Endemic Sexual Abuse in State institutions in Ireland

[Cerr]

The problem of course is that the religious orders mentions don't have a whole lot of money besides what is tied up in various churches, schools and hospitals.  Plus if you want victims to get their money anytime soon the government is the only likely source.

I don't think that's true. The Catholic church is one of the biggest land and property owners in the country. They also sold some of their holdings at the height of the property boom. It's one of the wealthiest instutions in Ireland.
If they don't have the money to pay in full, some of their land and property should be taken by the State.

[Cerr]

Just nuke the whole cursed island and be done with it.

Please wait until August, when I'm off the island.

Your 'Merican Friend,

Ed

Where are you going in Ireland?

[Barrister]

The problem of course is that the religious orders mentions don't have a whole lot of money besides what is tied up in various churches, schools and hospitals.  Plus if you want victims to get their money anytime soon the government is the only likely source.

I don't think that's true. The Catholic church is one of the biggest land and property owners in the country. They also sold some of their holdings at the height of the property boom. It's one of the wealthiest instutions in Ireland.
If they don't have the money to pay in full, some of their land and property should be taken by the State.

But look at what those property holdings are: as I mentioned they are almost entirely tied up in churches, hospitals, and schools.  At least in this country.  Is the Catholic Church over there a big landowner in terms of agricultural or commercial property?

[Cerr]

One of the victims of the scandal spoke on a current affairs TV show last night. It's well worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4&feature=channel_page

[Ed Anger]

Just nuke the whole cursed island and be done with it.

Please wait until August, when I'm off the island.

Your 'Merican Friend,

Ed

Where are you going in Ireland?

County Cork for a few days, then County Donegal for a few. Staying with my wife's cousins, so I'd have to look up the towns. I think one in Donegal is in Ballyshannon.

I'm going to use my spare time to stalk follow the Corr sisters. 

[Martinus]

One of the victims of the scandal spoke on a current affairs TV show last night. It's well worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4&feature=channel_page

Amazing and moving.

[Martinus]

The problem of course is that the religious orders mentions don't have a whole lot of money besides what is tied up in various churches, schools and hospitals.  Plus if you want victims to get their money anytime soon the government is the only likely source.

I don't think that's true. The Catholic church is one of the biggest land and property owners in the country. They also sold some of their holdings at the height of the property boom. It's one of the wealthiest instutions in Ireland.
If they don't have the money to pay in full, some of their land and property should be taken by the State.

But look at what those property holdings are: as I mentioned they are almost entirely tied up in churches, hospitals, and schools.  At least in this country.  Is the Catholic Church over there a big landowner in terms of agricultural or commercial property?

That's like saying companies should not be liable for their crimes, because all they own are factories and offices, and they need these to do their work properly.

Fuck the Church. If they don't have money to pay (which I find surprising) then auction all the jewelry, artwork and church buildings they have. If people still trust them, they will donate for them to recover. If not, then all the pedophiles in Vatican (with the ruling Pope himself implicated in the coverup of the American scandal) can bail them out.

[Barrister]

The problem of course is that the religious orders mentions don't have a whole lot of money besides what is tied up in various churches, schools and hospitals.  Plus if you want victims to get their money anytime soon the government is the only likely source.

I don't think that's true. The Catholic church is one of the biggest land and property owners in the country. They also sold some of their holdings at the height of the property boom. It's one of the wealthiest instutions in Ireland.
If they don't have the money to pay in full, some of their land and property should be taken by the State.

But look at what those property holdings are: as I mentioned they are almost entirely tied up in churches, hospitals, and schools.  At least in this country.  Is the Catholic Church over there a big landowner in terms of agricultural or commercial property?

That's like saying companies should not be liable for their crimes, because all they own are factories and offices, and they need these to do their work properly.

That's not a very useful analogy.

First we're talking about civil liability, not criminal liability.  While crimes were certainly committed by the priests and lay breatheren, and that constitutes civil liability through the doctrine of an employer's vicarious liability, that doctrine does NOT apply to criminal liability.  As far as I'm aware the Catholic Church has never been found to be criminally responsible from abuse arising at church-run schools.

