'great'.

Am I saddened by Lady Thatcher's death? No I am not sad. I can feel a human sympathy for her family and friends who have lost someone that they loved but I cannot feel sad.

Sadness is a different thing altogether. My political beliefs were formed at the height of the Thatcher era. If I have to thank her for anything it is the sense of injustice that she instilled in me. It is perhaps because of her that I feel the need to defend so strongly the unrepresented and oppressed.

Many of her supporters are trying to reassure us that Lady Thatcher was a kind person in her private life. That may well be. I was not in her private life. As a gay woman, I was a victim of her public life and to me that represented unkindness bordering on bullying. I celebrated when she was ousted from power. I danced then. I have no need to do it again but when the country stops next Wednesday to watch her state funeral, my heart will be empty.

[/b]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/9985392/I-might-be-a-gay-woman-but-I-dont-need-to-dance-on-Margaret-Thatchers-grave.html

[Martinus]

And speaking of hagiography and hyperbole, the Economist is running a cover, calling her "Freedom Fighter". I am considering cancelling my subscription.

[viper37]

To think that things like this happened 30 years only before the UK legalized gay marriage is both amazing and horrifying.

I know that if I lived as an adult gay man through the 80s in Britain and especially lost someone I care for to AIDS, I'd be inclined to dance on her grave now.

So, ok, were there any good places in the world to be gay in the 80s?  I'm searching for places that would be similar to Canada, UK, France, Australia today?

Linking Thatcher's policy of no gay promotion to teen suicide is dishonest, at the very least.  Teens keep committing suicide for various reasons in our occidental societies.  In the 3rd world, they are sent to die in various wars&conflicts, as it was before. 

I don't think teens killing themselves because they're gay should be treated seperately from other issues, it is the same basic problem related to teenage years, with drugs, alcohol, bullying, first love drama, desire for freedom denied, etc, etc.  We are at a crossroads where we need to be treated like adults, but are not yet ready to be so.  Gay is simply one more reason to commit suicide.  Nerds commit suicide because they are mocked.  Those suffering from sever acnea used to commit suicide.  Those who pose nude commit suicide.  Those who are bullied because they aren't smart enough are committing suicide.

If you focus on one of the many reasons, I fear you will ignore an underlying cause common to most teen suicide, and that is counter-productive for the society.

[derspiess]

And speaking of hagiography and hyperbole, the Economist is running a cover, calling her "Freedom Fighter". I am considering cancelling my subscription.

[garbon]

Marti is so ridiculous.

[garbon]

Linking Thatcher's policy of no gay promotion to teen suicide is dishonest, at the very least.  Teens keep committing suicide for various reasons in our occidental societies.  In the 3rd world, they are sent to die in various wars&conflicts, as it was before. 

I don't think teens killing themselves because they're gay should be treated seperately from other issues, it is the same basic problem related to teenage years, with drugs, alcohol, bullying, first love drama, desire for freedom denied, etc, etc.  We are at a crossroads where we need to be treated like adults, but are not yet ready to be so.  Gay is simply one more reason to commit suicide.  Nerds commit suicide because they are mocked.  Those suffering from sever acnea used to commit suicide.  Those who pose nude commit suicide.  Those who are bullied because they aren't smart enough are committing suicide.

If you focus on one of the many reasons, I fear you will ignore an underlying cause common to most teen suicide, and that is counter-productive for the society.

OK then what's the underlying cause common to most teen suicide?

[viper37]

OK then what's the underlying cause common to most teen suicide?

I don't know, but given that many non gay teens commit suicide, it would seem homosexuality is not the cause, no?
A majority of teens committing suicide are depressed.  Like all mental disease, it's only been recently really researched.

Maybe there's an hormonal change that increases the risks, I remember reading something along that some time ago.  With hormonal imbalance may create depression in subjects.

Aside that, medicine and psychology aren't my field of expertise.  I just think focusing only on the gay issues would let us miss other issues.

[The Brain]

Gays can't kill themselves, it's a hate crime.

[derspiess]

Gays can't kill themselves, it's a hate crime.

Especially if it's out of self-hatred.  Good point.