An "anti gay" story I am conflicted about

[Viking]

the suggestion that they make Batgirl a lesbian,

Well, hello.

Harley Quinn taking a strap on to batgirl? I'd buy that.

took me about 25 seconds to find that...

[Viking]

the suggestion that they make Batgirl a lesbian,

Well, hello.

Today's Kathy Kane doesn't look a think like the original and (like batgirl) has a batlike costume (no yellow) and like batgirl has long red hair (though the long hair in the costume is a wig). Batgirl actually does observe that people mix them up.

[Ideologue]

They're also pretty much not remotely similar characters.  Kane's a DADT reject from the U.S. Army whose mother and (she believed at the time) sister got killed by terrorists--put the two together and she felt like her only option was beating people up while dressed in a costume.  Barbara Gordon was a thrillseeker who started fighting crime for kicks and whose mother left her father because he was a terrible husband (and then at some point she retired, but the Joker crippled her in her non-Batgirl capacity, and she started working with computers and became Oracle--then they fucked that up and made her Batgirl again for no obvious reason, though her decades-long paraplegia was increasingly silly in the wider world of the DC universe and its various applications of super-science).

I lost track of Batwoman when JH Williams III took a vacation from the title.  Has she wound up killing anybody yet?  The whole Batman rule thing, while stupid in any context and especially in a context where you're bludgeoning people in the head on a frequent basis, seems even sillier when applied to a former soldier whose morality clearly encompasses justifiable killing.  They were actually, perhaps, leading up to that when I dropped out, since she'd been co-opted by the federal government.  This is interesting, since the last time Batman showed up in her comic, he revealed that he does indeed hate our troops.

I also wonder--if the character is enduring--how comic book time will mess up Kate Kane's origins.  Getting shitcanned from Westpoint or wherever she was for fucking girls when you are a girl is confined to a pretty particular time.  There's no "OK, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are Korean War vets now"-style handwave.  In ten or fifteen years, she'll have to be forty, because DADT stopped being a thing last year.  And not only is it specific, but it's also integral, since in the event there was no DADT dismissal, there's no reason she isn't enhancing our interrogation techniques in Afghanistan.  Then again, this is the same company that, during their recent reboot, decided it was no issue for Batman to have had five Robins in a whole career spanning five to, at most, ten years.

[dps]

Bankrolling what? Putting food on the table for his kids? Are the profits of the DC project going directly into some hate organization or something? As long as he's not putting that shit in Superman I don't see why the guy shouldn't be allowed to earn a living.

Well seeing as how he is the member of a hate organization, I'd assume he donates some of his money that way.

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

Would you take that position if instead of a famous (and I suppose wealthy, or at least well-to-do) author, he was some unknown person employeed as a janitor, who had made anit-gay remarks in public (but not while on the clock, or on his employer's premises)?

[dps]

I also wonder--if the character is enduring--how comic book time will mess up Kate Kane's origins.  Getting shitcanned from Westpoint or wherever she was for fucking girls when you are a girl is confined to a pretty particular time.  There's no "OK, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are Korean War vets now"-style handwave.  In ten or fifteen years, she'll have to be forty, because DADT stopped being a thing last year.  And not only is it specific, but it's also integral, since in the event there was no DADT dismissal, there's no reason she isn't enhancing our interrogation techniques in Afghanistan.  Then again, this is the same company that, during their recent reboot, decided it was no issue for Batman to have had five Robins in a whole career spanning five to, at most, ten years.

Very easy to retcon another reason for her to get tossed from the academy, while still leaving her a lesbian.

[Ideologue]

Except those reasons would leave her at fault, when the point was that she was blamelessly prevented from serving her country/her community/justice.

[dps]

Except those reasons would leave her at fault, when the point was that she was blamelessly prevented from serving her country/her community/justice.

Not necessarily.  She could have been wrongly found guilty of some misconduct.

[Razgovory]

Okay, I'm not really into Comics, but why not just have Batman age and be replaced by a new Batman.  Like by Robin or some long lost relative.  Or just make him really fucking old.

[Viking]

They're also pretty much not remotely similar characters.  Kane's a DADT reject from the U.S. Army whose mother and (she believed at the time) sister got killed by terrorists--put the two together and she felt like her only option was beating people up while dressed in a costume.  Barbara Gordon was a thrillseeker who started fighting crime for kicks and whose mother left her father because he was a terrible husband (and then at some point she retired, but the Joker crippled her in her non-Batgirl capacity, and she started working with computers and became Oracle--then they fucked that up and made her Batgirl again for no obvious reason, though her decades-long paraplegia was increasingly silly in the wider world of the DC universe and its various applications of super-science).