Second, there's a rather huge difference between a for-profit company and a non-profit like the Catholic Church.  If a for-profit company gets punishingly large damage award against it it, assuming its still profitable, can earn money over time to pay it off.  Or it can sell assets to a competitor who will then continue making widgets under a different brand name.

But a non-profit like the Catholic Church can't do either.  It's only ability to earn money is through donations, and if parishoners know that the collection plate isn't going towards the church, but to some nameless abuse victim they're not going to empty their wallets.  If they were going to they'd be giving that money directly to victims groups, wouldn't they?

Then their only other option is to sell assets.  But there's no competitor here.  There's no other group waiting in the wings to buy a Catholic Church and turn it into a Protestant Church.  No group waiting to buy a hospital and run it as a hospital. 

Third, and finally, I certainly never said they shouldn't pay any money.  But only that their ability to pay is limited and in the real world you needed to realize that.

[Valmy]

That's like saying companies should not be liable for their crimes, because all they own are factories and offices, and they need these to do their work properly.

  How is that like saying that at all Mart?  He said the Church does not have any commericial property and then you say that is like saying a company only has commercial property?  Huh?

[DontSayBanana]

That's like saying companies should not be liable for their crimes, because all they own are factories and offices, and they need these to do their work properly.

Fuck the Church. If they don't have money to pay (which I find surprising) then auction all the jewelry, artwork and church buildings they have. If people still trust them, they will donate for them to recover. If not, then all the pedophiles in Vatican (with the ruling Pope himself implicated in the coverup of the American scandal) can bail them out.

The gauntlet has been thrown down; Marti has presented an Analogy.

If you're going to insist on viewing the Catholic church as an employment hierarchy, the actual offenders were fairly low on the totem pole. You don't take an employer's business away for not prosecuting an employee's offense, even when it was committed on the clock.

[Martinus]

Calling the catholic church a "non profit" organization is... ok I just couldn't find an appropriate analogy. 

[Martinus]

That's like saying companies should not be liable for their crimes, because all they own are factories and offices, and they need these to do their work properly.

Fuck the Church. If they don't have money to pay (which I find surprising) then auction all the jewelry, artwork and church buildings they have. If people still trust them, they will donate for them to recover. If not, then all the pedophiles in Vatican (with the ruling Pope himself implicated in the coverup of the American scandal) can bail them out.

The gauntlet has been thrown down; Marti has presented an Analogy.

If you're going to insist on viewing the Catholic church as an employment hierarchy, the actual offenders were fairly low on the totem pole. You don't take an employer's business away for not prosecuting an employee's offense, even when it was committed on the clock.

They weren't low on the totem pole. The cover up extended to high ups.

[Valmy]

If you're going to insist on viewing the Catholic church as an employment hierarchy, the actual offenders were fairly low on the totem pole. You don't take an employer's business away for not prosecuting an employee's offense, even when it was committed on the clock.

The hierarchy is pretty fucking liable for the whole mess as they seem to have known about it and tried to cover it up.

Under the circumstances, being a huge bureaucracy where the thing they have to be legitimate is moral authority, I can understand who that might happen but this is hardly a case of a few Priests and Nuns behaving badly but a systemic problem that came from the top.  The bad apples were simply allowed to stay bad apples and were protected.

[Valmy]

Calling the catholic church a "non profit" organization is...

It is.  They run schools and other social services.

Heck they have done amazing work to help out the struggling Texas social services and they make zero demands you even be religious.  The church does great work.  I will forever be grateful for what the church has done to support us when the State only makes our lives miserable.

They also do fucked up things, that is a nature of a huge and authoritarian system that they have.

[Martinus]

That's like saying companies should not be liable for their crimes, because all they own are factories and offices, and they need these to do their work properly.

  How is that like saying that at all Mart?  He said the Church does not have any commericial property and then you say that is like saying a company only has commercial property?  Huh?

How are churches not a commercial property? They provide a service and collect money in return.

Only because individual churches may be running at a loss doesn't make them non-commercial. The catholic church is one of the richest institutions globally - surely a "non-profit" organization wouldn't be able to pull that off.