Torment: Tides of Numenara

[Pedrito]

It's already over 2 million $, it's going up faster than Obsidian's Project Eternity.

Between Wastelands 2, Eternity and Numenera it seems 2013-14 will be good times for old style isometric RPGs 

L.

[Martinus]

I wonder how long till these kickstarter game projects run into difficulties and delays and people stop supporting them?

Because right now it seems like wishful thinking - I don't recall a single game completed according to that model, right?

I don't get the wishful thinking part...what difference does it make if these guys get the money from KS or a publisher?  It is not like they have never designed and made a good game before.  And I believe many of them have had difficulties and delays.

Well the difference is that when the game is funded by publisher, a customer does not pay until the game is ready. Right now people are enthusiastic about the model, but if it turns out to produce more misses than hits, people will become more disilusioned about contributing to the KS this way in the future and the model may falter. Is it really such an extraordinary prediction?

[Martinus]

Because it is a fledgling model and if there are serious flops - people won't have confidence in it?

Because people will say 'but this is legendary game designer blah blah, you know he will do an amazing job not like that hack job blah blah!'  I guess if ALL of them are flops then it might take down the whole idea but I find that pretty statistically unlikely.  The teams with the big bucks have pretty solid track records.

It depends. It may be that with no producer oversight, the creatives may get too creative and run the project into the ground. Being a legendary game designer means nothing if you cannot manage projects properly - now I am not saying this will happen, but perhaps removing the producer's "whip" will tilt power balance in favour of the designers, which may mean the game will be developed for so long, it will run out of KS money and never get finished - there is, after all, such thing as over-designing a product.

[Martinus]

The thing is, no matter how great a creative designer you are, there is such thing as underestimating the resources needed to reach the goal. There is also a point in any creative process where improving the project you work on becomes subject to diminishing results - but creative people are notoriously bad at determining such breaking point, since they tend to be obsessive perfectionists (and that's why they need project managers and producers to tell them to stop polishing it and release). In the KS model, the producers either do not exist or are hired by the designers, so the usual power balance between both groups gets skewed in favor of the designers, who therefore will be more likely to effectively run the project and make the mistake I described at the beginning

When the initial costs of a project get underestimated in a process run according to the standard model, the producers have a choice of either canning the project or putting more cash into it.

In the KS model, each scenarios - i.e. (1) the designers can the project, (2) the designers come out to the KS funders for more cash after 3 years of working on the game, or (3) the designers release an unpolished game - will seriously undermine the confidence in the model.

QED.

[11B4V]

Seems sound to me Matri. If I give 100.00 to KS project and it gets canned do i get it back? Seems almost in the gray area of a scam and open to abuse.

[Ed Anger]

For kickstarter hilarity, look up the up front kickstarter on BGG.

[11B4V]

For kickstarter hilarity, look up the up front kickstarter on BGG.

I dont blame them.

[Ed Anger]

For kickstarter hilarity, look up the up front kickstarter on BGG.

I dont blame them.

BGG users get what they deserve.

[Razgovory]

I don't know what BGG is.

[11B4V]

I don't know what BGG is.

Board Game Geek

[grumbler]

I don't understand why people don't realize that these ventures are gambles, and that investors know that investing in kickstarter projects guarantees nothing - just like spending $60 on crap like The Witcher 2 or Dragon Age games guarantees nothing. 

The difference between dropping coin on these projects and something from an established publisher seem to be (1) that you potentially get more for the buck with kickstarter, since prices are lower, and (2) that you have a higher chance of getting nothing with kickstarter, rather than simply getting crap you don't want.

It is quite clear to me that the most cost-effective route is to wait for the Steam sales, in terms of just game for dollar.  But lots of people find value in sharing anticipation with a community of others also anticipating the title and sharing the initial exploration of it, so there seems to be markets for kickstarter-like projects (including preorders from more established customers) as well as early buys of games and "aftermarket" sales on Steam (or wherever).

People are different.  Hell, Polacks are probably even different.

[Razgovory]

I don't know what BGG is.

Board Game Geek

Ah.  I was hoping it was Boy-girl-girl porn.

[Valmy]

I wonder how long till these kickstarter game projects run into difficulties and delays and people stop supporting them?

Because right now it seems like wishful thinking - I don't recall a single game completed according to that model, right?

I don't get the wishful thinking part...what difference does it make if these guys get the money from KS or a publisher?  It is not like they have never designed and made a good game before.  And I believe many of them have had difficulties and delays.

Well the difference is that when the game is funded by publisher, a customer does not pay until the game is ready. Right now people are enthusiastic about the model, but if it turns out to produce more misses than hits, people will become more disilusioned about contributing to the KS this way in the future and the model may falter. Is it really such an extraordinary prediction?

It seems you are moving the goal posts on me.  You said it was wishful thinking that any games would get made using this model, I asked why that was so since these were established developers getting the kickstarter money.  You have no real answer for that but come back with a vague pronouncement that if there are more misses than hits than the entire model would falter.  If there is a particular developer in KS that has a run of success why would their fans suddenly not want to fund them because somebody else failed to deliver?  And why wouldn't one of these developers be successful, they have a history of success behind them.  Now I could see people being careful with their kickstarter money but it looks like they sort of are, the big money is really only being taken in by big names with impressive resumes.

[Valmy]

QED.

I don't know if hypotheticals can be considered a proof of something.

Brian Fargo, the guy running this project, is primarily producer with decades of experience and not a developer.

[Pedrito]

Well, I pledged $45.

It won't be the most wasted money of my life.

L.