Chávez dead

[Valmy]

I read most of the Malt's link, and while it is for the most part a fairly predictable pinko apologia of Chavez (liberal use of the change the subject strategy) I didn't find it particularly trollsome.

I think Spicey was thinking he posted it just to piss people off and he did not actually believe it.

[derspiess]

Just out of curiosity, why did Chavez become the subject of such hate?  It's not like he's unique, even in Latin America.  And there have been worse and may still be worse out there.

Too many reasons to list.  But he's been on my shit list since his coup attempt in 1992.  Had they only summarily executed him back then...

[derspiess]

I read most of the Malt's link, and while it is for the most part a fairly predictable pinko apologia of Chavez (liberal use of the change the subject strategy) I didn't find it particularly trollsome.

I think Spicey was thinking he posted it just to piss people off and he did not actually believe it.

Hoping.

[Razgovory]

Just out of curiosity, why did Chavez become the subject of such hate?  It's not like he's unique, even in Latin America.  And there have been worse and may still be worse out there.

Too many reasons to list.  But he's been on my shit list since his coup attempt in 1992.  Had they only summarily executed him back then...

Okay, list five.

[derspiess]

Just out of curiosity, why did Chavez become the subject of such hate?  It's not like he's unique, even in Latin America.  And there have been worse and may still be worse out there.

Too many reasons to list.  But he's been on my shit list since his coup attempt in 1992.  Had they only summarily executed him back then...

Okay, list five.

Okay.  In no particular order: the 1992 coup & the fact that it established him as a violent leftist, he was a heavily anti-American quasi-communist and close friends with Fidel Castro and others I despise, he nationalized whatever he could get his hands on, he was a kleptocrat, and he effectively expelled the educated middle class (some of whom are friends & acquaintances of mine).  He took a wonderful nation like Venezuela and turned it into a crime-ridden shithole.

There, I think that's more than five.

[The Larch]

It was a wonderful nation for very few people.

[katmai]

Like spicy has friends.

[fhdz]

As others have noted, I don't think there's any contradiction in saying that his policies lessened poverty/inequality for a huge number of Venezuelans (although it appears those policies are unsustainable and one of Chavez's successors is eventually going to have to deal with the backlash when the economy tanks completely) and in saying he was a power-abusing shithead.

You don't have to be an enemy of the poor to realize that Chavez was not a very forward-thinking leader, and you don't have to be a socialist to note that poor Venezuelans are better off (for the moment) than they were before he took power.

[The Larch]

What I'd give to have Pirate Scum's take on his figure and legacy...

[mongers]

As others have noted, I don't think there's any contradiction in saying that his policies lessened poverty/inequality for a huge number of Venezuelans (although it appears those policies are unsustainable and one of Chavez's successors is eventually going to have to deal with the backlash when the economy tanks completely) and in saying he was a power-abusing shithead.

You don't have to be an enemy of the poor to realize that Chavez was not a very forward-thinking leader, and you don't have to be a socialist to note that poor Venezuelans are better off (for the moment) than they were before he took power.

Yes, which is why I don't get some of the throthing in this thread, it's like they regard him as a idealogical enemy.

Venezuelans voted for him and his policies; their choice to reap the benefits and the downsides.
Surely people aren't objecting to him because he did things in the non-approved way ?  If so then it's the echo of a doctrine, Monroe or otherwise, that's had it's day, you can't tell a whole continent of different countries, how they should organise themselves. Besides Washington is no longer the pre-eminent power in the region.   

[fhdz]

Yes, which is why I don't get some of the throthing in this thread, it's like they regard him as a idealogical enemy.

Venezuelans voted for him and his policies; their choice to reap the benefits and the downsides.

Well, you could make a fairly convincing argument that his largest base of support does not understand that the policies which have caused their lives to become better are funded in an unsustainable way and that in voting for him they were not aware that an economic crash could send them back into poverty, and maybe worse off than they were before. Still - the argument goes, "so? Isn't that Venezuela's problem and not North America's?" In some ways it is and in some ways it isn't. Globalization has made everyone's problems everyone *else's* problems too, at least indirectly.

Surely people aren't objecting to him because he did things in the non-approved way ?  If so then it's the echo of a doctrine, Monroe or otherwise, that's had it's day, you can't tell a whole continent of different countries, how they should organise themselves. Besides Washington is no longer the pre-eminent power in the region.

I think people are quite right to criticize Chavez for shutting down opposition and creating an almost entirely cronyist government to support those efforts.

[Jacob]

Personally, I have a low opinion of Chavez and I don't think he was any good for Venezuela; but I wouldn't call him a dictator.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes, which is why I don't get some of the throthing in this thread, it's like they regard him as a idealogical enemy.

What exactly in this thread qualifies as frothing?

The only thing that comes close is some of Seedy's posts, and I assume that's not what you meant.

[Razgovory]

It's odd but few people here seem to complain about attempted Coup against Chavez, when the Chavez's failed coup should apperantly be used against him.  Also nobody mentions the 2009 Honduras Coup.

[fhdz]

And I haven't heard jack shit about the Coupe de Ville.