Gosh Deng it! The legacy of Xiaoping

[Razgovory]

A discussion I had with Psellus over Facebook, (cause I'm boring and pitiful and dull) revolved around Mr. Deng.  Psellus thought that Deng might have a bigger historical impact then either Marx or Lenin.  I disagreed.  Well this might happen, but I don't think it likely.  Not to quote him out of context,  Here's what he said

Reading Deng Xiaoping and the Transformation of China. Ironic that Deng could end up having greater historical impact than Lenin, maybe Marx even.

What do you guys say?

[Zanza]

Deng's policies helped to lift hundreds of millions out of poverty. That's something the other two certainly didn't achieve.

[Fate]

He's not sexy. No one, in the West at least, will remember him 50 years from now.

[Valmy]

He's not sexy. No one, in the West at least, will remember him 50 years from now.

I find that hard to believe.  Chinese leaders tend not to be sexy but I have a hard time imagining a figure as vital to the 21st century as Deng not being remembered.

[MadImmortalMan]

It would be tough to blame Deng for millions of deaths. Define "impact". 

[Razgovory]

Deng's policies helped to lift hundreds of millions out of poverty. That's something the other two certainly didn't achieve.

I do not think a legacy has to be positive.  Lenin's little coup made it so radical left wing revolutionaries would be Communist and Marxist and not Anarchist or whatever.  For 70 years after Lenin's death revolutionaries would almost always be Marxist, not just in Russia or Europe but in Asia, South America, Africa.  If Deng helped raise up hundreds of millions then Lenin's legacy was to plunge over a billion into chaos.  I see Deng as a sort of like Richelieu.  A somewhat shadowy, but prominent leader who reformed one major country.

[Razgovory]

It would be tough to blame Deng for millions of deaths. Define "impact". 

Not that tough... he certainly played his part in the great leap forward.

[Valmy]

Not that tough... he certainly played his part in the great leap forward.

He was just following orders!

[Camerus]

Probably his impact will be more positive than either Marx's or Lenin's (though that's not a terribly high bar), but perhaps not more influential.  On the other hand, living as I do in the crown jewel of Deng's reforms - Shenzhen - I can certainly say his legacy is much more immediately apparent.  He's also revered around here... I've seen a Deng statue and some government pictures of him around the city, but none of Mao.

[Valmy]

I've seen a Deng statue and some government pictures of him around the city, but none of Mao.

Justice

[Eddie Teach]

He's not sexy. No one, in the West at least, will remember him 50 years from now.

China will be harder to ignore in 50 years than it is now.

[Queequeg]

Richelieu

Isn't Richeliieu on a short list of founders of the modern state?  I've always considered him to be one of the most important governmental reformers of all time. 

[Queequeg]

He's not sexy. No one, in the West at least, will remember him 50 years from now.

China will be harder to ignore in 50 years than it is now.

This seems almost inevitably true.  As we are further removed from the memory of Mao, I think it's likely that Western observers will look to Deng and maybe pre-Communist leaders (Sun Yat-sen) to properly understand the modern, post-Mao CPC lead China. 

[Queequeg]

This FB post was in part inspired by an article I read in Foreign Affairs, essentially a long-winded defense of the CPC's governance and a critique of democracy. It's actually a pretty flimsy article in places-somehow democracy within the Party is a positive sign of reform within Communist China, but everywhere else it is stagnated, and somehow the Communist China still doesn't need any more democratic reform-but I think it's pretty clear that most of what Eric is defending here is the ultimate legacy of Deng's pragmatic NEP-2 for the benefit of late-70s China.  If this is a new post-democratic period we are entering, Deng is it's grandfather, and that's way more than Lenin or Marx accomplished.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/138476/eric-x-li/the-life-of-the-party?page=show

[Razgovory]

He's not sexy. No one, in the West at least, will remember him 50 years from now.

China will be harder to ignore in 50 years than it is now.

This seems almost inevitably true.  As we are further removed from the memory of Mao, I think it's likely that Western observers will look to Deng and maybe pre-Communist leaders (Sun Yat-sen) to properly understand the modern, post-Mao CPC lead China.

I imagine in 50 years we will be talking about post-communist leaders in China.