An "anti gay" story I am conflicted about

[garbon]

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

And that's why every fag in the world has to die or be cured.  With that kind of trash, tolerance is always a one-way street.

He can say what he wants - but that doesn't mean gays have to fund his lifestyle.

[Neil]

Except those reasons would leave her at fault, when the point was that she was blamelessly prevented from serving her country/her community/justice.

She could punch out an officer or something for grabbing her ass.

[Neil]

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

And that's why every fag in the world has to die or be cured.  With that kind of trash, tolerance is always a one-way street.

He can say what he wants - but that doesn't mean gays have to fund his lifestyle.

Yes, they do.  That's what tolerance is all about.

[dps]

Bankrolling what? Putting food on the table for his kids? Are the profits of the DC project going directly into some hate organization or something? As long as he's not putting that shit in Superman I don't see why the guy shouldn't be allowed to earn a living.

Well seeing as how he is the member of a hate organization, I'd assume he donates some of his money that way.

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

Would you take that position if instead of a famous (and I suppose wealthy, or at least well-to-do) author, he was some unknown person employeed as a janitor, who had made anit-gay remarks in public (but not while on the clock, or on his employer's premises)?

Why would I waste my time caring about janitors?

It's not clear to me why anyone would waste their time caring about Orson Scott Card.

[garbon]

Bankrolling what? Putting food on the table for his kids? Are the profits of the DC project going directly into some hate organization or something? As long as he's not putting that shit in Superman I don't see why the guy shouldn't be allowed to earn a living.

Well seeing as how he is the member of a hate organization, I'd assume he donates some of his money that way.

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

Would you take that position if instead of a famous (and I suppose wealthy, or at least well-to-do) author, he was some unknown person employeed as a janitor, who had made anit-gay remarks in public (but not while on the clock, or on his employer's premises)?

Why would I waste my time caring about janitors?

It's not clear to me why anyone would waste their time caring about Orson Scott Card.

Because he is making money and I guess they care about Superman comics?

[Viking]

He can say what he wants - but that doesn't mean gays have to fund his lifestyle.

I still don't think you have addressed the concern I raised about the difference between boycotting a product and demanding that the publisher not publish the product. Do you think that they are functionally identical?

Not to mention the issue of whether the man can separate his personal political and religious views from his work.

[garbon]

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

And that's why every fag in the world has to die or be cured.  With that kind of trash, tolerance is always a one-way street.

He can say what he wants - but that doesn't mean gays have to fund his lifestyle.

Yes, they do.  That's what tolerance is all about.

So do I not tolerate you as I don't give you money?

[CountDeMoney]

Get back to lesbian Batgirls, dammit.

[Neil]

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

And that's why every fag in the world has to die or be cured.  With that kind of trash, tolerance is always a one-way street.

He can say what he wants - but that doesn't mean gays have to fund his lifestyle.

Yes, they do.  That's what tolerance is all about.

So do I not tolerate you as I don't give you money?

No.  I tolerate you because I don't try and get you fired and do my level best to eliminate any way for you to earn a living.

[garbon]

[Viking]

Get back to lesbian Batgirls, dammit.

Do your own damn googling. Rule 34 is your friend.

[dps]

He can say what he wants - but that doesn't mean gays have to fund his lifestyle.

I still don't think you have addressed the concern I raised about the difference between boycotting a product and demanding that the publisher not publish the product. Do you think that they are functionally identical?

Not to mention the issue of whether the man can separate his personal political and religious views from his work.

Actually, I don't think that there's a demand that DC not publish the comic, but that they get someone else to write it.

[Viking]

He can say what he wants - but that doesn't mean gays have to fund his lifestyle.

I still don't think you have addressed the concern I raised about the difference between boycotting a product and demanding that the publisher not publish the product. Do you think that they are functionally identical?

Not to mention the issue of whether the man can separate his personal political and religious views from his work.

Actually, I don't think that there's a demand that DC not publish the comic, but that they get someone else to write it.

If there is any doubt, when I refer to the product I mean the the story as written by OSC, not the whole project of which OSC's story is merely one bit.