BWs lesbianism is her raison d'etre. Apart from her lesbianism she is merely a "generic superhero".  BG's desire to please/help her real and adopted father's is hers.

At the time of the new 52 Re-Boot Barbra Gordon was oracle and in love with Robin1/Nightwing. Stephanie Brown was batgirl. There were competing ideas. e.g. keep Stephanie as BG and Barbra as Oracle. And rumor has it lesbian batgirl was considered and canned.

While the backstories are different you did end up with a completely new Batwoman complete with batgirl style costume, batgirl style adopting the identity without batmans permission, batgirl style winning his grudging respect, batgirl style daddy issues (you forgot how her father's job at DHS type agency got her the starting kit), batgirl style lawenforcement daddy under stress, batgirl style lack of mother. The main difference is the lack of the batgirl style optimistic personality (which makes her likable), batgirl style vulnerability (she is a little girl/small woman) and the lack of a batgirl style "he's like a brother"/"i've always been in love with" confusing with grayson.

Do away with Barbra Gordon's childish bits and make her a lesbian with batman's fashon sense and you have batwoman.

What I do like about batgirl is that she truly has no advantages, she has no powers, she doesn't have innate skills or money (at least when she starts). She also doesn't have a creation trauma. She does it because it is the right thing to do and at one point before the killing joke she does come to her senses and retires. If batman is determined and focused and rich, she is spirited and hopeful.

I lost track of Batwoman when JH Williams III took a vacation from the title.  Has she wound up killing anybody yet?  The whole Batman rule thing, while stupid in any context and especially in a context where you're bludgeoning people in the head on a frequent basis, seems even sillier when applied to a former soldier whose morality clearly encompasses justifiable killing.  They were actually, perhaps, leading up to that when I dropped out, since she'd been co-opted by the federal government.  This is interesting, since the last time Batman showed up in her comic, he revealed that he does indeed hate our troops.

I also wonder--if the character is enduring--how comic book time will mess up Kate Kane's origins.  Getting shitcanned from Westpoint or wherever she was for fucking girls when you are a girl is confined to a pretty particular time.  There's no "OK, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are Korean War vets now"-style handwave.  In ten or fifteen years, she'll have to be forty, because DADT stopped being a thing last year.  And not only is it specific, but it's also integral, since in the event there was no DADT dismissal, there's no reason she isn't enhancing our interrogation techniques in Afghanistan.  Then again, this is the same company that, during their recent reboot, decided it was no issue for Batman to have had five Robins in a whole career spanning five to, at most, ten years.

I stopped reading Batwoman at the end of Hydrology, so I don't know if she killed anybody. The artwork was beautiful but I just couldn't get myself to care about the character.

[Viking]

Okay, I'm not really into Comics, but why not just have Batman age and be replaced by a new Batman.  Like by Robin or some long lost relative.  Or just make him really fucking old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Beyond_(comics)

[Viking]

Except those reasons would leave her at fault, when the point was that she was blamelessly prevented from serving her country/her community/justice.

Make her short and unable to match the height requirement. That worked fine to blamelessly prevent Barbra Gordon from serving country/gotham/justice as a police officer.

[Martinus]

How the fuck did this thread got derailed into Batman talk?

[garbon]

Bankrolling what? Putting food on the table for his kids? Are the profits of the DC project going directly into some hate organization or something? As long as he's not putting that shit in Superman I don't see why the guy shouldn't be allowed to earn a living.

Well seeing as how he is the member of a hate organization, I'd assume he donates some of his money that way.

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

Would you take that position if instead of a famous (and I suppose wealthy, or at least well-to-do) author, he was some unknown person employeed as a janitor, who had made anit-gay remarks in public (but not while on the clock, or on his employer's premises)?

Why would I waste my time caring about janitors?

On the not flippant side - I think you might be missing the point. I don't think people are protesting because he is famous (though certainly you have to know of someone to protest them - which would be hard with an unknown janitor) but as Card has written many articles about the evils of homosexuality and is on the board for NOM.  Highly unlikely that this unknown janitor would be do either of those. 

So without more details, I can only say it would depend on what sort of remarks, to whom, and what their reach was.

[Viking]

How the fuck did this thread got derailed into Batman talk?

Well.. Crazy Mormon fundies are more interesting the abused children in turkey
batgirl as a lesbian is more interesting than crazy mormon fundies
nerdrage about whether batwoman is derivative or not is more interesting than batgirl as a lesbian

thats how.

[Neil]

I don't see anything wrong with people calling for a bigot to be drummed out of town, so to speak. DC doesn't need to agree but I don't see anything wrong with people who don't want to see bigots hired.

And that's why every fag in the world has to die or be cured.  With that kind of trash, tolerance is always a one-way street.