[Ideologue]

Okay, I'm not really into Comics, but why not just have Batman age and be replaced by a new Batman.  Like by Robin or some long lost relative.  Or just make him really fucking old.

Bruce Wayne died (well... the reality is more complicated and too goofy to go into here) and was replaced by Dick Grayson.  That was cool, as Grayson has a much different (and more interesting) personality than Wayne, and this briefly made me interested in Batman.  Unfortunately, it didn't last.  At DC, it never does.  The replacement Flash, Green Lantern, and Green Arrow had already been retired or marginalized in favor of their previously dead, and always duller, predecessors.  I sort of understood the latter two, but it surprised me a lot when they did it to Wally West (the Flash) since he was the Flash all but the oldest comic book nerds grew up with, and Barry Allen (his predecessor, first appearing in 1956, and dying in 1985) is inferior in pretty much all respects.

[Ideologue]

They're also pretty much not remotely similar characters.  Kane's a DADT reject from the U.S. Army whose mother and (she believed at the time) sister got killed by terrorists--put the two together and she felt like her only option was beating people up while dressed in a costume.  Barbara Gordon was a thrillseeker who started fighting crime for kicks and whose mother left her father because he was a terrible husband (and then at some point she retired, but the Joker crippled her in her non-Batgirl capacity, and she started working with computers and became Oracle--then they fucked that up and made her Batgirl again for no obvious reason, though her decades-long paraplegia was increasingly silly in the wider world of the DC universe and its various applications of super-science).

BWs lesbianism is her raison d'etre. Apart from her lesbianism she is merely a "generic superhero".  BG's desire to please/help her real and adopted father's is hers.

At the time of the new 52 Re-Boot Barbra Gordon was oracle and in love with Robin1/Nightwing. Stephanie Brown was batgirl. There were competing ideas. e.g. keep Stephanie as BG and Barbra as Oracle. And rumor has it lesbian batgirl was considered and canned.

While the backstories are different you did end up with a completely new Batwoman complete with batgirl style costume, batgirl style adopting the identity without batmans permission, batgirl style winning his grudging respect, batgirl style daddy issues (you forgot how her father's job at DHS type agency got her the starting kit), batgirl style lawenforcement daddy under stress, batgirl style lack of mother. The main difference is the lack of the batgirl style optimistic personality (which makes her likable), batgirl style vulnerability (she is a little girl/small woman) and the lack of a batgirl style "he's like a brother"/"i've always been in love with" confusing with grayson.

Do away with Barbra Gordon's childish bits and make her a lesbian with batman's fashon sense and you have batwoman.

The militarism inherent in Batwoman is different.

What I do like about batgirl is that she truly has no advantages, she has no powers, she doesn't have innate skills or money (at least when she starts). She also doesn't have a creation trauma. She does it because it is the right thing to do and at one point before the killing joke she does come to her senses and retires. If batman is determined and focused and rich, she is spirited and hopeful.

Sure, that can be fun.  Ted Kord was the same way (except he was in fact rich), doing superheroism for kicks.

I stopped reading Batwoman at the end of Hydrology, so I don't know if she killed anybody. The artwork was beautiful but I just couldn't get myself to care about the character.

Different strokes.  I thought she was pretty interesting.  But the Williams art is the main draw--and I do think Williams has the ability to plot competently and definitely the ability to conjure up stories demanding interest imagery.  Still, his scripts are a little weak.  I'd say I'd wished Rucka had stuck around to continue to write his co-creation, but then Rucka, while always readable, isn't going to wow anyone either.

Anyway, I preferred both teenage and pregnant Batgirl and breath (all kinds) and martial arts (all kinds) Batgirl to Barbara Gordon, whom I never particularly cared about, but especially when she became Oracle (I HAVE A MAGIC COMPUTER).  Unfortunately, I forget what they even did with Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain they ruined very early on by giving her the ability to speak via telepathy/plot convenience, hence disposing themselves of any and all of the inherently interesting elements they'd set up with a mute/quasi-feral woman.